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"Apprenticeship" compared to "Recording School"? Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 17th September 2010
  #91
Gear Nut
 

Probably a good idea holding onto your other job.
Old 20th September 2010
  #92
Gear Maniac
 

Your probably right. At least the course is part time so no problem there. While I'm in the studio I'm not in the bar
Old 22nd September 2010
  #93
Gear Nut
 

Just means you have to listen more, study harder, work more intensely and pay more attention to what people are telling you. Sounds good to me.
Old 23rd September 2010
  #94
Gear Nut
 

Probably be a good idea to read some industry magazines and visit studios and basically sell yourself to them. Update your resume.
Old 24th September 2010
  #95
Gear Nut
 

Someone posted this on another forum. Wise words indeed.

Sure. Lots of engineers have learned from watching / apprenticing with established engineers. It was the more "traditional" learning path in this career for years, although the opportunities to do it in the old way have largely dried up. If you apprenticed with someone like George Massenburg, Phil Ramone or Bruce Swedien, I guarantee you'd learn a ton of stuff... but only if you were sharp enough to keep up, and only if you worked your butt off and applied yourself.

And knowledge is only part of what it takes to "make it" as an engineer. You need incredibly good "people skills". You also need a good BS meter and business savvy. You need drive, motivation and good self-promotional skills. Having good ears and artistic and musical "taste" doesn't hurt either... and some of that stuff really can't be taught. And even the stuff that can be taught is stuff you have to have an aptitude for if you are going to have any realistic chance at excelling and standing out from the crowd enough to be one of the few who actually beats the odds and gets / still has a job in a recording related field five years after you finish your studies.

And studying never ends in this business... and the folks who have been around for a while tend to the fresh "recording school grads" who think they've "learned it all".

Like I said, today, more than ever, you have to find your own road map, your own path to success in this field, and no two paths will be identical. The hard work, dedication, time, study and aptitude aspects are something that most will have in common though.
Old 24th September 2010
  #96
Lives for gear
You will also need a good grounding in academic knowledge in electronics, music, IT and acoustics. Unfortunately, most recording schools do not provide these - but you will need them nevertheless!
Old 27th September 2010
  #97
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
You will also need a good grounding in academic knowledge in electronics, music, IT and acoustics. Unfortunately, most recording schools do not provide these - but you will need them nevertheless!
Where would be the best place to acquire this knowledge?
Old 27th September 2010
  #98
Lives for gear
 
NF Audio's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faye Clamor View Post
Where would be the best place to acquire this knowledge?
The library is a good place to start...
Old 28th September 2010
  #99
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NF Audio View Post
The library is a good place to start...
Thank you, any particular titles to look out for?
Old 28th September 2010
  #100
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faye Clamor View Post
Where would be the best place to acquire this knowledge?
One method would be to start with college websites. Pick a school and course of your liking, and if you can't find a list of required reading directly on the website, then move on to its college bookstore website.
Old 29th September 2010
  #101
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by licopin View Post
One method would be to start with college websites. Pick a school and course of your liking, and if you can't find a list of required reading directly on the website, then move on to its college bookstore website.
Thank you.
Old 30th September 2010
  #102
Gear Maniac
 

My problem is that I work and fit my recording connection course in my free time. I don't see how I will be able to work another course without quitting my day job, and I can't afford to do that.
Old 5th October 2010
  #103
Gear Nut
 

I would advise that you do some research. Inquire about prices, schedules etc.
Old 6th October 2010
  #104
Gear Maniac
 

I would love to go back to university/ college and get a degree, but unfortunately when you start working your priorities change. Especially in the current economic climate, jobs don't jump out and grab you. So if you have a job (even a crap one) you want to hold on to it. Luxuries like further education have to take a back seat, unless the price is right, the curriculum is flexible and the possible rewards are there at the end. I can just about swing the RC program but I doubt if I could do a full degree course, not on my wages.
Old 7th October 2010
  #105
Gear Nut
 

Like I said, do some research. Get costs etc.
Old 7th October 2010
  #106
Gear Maniac
 

I'm going to impart some wisdom into this thread for people.

Strictly from a music production standpoint, its beyond saturation with professionals, professionals who can't quit their other job, posers, and recording hobbyists. Getting a job at a legit place is extremely difficult unless you get yourself on the shortlist because you have a relationship with someone there already. Smaller studios usually ride solo, and won't hire even if they know you, like you, and know you're fresh, smart, and have a lot of ideas and innovation to bring to the table.

If we look at the current market out there right now. Money is tight with customers. Its pretty cutthroat top to bottom out there on the totem pole of recording options. So, keep in mind that pay is never going to be rewarding enough for most people. So, if you want to get into this then be prepared to live with the fact that you'll never make a whole lot of money. On that note, be prepared to live with the fact that you may never be a homeowner, purchase a car as often as other people in different professions do, find it difficult to make yourself available for family or significant other, difficulty in appearing "successful" from the view of your family or significant other.

So, pretty much right now school makes little to no sense at all from a music production standpoint, then again it doesn't make too much sense walking into recording studios asking for an apprenticeship either when theres tons of guys out there who are willing to take out of trash just to be in the room and they know a lot more then you do, so they don't need to be taught too much.

The best thing you can do for yourself if you still want to get into it is to not quit your day job and do a sort of a independent study.

Right now is a great time to just save up and buy an Mbox, Video camera, and Final cut and be creative while you hold a job or working on your general ed in college. Just ask lots of questions to anybody and everybody who you come into contact with who knows how to use them and absorb all the free information you can. Once you feel like you can produce something that looks and sounds professional, do it and start building a portfolio. Once you do that for a while, you can then determine weather or not you can go out there and look for work professionally or if you need to go to a school.


If you people are curious about what it takes to make it into Post Production or Interactive entertainment (video games and such). A bachelor's degree and an impressive portfolio in an young, and early career is absolutely necessary. No exceptions. I was helping my boss last week sort through resumes cause we're looking for a couple young new hires, and I asked what he wanted me to throw out, and he told me "Obvious things like spelling errors when you see them, but its a whole lot easier to just go to their education section and see if they have a degree at all. If they don't, throw it out. Its the first thing I do."

Heres 2 things everyone (even professionals out there now) also need to work on. Forget all that other technical stuff.

Communication
Ability to let everything roll off their shoulders

Also, one last thing.

Go to professional conferences. They are worth every cent.
Old 7th October 2010
  #107
Lives for gear
I haven't done anything for the Recording Connection in a while, but I have have done several for them. Most were ok, one was hopeless.

Because RC was paying me I did spend more time with their kid than other interns. The mentor does have to turn in weekly assignments and review them with the intern, so there is one on one time.

That being said, their curriculum is no where near comprehensive enough to really teach anything. Its totally up to the instructor to fill in huge gaps for it to mean anything. Point being, with the exception of a couple of hours a week reviewing their course material, its an internship anyway.

One BENEFIT of the RC program is that you PAY for it,and therefore take it seriously. Silly as it seems, Most interns I see these days try to skate through and end up quitting of being asked not to come back.

It seems to me that those with an aptitude for this kind of work get it by osmosis. I do see some value in a school that really teaches the nuts and bolts stuff followed by internship. If you want to try the Recording connection, remember that the ballgame is the instructor. Check him out really well, and make sure you get along with him before commtting.
Old 12th October 2010
  #108
Gear Nut
 

Seems like an honest appraisal from someone who actually knows.
Old 12th October 2010
  #109
Similar choices in commercial photography

There are a lot of similarities between a recording studio production and commercial photography (my day job). One can assist in a studio, or go to school to learn. My experience showed me that assisting taught me more about photography, faster and better than any school would've.

In a school, you can work your ass off, make mistakes, have successes, toke the bong while studying, blow off classes, take out loans, learn from books and have a professor lean over your shoulder while working the mix, but in the end none of it is crucial to your livelihood. It's not real life. The consequences are a good or bad grade.

As an assistant, your ass is on the line every day. The stakes are much higher than at school. Either you learn by listening, watching and asking smart questions or you find a new job. As an assistant, I was expected to "get it" the first time, and to work with that new knowledge ever day.

As an assistant, I got paid ****, but I learned not only how to prep a studio, but how to listen to a client when they react to an image for the first time. I learned how to cost out a job, how to deal with models and stylists and where to find the best bagels. I learned how to serve the client to get them the best results possible.

After two years as an assistant, I knew more and could make better photos than graduates of nationally ranked photography schools. I'd made a few pennies doing it, while they'd spent $100,000 to learn it. To me it was a no-brainer.

There are many people who thrive in a school institution. They feel protected, they feel they can make mistakes and learn from them and it's money well spent to have that safety net. There have been many photographers coming out of school who've gone on to very successful careers.

But I'll take an apprenticeship any day.
Old 13th October 2010
  #110
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post
There are a lot of similarities between a recording studio production and commercial photography (my day job). One can assist in a studio, or go to school to learn. My experience showed me that assisting taught me more about photography, faster and better than any school would've.

In a school, you can work your ass off, make mistakes, have successes, toke the bong while studying, blow off classes, take out loans, learn from books and have a professor lean over your shoulder while working the mix, but in the end none of it is crucial to your livelihood. It's not real life. The consequences are a good or bad grade.

As an assistant, your ass is on the line every day. The stakes are much higher than at school. Either you learn by listening, watching and asking smart questions or you find a new job. As an assistant, I was expected to "get it" the first time, and to work with that new knowledge ever day.

As an assistant, I got paid ****, but I learned not only how to prep a studio, but how to listen to a client when they react to an image for the first time. I learned how to cost out a job, how to deal with models and stylists and where to find the best bagels. I learned how to serve the client to get them the best results possible.

After two years as an assistant, I knew more and could make better photos than graduates of nationally ranked photography schools. I'd made a few pennies doing it, while they'd spent $100,000 to learn it. To me it was a no-brainer.

There are many people who thrive in a school institution. They feel protected, they feel they can make mistakes and learn from them and it's money well spent to have that safety net. There have been many photographers coming out of school who've gone on to very successful careers.

But I'll take an apprenticeship any day.
Thats what I have been saying about places such as RC. You are treated like an intern and work alongside the studio crew.
Old 14th October 2010
  #111
Gear Maniac
 

I'm definitely one of those guys who achieves better results by actually doing the work, rather than reading up on it in a classroom. Always have been, even at school.
Old 14th October 2010
  #112
Lives for gear
 

You also need not to be the type of person who pretty much asks ''how do i rekord drumz?!' or ''wuts better this or this'' on a site probably called something like ''gearn00bz'' or ''gearslutz''

the best response is ''if you have to ask''
Old 15th October 2010
  #113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrislpp View Post
You also need not to be the type of person who pretty much asks ''how do i rekord drumz?!'
My experience in college was that any question could bring the class to a halt while the prof or grad student explained their answer. I remember sitting in a Mech. Eng. class and one student just couldn't get her head around the problem at hand. The class ground to a halt and nothing was accomplished. Those of us interested in a complete explanation went to the T.A.'s office for "enlightenment".

This would never happen in a production situation. There is some level of working knowledge an assistant is expected to have.

My first time assisting in a Detroit photo studio I was told to "blacken the wheel wells" of the vehicle we were photographing. I gave a blank look and confessed to ignorance. The photographer then picked up a can of Krylon Flat Black paint and sprayed then entire wheel well. On a Chevy prototype. That's when he said he'd give me a week to see if I could "catch on".

There is a huge difference between an educational institution and apprenticeship.
Old 19th October 2010
  #114
Gear Nut
 

If I'm unsure about anything I will always ask rather than pretend to know. The latter will always come up and bite you in the ass. I always bring a notepad and make loads of notes and diagrams.
Old 20th October 2010
  #115
Gear Maniac
 

[QUOTE=CB_Photo;5895098
My first time assisting in a Detroit photo studio I was told to "blacken the wheel wells" of the vehicle we were photographing. I gave a blank look and confessed to ignorance. The photographer then picked up a can of Krylon Flat Black paint and sprayed then entire wheel well. On a Chevy prototype. That's when he said he'd give me a week to see if I could "catch on".

There is a huge difference between an educational institution and apprenticeship.[/QUOTE]

The question is did you "catch on?"
Old 20th October 2010
  #116
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldeneye13 View Post
The question is did you "catch on?"
Yup. At first I was astonished at what photographers did to make a shot. Nothing is real. As soon as I understood that (by the 4th day), then it was much easier to know what was needed on the set, and my questions became more informed.
Old 21st October 2010
  #117
Gear Maniac
 

So basically after a few days you were still asking questions, the difference was that the questions you asked were much more relevant and productive. Sounds good to me.
Old 21st October 2010
  #118
Lives for gear
 
Beyersound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon View Post
The best way, aside from luck and connections, to get paid decently for this is to be very good. How you get there is up to you.

Probably the best way, and certainly the time-tested one, is to apprentice under a master engineer and mentor.

Whether you need to go to school in order to help create that situation is a decision only you can make.

My experience has been that most people fresh out of recording school know little of practical use in the real studio. Typical weak spots are maintenance trouble-shooting and repair, soldering, signal flow, electrical schematics and wiring, session psychology, session documentation, ATR alignment/bias/azimuth, timecode/sync/LTC/MTC expertise, console automation, scales/solfege/music theory, and a calm, can-do, no-problem attitude.

You should realize that rec school grads who want to be in high-end music recording usually start out as unpaid interns, then runners, then assistants.

There is a lot of competition to get into the very limited number of high-end pro studio situations. People who aren't that motivated or who need paying gigs right away to survive usually end up in project or home studio situations, or they migrate to post/jingle/film/multimedia or even to audio sales (Sweetwater/GC, etc).

Good luck!
I would have to agree with you Jon, and the apprenticeship or assistant method would be the way to go. I didn't learn that way, but sometimes think it would have been a shorter path, and things were different 30+ years ago when I started.
Old 23rd October 2010
  #119
Here for the gear
 
Rob_Rose's Avatar
 

As someone who has taught at an Audio Recording School..

Everyone....You must think return on investment. There are a lot of online training centers and schools, which will provide you with just as much information as a high end school. These high end schools leave you with 50k in school debt and little to no job options really. One needs to really apply themselves and be a go getter to make a living in the audio field.
1. Get a sound Knowledge base
2. Get some certifications and some good references from people that you have interned for locally and lastly
3. Move to a mecha of recording like N.Y, L.A., Memphis, Miami.
Old 23rd October 2010
  #120
Lives for gear
 
AcoosticZoo's Avatar
why not do both?

Mostly our field ie. mixing engineer was created through experimentation and serious note taking of what worked. Then through years of experimentation stumbled upon cools tricks and techniques. Every engineer was trying to out do/improve on those gone b4 him/her. Long before they even had uni's teaching this stuff.

However, getting an apprenticeship isn't going to be easy, you'll need to show aptitude and talent. which is sorta catch 22.

If you're hungry for it, I guess study first, then learn and practice and improve yourself to the point where a master will be able to see you're future potential.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com
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