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Digi 003 - is Decent/Worth to buy?
Old 23rd August 2010
  #61
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I actually sold my Rosetta and I'm using the Digi003 ADDA...sounds totally fine. Using a Helios line in...
Old 23rd August 2010
  #62
Gear Maniac
 

Digi 003 - is Decent/Worth to buy?

I love my 003r. It's a great I/O, and can do 150% of what I need to do at my home studio with it.
Never had any issues with the actual 003, but for a little, I was having a hard time getting it to work with my old computer. Upgraded the computer, and now I have 0 issues.
Old 24th August 2010
  #63
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dustyreels's Avatar
 

It's nice to read positive posts about the 003. It seems like 90% of what I read on GS about it is negative. I use it all the time with great results. It will be a long time before I replace mine.
Old 24th August 2010
  #64
+1 for the 003. Overall, leaps and bounds better than the 002. Conversion is totally fine and the pres are totally usable. Given that its built in, its a pretty dang flexible monitor section. And it doesn't lack in sonic quality either.

Totally worth every penny, especially considering you can pick them up on ebay for as low as $650 [got mine for $600] .
Old 24th August 2010
  #65
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azriel_7 View Post
The problem with the BLA mod is if you decide to go with something else you lose your investment.
Hard to say how much it will add in the used market.
So far they more than hold their value, due to the months long wait and down time for the mod. No loss of investment at all.
Old 24th August 2010
  #66
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They hold personal value to you and many others but market value probably not. Try to sell a lynx 8 or a great river pre and see how much money you make back compared to what you spent when you make another purchase. Then compare that with a moded digi 003 you try to sell back used with the amount you put in. Then take those same things and try a year from now ect. you get the point.

If you buy a digi003, buy a used one at least. You'll probably just lose value every few months or year that goes by that way at least.
Old 24th August 2010
  #67
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg082 View Post
They hold personal value to you and many others but market value probably not. Try to sell a lynx 8 or a great river pre and see how much money you make back compared to what you spent when you make another purchase. Then compare that with a moded digi 003 you try to sell back used with the amount you put in. Then take those same things and try a year from now ect. you get the point.

If you buy a digi003, buy a used one at least. You'll probably just lose value every few months or year that goes by that way at least.
I'm talking about the fact that the price for a used 002R with the BLA signature mod is actually a bit more than what it costs to buy a used 002R and have it modded by BLA. Pretty cut and dried, I believe. This is not theoretical. I've been watching the prices. Of course, how long this holds true is anybody's guess.
Old 25th August 2010
  #68
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Bruno B's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg082 View Post
They hold personal value to you and many others but market value probably not. Try to sell a lynx 8 or a great river pre and see how much money you make back compared to what you spent when you make another purchase. Then compare that with a moded digi 003 you try to sell back used with the amount you put in. Then take those same things and try a year from now ect. you get the point.

If you buy a digi003, buy a used one at least. You'll probably just lose value every few months or year that goes by that way at least.
You're making it sound like it's real estate with all the market value and investment talk.

I buy something that makes me happy now. The gear is making me money and paying for itself so I don't have to worry about resale value. If you're really concerned about resale value of your gear, then buy used (as you mentioned) with all the other fun risks that come with that.

If the BLA 003 brings in more $$$ daily than a stock one, then you should come out better in the long run even if the BLA has worse resale value.

I like your gear advice, but not because of market value... because they're nice units! You're almost guaranteed to lose money when selling your gear. Cheap and expensive.

Anything you make from selling it later on is just a bonus.

-Bruno
Old 25th August 2010
  #69
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by-tor's Avatar
 

Love my 003. Sounds great. Line in and outs are VERY clean sounding.
Old 25th August 2010
  #70
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phas3d's Avatar
 

Sorry for not reading all the posts. If you want to work with Pro Tools and can't afford HD, get it. Sound wise, it really doesn't sound that good to to my hears.
Old 25th August 2010
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azriel_7 View Post
The people at BLA say that clocking externally and using different converters does not yield the same results
I don't think they do....that would be a daft thing to say, because it isn't true! You use your A2D and clock the 003 to that, and it'll sound exactly like the A2D feeding anything else - the 003 has no effect on the sound of course, when it's slaved to another device.
Old 25th August 2010
  #72
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I don't think they do....that would be a daft thing to say, because it isn't true! You use your A2D and clock the 003 to that, and it'll sound exactly like the A2D feeding anything else - the 003 has no effect on the sound of course, when it's slaved to another device.
I believe that that the concern is that jitter will increase with external connections in contrast to the extremely low 1 picosecond of jitter of the Signature modded clock.
Old 25th August 2010
  #73
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsvisser View Post
I have no complaints about the conversion, but the preamps. I either run Nagra or Millennia preamps into the line inputs or use a Nagra VI > ADAT AI4 > Lightpipe input for really critical stuff. There has been the occasion where I was in a hurry and didn't feel like setting up my outboard, just doing a backing vocal re-record or something, and when editing was like, damn, that was a mistake. Preamps are certainly useable, but for those that have high end options, tend to go unused.
You are probably right, but take into the account that the millenia pre is more expensive than the whole 003, and that is still a "only" a preamp.
Of course, the preamps are not the strongest point of this device...heh
But when I read that the pres are bashed against presonus, mackie, etc., honestly I cannot take it seriously.

Besides that (it not towards you of course) every avid thread rapidly becoming a bashing thread, without a real reason.
Old 25th August 2010
  #74
Myr
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Myr's Avatar
 

If your mixes and recordings sound **** with a 003, then there's a 99% chance that something else is causing the problem.
Old 25th August 2010
  #75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
I believe that that the concern is that jitter will increase with external connections in contrast to the extremely low 1 picosecond of jitter of the Signature modded clock.
The clock is only one part of the equation though.

Actually re-reading, if the quoted statement is true, they're saying their conversion is DIFFERENT to everything else out there, not better. Of course, different could mean worse. It's self evident that every device made is different to everything else. It's basically a meaningless statement, and not one I suspect BLA made themselves.

Now - returning to the subject of clocks, if I'm running an external AD converter, and clocking THAT internally - and just using the 003 as a digital IO - the clock is irrelevant to the 003 right? the conversion has already been done. If I clock the external converter to the 003 and still use that as my AD, then it's an external clock situation.
Old 25th August 2010
  #76
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Here's the whole copy from BLA's website. I remember seeing/hearing something about the increase in jitter using external clocking but it might have been in a phone conversation with them. Hope this helps. Probably a phone call to BLA would be the best opportunity for clarification.

THE TROUBLE WITH STOCK 002/003 RACKS
Let's be clear, the Digidesign 002 and 003 rack mounted firewire interfaces are a GREAT place to start your journey into the world of ProTools. But there are a few things about the stock system that prevent it from reaching its potential. At Black Lion Audio, we address these setbacks in the stock 002 and 003 racks, and turn these affordable interfaces into smooth, high definition, world-class recording devices.
In fact, some people claim their Black Lion Signature Racks sound better than an actual ProTools HD rig!
We think so too, but we'll leave that up to you to decide.

WHAT WE DO TO MAKE DYNAMIC IMPROVEMENTS IN SOUND

ANALOG STAGE AND PRE-AMP UPGRADE
The analog section of the circuitry is the path that the signal travels through before and after the converter stages. This includes the mic preamps, line inputs, headphone output, and line outputs. Improving the performance of these circuits improves sound quality by reducing noise and improving transient response (the audio sounds more detailed). We're fans of Burr Brown's OPA4134, and we substitute those for the TL074 opamps used in the mic preamp and line inputs. We're able to reduce analog stage noise created by the 002R/003R's phantom power circuitry as well as reducing the RF noise created by the stock switching power supply. These modifications result in a cleaner signal, with much more high end definition.

MASTER CLOCK UPGRADE
Basically, the master clock generates the signal that tells the converter when to trigger. The more accurate the clock signal, the more 'realistic' or 'defined' the converted audio signal will be. We install a high quality master clock to improve overall system response. This is a benefit that you can hear with your ears because a very accurate clock will create a very defined audio image with precise instrument placement. In spite of the fact that we're working in the digital realm, the clock is an analog signal: it's a square wave, and square waves have quite a few harmonics. Ideally, all of these harmonics should be mathematically related to each other (exponents of the fundamental). If the clock has harmonics that are not mathematically related, these harmonics will create an undesirable interference during conversion. Often, this undesirable interference will be heard as distortion components in the high and low frequencies of the audio signal. It will create phase cancellations during conversion, causing the audio to take on a limp quality, with an apparent loss of volume.
Our internal clock is incredibly accurate and very low in unwanted harmonics; delta sigma averaging methods place the amount of unwanted signal content at less than 10 picoseconds. The improved clock we install will give you improved signal clarity, fuller harmonic extension of the instrument you are tracking, an apparent increase in volume over the stock design (because of lower phase cancellations), and pinpoint image placement during mix-down. This upgrade alone brings the stock rack to a level of performance that rivals or exceeds digital audio systems costing thousands more.

220/270SP MASTER CLOCK UPGRADE (SIGNATURE SERIES ONLY!)
The Signature Series clock takes our standard clock upgrade to an entirely new dimension. Our new 'patent applied for' internal master clock is, hands down, the most advanced master clock in pro audio today. So not only do you get all of the benefits of pinpoint imaging, signal clarity, and harmonic extension, but you also get something unusual for digital audio: a beefy, yet nuanced quality. Your audio will be thick, rich and highly detailed with this breakthrough master clock upgrade. Not only does it feature our field tested and proven third order crystal oscillators, it has an astonishingly low 1 picosecond of intrinsic jitter measured using a delta sigma average! Our proprietary noise suppression technology reduces RF and switching noise to a bare minimum, ensuring smooth high frequency response in the audio band. Dual high current signal driver stages are used to deliver the clock signal into galvanic-isolated 75 ohm terminations, drastically limiting transmission line reflections normally found in multi-channel digital systems. What does all of this mean? Digital audio so articulated, fat and rich it has to be heard to be believed. In a word, it sounds expensive.

A/D AND D/A CONVERTER UPGRADE
The A/D and D/A circuitry configuration on stock 002R units generates excessive distortion and phase cancellation during the conversion process. Converters generate a LOT of noise when they do their work, and are very sensitive to their power sources. The reason noise is created is that they have to move a lot of current, and lots of current movement means lots of electrons moving. When those electrons move, they generate a sort of "mechanical" noise. This 'mechanical' noise actually creates harmonics that travel within the power supply and digital signal path, and these harmonics have all sorts of adverse effects. One thing that they do is reduce the amount of bit-depth that the converter is capable of achieving in its real-world performance. In its stock form, the 002R's converters are very poorly decoupled using low-grade ceramic capacitors. Instead of actually removing noise, they create resonant harmonics and make the problem worse. By properly "decoupling," we help remove or reduce this noise and its resulting after effects, leaving you with clear, crisp audio.

POWERFUL SUPPLY UPGRADE
By using a low-emission toroid transformer to power the analog and digital stages separately, we improve the overall character of your sound dramatically. This upgrade completely eliminates the power supply as a source of crosstalk between the analog and digital circuitry. And if that were not enough, check this out: You know how a tube guitar amp sounds 'bigger' than a solid state guitar amp? There's one reason for that: headroom. This upgrade process increases the analog stage headroom by 20db in the 002R and 15dB in the 003R, giving your audio more definition, more "heft," and much more "presence."

CUSTOMER FEEDBACK
Here are some the glowing reviews we have received on the modified Digi 002R:

"The A/D is FANTASTIC now!"
- André Mattos (A.M.P.)
Record Engineer, Musician, Producer, Teacher Amazonia, Brazil

"The mod is an immediate difference!"
- KEYBEEETSSS
Freelance Engineer

"The high end sparkle is stunning!"
-Paul Taverna
Boston, MA

"Clearly the best studio upgrade dollar I've ever spent!"
- Brad Cobb
Freelance Engineer

Read more detailed reviews we have received from our customers on the Signature Series modification.

THE ABSOLUTE BEST VALUE IN PRO AUDIO!
Our upgrade packages are, dollar for dollar, the most dramatic improvements you can do to your 002/003 rack. If you were to purchase a ProTools HD 3 rig, you could easily end up spending $20,000.00 by the end of the day.
Of all the gear you could spend your hard-earned money on, we promise you this modification will leave you with a smile, every time you crank up your system. It's so powerful, and so dramatic, it's simply a "no-brainer."
Our modifications come at a fraction of the price, and are in use by some of the top facilities and sound engineers in the world, such as SDI Media, The Los Angeles Opera, Audio Ease (AltiVerb Impulse Times are tracked on a Signature Series 002), Mattel, Disney, Fox Sports, Sony Scoring, and many more...
And remember, these are practices that aren't used by any other manufacturer. We've found them to yield sonic improvements that rival the most expensive conversion systems available in pro audio today!
Old 30th August 2010
  #77
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azriel_7 View Post
Not sure that makes any real sense.
There are very few situations of people selling used BLA modded units so you have no real basis for saying they hold their used value or sell for more a used unit + the mod.

This is probably based on end users being happy enough to keep the units or being at a saturation point that makes keeping the unit make more sense.

I would guess if you like the pres' and the result the converters give then I guess you could easily survive.
However if I was using a Rosetta with a 002 and tehn upgrade to an 003 then my Rosetta is still there to use.
Other wise I would have to get the 003 modded just as the 002 it replaced.
There may be few for sale but it does happen with some frequency and they always go for about $1800ish which is what it would cost to get a used 002R and the Sig mod. As I said, open and shut.

Re: upgrading from an 002 to an 003, why on earth would you ever do that. There is not nearly enough difference between them.
Old 31st August 2010
  #78
Gear Maniac
 
djemberecords's Avatar
 

I have a 003 Rack for sale. PM if interested.
Old 31st August 2010
  #79
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azriel_7 View Post
Still nothing that supports your statement of the retention in pricing on the BLA modded units.
If you mean into the future, then yes, there is no telling, but, unless I'm missing something, my statement absolutely proves that at this point in time they are holding their value perfectly, and much more than the average piece that drops in value as soon as you walk out the door with it. If you sell your Rossetta, you'll loose money, if you bought it new. At least at this point, if you buy a BLA mod, you can turn around and sell it for at least what you paid for it. If you bought the 002R used, you'll get your money out of it, just as much as you'd get your money out of a used Rosetta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azriel_7 View Post
The statement about a 002 to 003 was just because that's what replaced it.
The point was you have to replace the mod compared to just continuing to use an existing external like the Rosetta.
That point is predicated on having to replace it. It will be a very long time before one has to replace an 002R, BLA modded or not. If you get the mod, the need to replace it diminishes in terms of the need to upgrade to better quality. The BLA Signature modded 002R is just as useful, functionally and quality wise, as a Rossetta, many would say preferable.

Have we beat this dead horse enough?
Old 1st September 2010
  #80
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dustyreels's Avatar
 

It would be nice if ya'll would quit spliting hairs about the used prices of the BLA 002/3 so we could get on with the conversation at hand. Maybe have a
PM argument so we don't have to witness the immaturity. Thank you.
Old 1st September 2010
  #81
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyreels View Post
It would be nice if ya'll would quit spliting hairs about the used prices of the BLA 002/3 so we could get on with the conversation at hand. Maybe have a
PM argument so we don't have to witness the immaturity. Thank you.
totally appreciate the sentiment, but I believe we were both trying to answer the OP, each in our own way. In any case I think I've made myself clear.
Old 7th March 2011
  #82
Gear Head
 

Thank you all for your opinions. Thank you. Very interesting advices here. I have some news after all this time. Finally, I bought the 003. I like it. It sounds good. The preamps are not the best but are decent. I enjoy Pro Tools except for the Midi Editor. I learned alot from this experience. Thank you for all.

Well, I need your advice again. I discover that a 003 is too much for my needs. With that purchase I understand better my situation and my needs. Im thinking in sell the 003 and buy a Mbox 3. Yes, is a particular outcome for this thread. But I want to invest better my money in an interface that has only what I need for now and put the rest of the money in others things that I need. A forum user of my country wants to buy my 003 at a decent price. But I dont know if is a good deal to buy the 003 to get a Mbox 3 (not the mini or the pro). Im worried about the minimum buffer size of the USB 2.0 Mbox 3 version on windows because I like to track guitars but with effects in PT and hear everything in real time without latency. Also, Im very worried about the sound quality of the new Mboxs.

Please tell me your opinion. I need only two preamps for now but Im worried about sound quality of the Mbox 3 vs the 003. If the 003 is better, I will think in keep it. If not, I will sell it and buy a Mbox 3 and spent better the money considering some of my actual needs.

Thank you and best regards!
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