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Best mixing headphones! Studio Headphones
Old 21st April 2012
  #901
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krheatman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWF View Post
Ive been digging my ATH-M50's. They are a tad hyped in the lowend but ive gotten use to them now. Ive found when I absolutely cant use my monitors ive been able to get myself in the ballpark reasonably well with them.
I must have a bad pair,they were hyped and way louder than my others.

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Old 21st April 2012
  #902
JWF
Gear nut
 
JWF's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
I must have a bad pair,they were hyped and way louder than my others.

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Probably just personal taste I suppose.

I have yet to find a neutral pair of headphones honestly to this point. Im sure there are some out there but they probably cost twice as much as my budget at the time. I usually find cans to be either hyped in the lows or thin in the under/around 200 range.
Old 22nd April 2012
  #903
Gear Nut
 

just lost my headphones to age - RIP

took me 3 days to read this thread and from what i've seen, the most popular choices are:

DT770's, 880's -- pro versions (250ohms)

sennheiser 650's and up (choose according to your budget)

AKG 701/702 -- bass shy (tied in popularity with beyers; from what i see)

Audio-Technica ATH-M50S -- cheapest/best bang for buck...?

and piedpiper (along with headphone.com) giving awards to the Dennon AH-D 2000/7000 models




seems as if they're pretty much the same - the dt880's being closest to "neutral"
Old 22nd April 2012
  #904
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krheatman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by StereoSteve View Post
just lost my headphones to age - RIP

took me 3 days to read this thread and from what i've seen, the most popular choices are:

DT770's, 880's -- pro versions (250ohms)

sennheiser 650's and up (choose according to your budget)

AKG 701/702 -- bass shy (tied in popularity with beyers; from what i see)

Audio-Technica ATH-M50S -- cheapest/best bang for buck...?

and piedpiper (along with headphone.com) giving awards to the Dennon AH-D 2000/7000 models




seems as if they're pretty much the same - the dt880's being closest to "neutral"
The HD600s look a flatter yet,less of a bass bump than the 650s.

To buy one set is tough because none are totally neutral,so you have to pick what is more important to hear.For me it would be HD600's if I had to mix on them,and 880's for checking mixes.

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Old 23rd April 2012
  #905
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
To buy one set is tough because none are totally neutral,so you have to pick what is more important to hear.


i will probably go with the 880's for their great review here and from other sources. quick question though, does anybody know if theres a difference between the DT880 250 ohm and the DT880 pro (which is also 250 ohm). the only difference i see is there is nothing on the ears for the 250 ohm and the pro version has "DT880 pro" printed on the sides...??
Old 23rd April 2012
  #906
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by StereoSteve View Post



seems as if they're pretty much the same - the dt880's being closest to "neutral"
IMHO, that is not an appropriate interpretation of the data. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. The 880s are bass shy and bright, by no means the 'closest to "neutral"'.
Old 24th April 2012
  #907
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krheatman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
IMHO, that is not an appropriate interpretation of the data. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. The 880s are bass shy and bright, by no means the 'closest to "neutral"'.
I will buy that they are brighter but they look great on the bass end IMO.But I am not looking for headphones that have a bump down to 30hz.I have Focal Twins that go to 40 and K & H O300Ds with a Sub.
I like the extension in higher range to tell if a mix is too bright with the 880's,and I can tell if the bass is out of whack with the HD600's.

I know you like the Denon's,I don't know which model, but the bump on that chart would only do me good dialing the sub 150 range.

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Old 24th April 2012
  #908
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
I will buy that they are brighter but they look great on the bass end IMO.But I am not looking for headphones that have a bump down to 30hz.I have Focal Twins that go to 40 and K & H O300Ds with a Sub.
I like the extension in higher range to tell if a mix is too bright with the 880's,and I can tell if the bass is out of whack with the HD600's.

I know you like the Denon's, I don't know which model, but the bump on that chart would only do me good dialing the sub 150 range.

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I use the 7000s but in their price range, the 2000s are my choice. The slight ruler straight rise in the bottom end of the Denons is considered to be ideal, for a number of good reasons already articulated here. All of these cans can be made use of if understood, although the Denons are the only ones that tell me what I need to know about the bottom end. Choose your poison...
Old 24th April 2012
  #909
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mowmow's Avatar
As far as the tone balance, M50 doesn't match Adam A5x. M50 has too much highs and lows compare to Adam so it can be confusing.
Old 24th April 2012
  #910
+1 for ATH-M50.
Old 24th April 2012
  #911
Gear Head
 

I have the Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro and the AKG K702. The K702 sounds quite bright, which could be due to the fact that its not huge on the bass; the lows are very flat and precise which makes it very easy to judge, once you get used to it. The earpads are very comfortable and fit nicely around the ears, which makes it perfect for longer sessions.

The AKG K702 is very, very detailed and a great precision tool. My experience has been that if a mix sounds balanced on them, it will sound good on most headphones, monitors and consumer products.

I prefer the AKG K702 over the DT 880 Pro (which is much more bass-y, less precise and has smaller earpads which makes it less comfortable - not a factor to neglect!).
Old 24th April 2012
  #912
Gear Nut
 

those were all mid range headphones and like a lot of mid range monitors, are hyped in some way. a lot of headphones boost the low end so your body can "feel" the bass as you would with speakers. the 880's may seem brighter (sibilant, harsh - whatever you call it) because they are boosted in the high frequencies and dont accentuate any low end.

in the end, as stated by many, all of these can yield positive results once you get to know them. i was looking at the 2000 and 701 as well but i've been wanting the 770's for awhile and since i am now in need of some new phones, i think the 880's are a good choice...however...is there a difference between the 880 and 880 pro? both can be 250ohms - the only difference i see is in the logo. am i missing something?

Best mixing headphones!Beyerdynamic DT 880 PRO 250ohms Headphones Factory B-stock DT880Pro | eBay

Best mixing headphones!eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

nevermind: the "premium" dt880 is for casual use while the "pro" is for studio use. both said to have sonic differences.

Last edited by StereoSteve; 25th April 2012 at 01:20 PM.. Reason: found answer
Old 30th April 2012
  #913
Quote:
Originally Posted by musikmaschine View Post
What role does/did he use them in how much of a difference does a 5k signal chain make compared to a typical audio interface? I'm thinking about an amp but don't know how much to spend.

Yeah the more i use them the more i like them. I've owned a few pairs of Sennheiser cans and they are by far my faves. It was krheatmans posts about using them for mastering that swayed me, plus the other many posts and reviews here and elsewhere.

Best thing is to go and try a few pairs though.
Sorry I was out and didnt notice your question.

The point of 5k chain is

1) soundcard (AES or Optical output without any errors) (100buks or 1000 does not matter. Pure signal must have).

2) Top DAC (it can be Benchmark, Lavry, Forssell or Prism) (up to 10000 usd)

3) Preamplifier (can be very cheap and clean pro gear (200 buks) with amazing details or really crazy custom tube one with colour for 5k)

This is the key.. cables etc are just details. In my opinion the most important is to match headphone indepandance with preamp to get best quality audio (18ohm heads 600ohm pre - yes, 300ohm heads 20 ohm pre - NO!). Get Behringer SRC 24/96 it has good headphone output and its conversion quality is as good as my 2grand CD-player, Gold cables, and very good Preamplifier. So in fact for 150 buks you get the same result as with even million dollar setup. With usual headphones you cant hear the difference. With usual hearing you cant hear the difference. Difference would come as you plug that headphone preamplifier output directly to million dollar speaker - there would be a difference. But as smaller headphones indepandance is - the lower are requirements to the signal chain to get maximum performance.

But as soon as you would compare Avid003 heaphone amp and that behringer stuff for peaunut - THERE WOULD BE HUGE DIFFERENCE. I mean details, headroom, space, nuances, overal sound atmosphere, and musicality, bottom end ballace etc. Some preamplifiers are really bad even when considered as proffesional. And some are really good even when considered as bad. I bet those FiiO toys can make your sound big enough.. but never tryed them so dont know.

PS: just a simple idea (sort of a joke) how to get the most musical and enjoyable sound from any record at night.

1) Get Lavry DA (good enough in my opinion) or Forssell MDA
2) get manley active passive and twist knobs a bit
3) Run signal thru two clean tube pres
3) Get Lake people preamp
4) Get HD 800

5) turn it on
6) wait 15 mins to burn in
7) get a toilet paper


God bless!
Old 30th April 2012
  #914
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musikmaschine's Avatar
 

I posted a thread about getting a cheap Superlux headphone preamp earlier but after looking at a few options i don't know. What would be a good match for under £200? I'm using a VRM box with my laptop so was looking for a portable/desktop amp to drive them.

The superlux apparently is a good match for the senns but for £69 what can you expect?!

I have a couple of pci interfaces with spdif and one has aes/wordclock which i could connect to the src2496 and connect the superlux HA3D with balanced cables, think this would be a good setup? If so this would be great!

Which to get first though; the amp or the DAC?

Btw i've read about some issues with the Behringer DAC, looked at it before and they put me off considering it. I guess i'm shunning it cause it's Behringer and i've read the horror stories but that is dirt cheap for a DAC if the quality is up there with higher end DACs.
Old 30th April 2012
  #915
Quote:
Originally Posted by musikmaschine View Post
I posted a thread about getting a cheap Superlux headphone preamp earlier but after looking at a few options i don't know. What would be a good match for under £200? I'm using a VRM box with my laptop so was looking for a portable/desktop amp to drive them.

The superlux apparently is a good match for the senns but for £69 what can you expect?!

I have a couple of pci interfaces with spdif and one has aes/wordclock which i could connect to the src2496 and connect the superlux HA3D with balanced cables, think this would be a good setup? If so this would be great!

Which to get first though; the amp or the DAC?

Btw i've read about some issues with the Behringer DAC, looked at it before and they put me off considering it. I guess i'm shunning it cause it's Behringer and i've read the horror stories but that is dirt cheap for a DAC if the quality is up there with higher end DACs.

To be honest SRC converter is one of the best converters Ive heard in pro league. Its colourless and got no that compression like benchmark or Lavry has or capacitor flavour like Forssell. Crane song or UA.. got distortion that makes them sound "good". Lavry is sweet but DAD or Forssell are more real. Well.. yeah SRC is not as good as Prism but it sounds very close to the source especially in DA domain. And there is no shame about Behringer. There should be shame on people who spend millions on studio and cant make a good sounding record. I highly recommend to get 2496 at least via SPDIF (optical is better) and try to use stock headphone output. I guarantee you would be blown away by its quality. You can get Lake peiple or some nice colored headamp later but its not must have in my opinion. I think stock headamp is fine.

Of course you can use balanced XLR output from SRC to connect superlux but... ughh. dont do it. It can workout as headphone distribution but would not increase the quality or performance. If you have somthing like SPL Phonitor then yes.. it can benefit from it. But in real world different headphones would make bigger difference then those tiny differences between good and good amps. I hope it would work out for you with HA3D but its just a 5percent chance it would be better then stock. And dont be confused about hi-frequencies... hyped pres usually considered as better.. but thats not true. Details and depth are one of the most important factors in sound quality.
Old 30th April 2012
  #916
PS: definately go SRC first.

PPS: I hear those storyes too. I heard a tons of storyes how bad behringer is and how ****ty it sounds. I heard masters of those people and they made me smile too. I heard those reference setups and they made me say: "is it all?"
Old 30th April 2012
  #917
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krheatman's Avatar
Best headphone dac-
Grace Design m903
Lavry DA10 is good also

My HD600s w/the m903 rule.

I just picked up some Grado RS-1's
Will keep u posted.

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Old 1st May 2012
  #918
Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
Best headphone dac-
Grace Design m903
Lavry DA10 is good also

My HD600s w/the m903 rule.

I just picked up some Grado RS-1's
Will keep u posted.

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Yep HD600 needs a heavy pre!
Old 1st May 2012
  #919
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anghello View Post
Yep HD600 needs a heavy pre!
I have been using my HD 600 (and later HD 650 and HD 800) with the Grace m902b for the last 8 years or so - and then upgraded to the m903 in February.


Although I am now the distributor of Grace Design in the UK - since the end of March - I have been using and loving this combination for years before I even thought of distributing Grace
Old 1st May 2012
  #920
Music CrAZy
 
tobymusic's Avatar
 

I've been using the HD 650 for years and recently switched to a really unique headphone:

Ultrasone Pro 2900

Stunning. They work a little differently to common headphones, it took me a while to adapt. But now when I put on the HD 650 (which I know very well) they feel so 2D to me, while the Ultrasone is the first headphone I've yet encountered that really works in a mix situation.

Give them a try.
Old 1st May 2012
  #921
Shure SRH 840. Perfect match with Genelec 1031A.
Old 1st May 2012
  #922
Lives for gear
 
musikmaschine's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anghello View Post
To be honest SRC converter is one of the best converters Ive heard in pro league. Its colourless and got no that compression like benchmark or Lavry has or capacitor flavour like Forssell. Crane song or UA.. got distortion that makes them sound "good". Lavry is sweet but DAD or Forssell are more real. Well.. yeah SRC is not as good as Prism but it sounds very close to the source especially in DA domain. And there is no shame about Behringer. There should be shame on people who spend millions on studio and cant make a good sounding record. I highly recommend to get 2496 at least via SPDIF (optical is better) and try to use stock headphone output. I guarantee you would be blown away by its quality. You can get Lake peiple or some nice colored headamp later but its not must have in my opinion. I think stock headamp is fine.

Of course you can use balanced XLR output from SRC to connect superlux but... ughh. dont do it. It can workout as headphone distribution but would not increase the quality or performance. If you have somthing like SPL Phonitor then yes.. it can benefit from it. But in real world different headphones would make bigger difference then those tiny differences between good and good amps. I hope it would work out for you with HA3D but its just a 5percent chance it would be better then stock. And dont be confused about hi-frequencies... hyped pres usually considered as better.. but thats not true. Details and depth are one of the most important factors in sound quality.
I'm reading mixed things around the web about the SRC (such as humming etc, behris infamous QC i guess lol) there' even a recent review here on GS which says the sound quality is similar to other sources, also this guy can't hear a difference between different sources It all sounds EXACTLY the same........

There is also a modding community and i can buy a modded SRC for about £150. But my main priority is good amplification of the HD600s so i'd be buying the DAC just for that ftm. Plus i use them with my laptop which is why the superlux appealed, runs on batteries and the amp would be connected to a vrm box. In terms of it's sound you seem quite dismissive, as others would react to Behringer. Here's one of the few reviews anyway Superlux HA3D Amplifier | Headfonia

As they are an unknown quantity i decided to wait. Detail and depth are exactly what i want, the comment about it being bright could just mean detailed, i really don't know. As matching is so important (apparently) i need to take some more time to research, maybe go listen to some benchmark DACs as a place has them near me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anghello View Post
PS: definately go SRC first.

PPS: I hear those storyes too. I heard a tons of storyes how bad behringer is and how ****ty it sounds. I heard masters of those people and they made me smile too. I heard those reference setups and they made me say: "is it all?"
There are a few stories below this thread! Somehow i feel slightly unclean now when i think of Behringer.

Anyway, thanks for the reply it's given me a few things to consider.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #923
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
Grado RS-1's sound great thru my Lavry DA10,very detailed.
Doesn't take much to drive them.
Old 7th May 2012
  #924
Quote:
Originally Posted by musikmaschine View Post
There are a few stories below this thread! Somehow i feel slightly unclean now when i think of Behringer.
Forget about what it called and how much it costs. Think about what it does and how it works. My little thread about this here Digital cables shootout - myths and facts
Old 8th May 2012
  #925
Lives for gear
 
musikmaschine's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anghello View Post
Forget about what it called and how much it costs. Think about what it does and how it works. My little thread about this here Digital cables shootout - myths and facts
Oh i do! it's not the gear that makes the music and i know quality can be found in low end gear. I had more use for the amp anyway right now and it was essentially gratis so i took as an opportunity to get a couple of things i needed. The superlux is a clone anyway.

Anyway, i since came across the Objective2 amplifier which is open source, there is a UK version with a built in DAC for £189. So i take it you've compared the behri to higher end dacs?
Old 8th May 2012
  #926
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krheatman's Avatar
Grado RS1 are great with my Grace m903,better than the Lavry for a full bodied mix.Also more revealing than the 880's.
But Senn HD600 is better for long sessions and all around mixing and mastering,better judge of the low end.

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Old 8th May 2012
  #927
Lives for gear
 
Lunatique's Avatar
You guys need to learn about what neutral response actually looks like for headphones.

Ideally, it should look like this:


From the lowest frequency (that the headphone can reach) to 1KHz, it should be perfectly flat. Then from 1KHz to 20KHz, it should be gentle slope going down -10 dB (to compensate for the drivers being so close to the ears, as well as resonance peak inside the ear canals). This is what an ideal headphone's response graph would look like, but of course, it doesn't exist because nothing is that perfect. So what you do when you judge a headphone's response graph, is to compare it to this ideal, and see how much that headphone deviates from it.

There are very few headphones that come close to this, and you'll find them in this comparison review: Comparing World-Class Headphones | InnerFidelity

BTW, Tyll has his "Wall of Fame" up now, of the best headphones in all price ranges: InnerFidelity's "Wall of Fame" | InnerFidelity

(He will be adding the Audez'e LCD-2 and LCD-3 to the wall soon.)

If you guys are smart, you'd trust Tyll's extensive experience and expertise in headphones over ANY posts here, including mine. This guy is currently one of the most knowledgeable and experienced headphone guys on the planet. He has tested, measured, compared more headphones than all of us put together, then times probably 100. He's been doing critical testing, measuring, dissecting, modding, for many years now. All those response graphs you guys keep using from HeadRoom--he's the one who created them. He's got more updated and accurate graphs on his site now, as well as very educational and insightful, as well very fair articles about measuring headphones, margin or error, effects of burn-in, and so on:
Audio Science Guide | InnerFidelity
Headphone Data Sheet Downloads | InnerFidelity

Seriously, the best thing you guys can do to educate yourselves about anything headphone-related, is to just read up as much as you can at Tyll's website. It beats a bunch of back and forth debates, half-cooked theories, or regurgitating of misinformation between people who don't have nearly the same authoritative knowledge or experience as he does.

BTW, Piedpiper, you might be interested to read this new review of the Denon X000 series from Tyll--he said that Denon's changed the sonic signature recently and made them better: The Luscious Denon AH-D2000, AH-D5000, and AH-D7000 | InnerFidelity
Old 8th May 2012
  #928
Gear interested
 
Darren Jenkins's Avatar
Sennheiser HD 600's.
Old 8th May 2012
  #929
Lives for gear
 
Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique View Post
You guys need to learn about what neutral response actually looks like for headphones.

Ideally, it should look like this:


From the lowest frequency (that the headphone can reach) to 1KHz, it should be perfectly flat. Then from 1KHz to 20KHz, it should be gentle slope going down -10 dB (to compensate for the drivers being so close to the ears, as well as resonance peak inside the ear canals). This is what an ideal headphone's response graph would look like, but of course, it doesn't exist because nothing is that perfect. So what you do when you judge a headphone's response graph, is to compare it to this ideal, and see how much that headphone deviates from it.

There are very few headphones that come close to this, and you'll find them in this comparison review: Comparing World-Class Headphones | InnerFidelity

BTW, Tyll has his "Wall of Fame" up now, of the best headphones in all price ranges: InnerFidelity's "Wall of Fame" | InnerFidelity

(He will be adding the Audez'e LCD-2 and LCD-3 to the wall soon.)

If you guys are smart, you'd trust Tyll's extensive experience and expertise in headphones over ANY posts here, including mine. This guy is currently one of the most knowledgeable and experienced headphone guys on the planet. He has tested, measured, compared more headphones than all of us put together, then times probably 100. He's been doing critical testing, measuring, dissecting, modding, for many years now. All those response graphs you guys keep using from HeadRoom--he's the one who created them. He's got more updated and accurate graphs on his site now, as well as very educational and insightful, as well very fair articles about measuring headphones, margin or error, effects of burn-in, and so on:
Audio Science Guide | InnerFidelity
Headphone Data Sheet Downloads | InnerFidelity

Seriously, the best thing you guys can do to educate yourselves about anything headphone-related, is to just read up as much as you can at Tyll's website. It beats a bunch of back and forth debates, half-cooked theories, or regurgitating of misinformation between people who don't have nearly the same authoritative knowledge or experience as he does.

BTW, Piedpiper, you might be interested to read this new review of the Denon X000 series from Tyll--he said that Denon's changed the sonic signature recently and made them better: The Luscious Denon AH-D2000, AH-D5000, and AH-D7000 | InnerFidelity
Thanks for the tip off! I'll check it out...

BTW, I was under the impression that the fictional ideal would be slightly tipped up to the low end, dipped in the upper mids and then tipped up again above 12 k where ear starts getting insensitive... This is what the Headroom guys have been saying, as I'm sure you're aware. Is this an evolution, or just a difference of opinion?
Old 8th May 2012
  #930
Lives for gear
 
Lunatique's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Thanks for the tip off! I'll check it out...

BTW, I was under the impression that the fictional ideal would be slightly tipped up to the low end, dipped in the upper mids and then tipped up again above 12 k where ear starts getting insensitive... This is what the Headroom guys have been saying, as I'm sure you're aware. Is this an evolution, or just a difference of opinion?
I think that used to be true when headphones couldn't do what today's best headphones can do, such as the planar-magnetic ones like the Audez'e and the Hifiman planar-magnetic headphones, which have plenty of authoritative sub-bass weight to not need any kind of a hump in the mid-bass to compensate for that lack of sub-bass heft (such as in the case of all the Sennheiser headphones). HeadRoom also never got into selling electrostatic headphones and were in general ignorant about them. Also, if you look at the Denon D7000, it has no mid-bass hump yet they sing all kinds of praises about its bass performance.

Tyll was the one that wrote all that stuff for HeadRoom--he was the founder and CEO of HeadRoom and did all the headphone testing, measuring, reviews, etc. Everything you have ever references as your knowledge about headphones came from Tyll. He's quit as the CEO not long ago to focus on measuring/testing/learning more about headphones, and has since improved his methods and abandoned some older theories (due to new discoveries).

He's very receptive to comments and questions and his blog as well as his forum (all located at innerfidelity.com) are great places for you guys to go and actually ask the man himself all kinds of questions. He lives and breathes this stuff and would love to hear from everyone here.
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