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Old 17th July 2010
  #61
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midnightsun's Avatar
 

I have multiple Beyerdynamic and AKG cans to include their top of the line. If I must, I can "sort of mix" with any of them but the AKG271MKII are my favorites. I can get a mix started and at least work on a mix with the cans. The issue being that I want to mix when my family is sleeping. I picked up a pair of JBL LSR4326 that I use as a very, very nearfield pair of monitors speakers. I set them on the front side of my desk rather than the back side. I can run the 4326s at very low volume and they beat the hell out of any set of cans I have every heard and the volume doesn't awaken my family. This could also be done in an apartment with paper thin walls. Otherwise, I mix on my usual nearfield monitors at the traditional distance at a medium volume.

I am certainly not saying that the LSR4326 are great monitors I am just saying that for me, they serve the purpose of not disturbing others. Running them at very low volume is far superior to any set of cans I have ever heard.
Old 17th July 2010
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSky Media View Post
On the contrary, I understood you perfectly.

We will need to agree to disagree. Your points although somewhat valid, are obviously not taking into consideration the newer headphone technology and the fact that even some "Experts" mix and master with headphones. Are they wrong too? And yes I realize that this is the exception rather than the rule, but a fact none the less.

"Experts" certainly do have a lot to say, and I respect a lot of what they say. That doesn't mean that I will listen to everything they say.

Much of what you mention about headphones can also be applied to monitors. You cannot possibly state what "The Best" monitor is, because the perfect one does not exist. Why is it that the experts cannot agree upon the magic monitor? Simply because all monitors have their flaws. Just as headphones do. Of course I use monitors as a cross reference, but I am to the point now where my confidence in using headphones make them primary and then monitors secondary.

What is important is that a person is comfortable with their set up to the point of knowing what buttons to push so to speak. You are trying to make this an absolute Right / Wrong" issue. If you want to spend a lot of time effort and money on things because that's what the "Experts" say, then knock yourself out. I am willing to bet that you could not tell the difference between a mix or master done on headphones vs monitors.

Speaking for myself, I prefer headphones. Nothing you say will change that so please stop trying. It reminds me of the Analog vs Digital debate. We can talk specs and theory all day long, it doesn't mean a thing. The bottom line is the end product. Does it sound good? If you can't reach your sound nirvana with headphones, then don't use them. If others can well just leave it at that. Why it makes you so upset is beyond me. Just chill dude.

Oh, and make sure to wipe your a$$ with Charmin. Experts agree that it is the best way. Any other way is just wrong (look it up).
Old 17th July 2010
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
The issue being that I want to mix when my family is sleeping.

I can run the 4326s at very low volume and they beat the hell out of any set of cans I have every heard and the volume doesn't awaken my family.

This could also be done in an apartment with paper thin walls.
Excellent points, convenience plays a big factor for some people.
Old 17th July 2010
  #64
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DarkSky Media's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Your points although somewhat valid, are obviously not taking into consideration the newer headphone technology
As far as I know, the points I made take into account all current and recent headphone technology. I invited you to point out anything new that enables you to do what others have been unable to do, and you haven't done so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Much of what you mention about headphones can also be applied to monitors.
Actually, none of what I described relates to monitor speakers. At all. It is all specifically and exclusively applicable to headphone monitoring. heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Why it makes you so upset is beyond me. Just chill dude.
Actually, I'm not upset at all. Amused and little bemused, perhaps.
Old 17th July 2010
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSky Media View Post
As far as I know, the points I made take into account all current and recent headphone technology. I invited you to point out anything new that enables you to do what others have been unable to do, and you haven't done so.
If you read throughout GearSlutz, there are others that choose to use phones for mixing. What enables us to do so? I guess experience. I can't offer you specs. All I can offer, is that using headphones is a preference. A preference that actually works better for some. Sorry, that's all got.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSky Media View Post
Actually, none of what I described relates to monitor speakers. At all. It is all specifically and exclusively applicable to headphone monitoring. heh
Again I will have to disagree 'sound fields', 'dryness', 'resonance', 'Spacial cues', all come into play with monitors.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSky Media View Post
Actually, I'm not upset at all. Amused and little bemused, perhaps.
I do appreciate this dialog as well, it's always good to look at all sides. Just know that I am not anti-monitor. And I do appreciate your insight.
Old 17th July 2010
  #66
Gear Maniac
 

I've always loved headphones, ever since I was a kid, so I find myself doing a lot of work with them, even down to preliminary mixing. But I have to say that, for me personally, I've never done a headphone mix that hasn't been improved in some way by running it through a set of speakers and doing a rebalance.
Old 17th July 2010
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKenterpro View Post
So i'm now debating between the hd600 hd650. Don't know which one will suite me best.

Which one has smooth highs and good bass. I am having trouble getting my bass to sit just right. And my highs are kind of harsh in the mids and muffled on the high end clarity.
I use 650's - they are really nice sounding, comfortable headphones, but I don't know if I would totally trust them for mixing - whenever I have tried mixing on them (I run them through an SPL Phonitor, by the way) and then listen back through my monitors, I am always unhappy with the mixes.
Old 18th July 2010
  #68
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
People tend not to mention Grado because they have the reputation for being coloured.

But the sound is not the sound that you could trust for mastering.
That's an interesting point. So, how do you know what is accurate or uncoloured and what is not? My Rhodes sounds great through the Grados, just what I would expect a 1974 Rhodes to sound like, but, since it is amplified, I'm not sure what its real sound is.

I suppose what I would need to do is record some acoustic piano, acoustic guitar or other "real" instrument, but then, how would I know that some link in the recording process has not somehow coloured the original?

I could imagine "colour" being something fairly subjective and potentially difficult to measure when it comes to headphones. A signal could be analysed at various points in the recording chain to quantitatively measure differences but since headphones tend to count on a head being in the chain, measurement could be a challenge.

Randy
Old 19th July 2010
  #69
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by piscione View Post
That's an interesting point. So, how do you know what is accurate or uncoloured and what is not? My Rhodes sounds great through the Grados, just what I would expect a 1974 Rhodes to sound like, but, since it is amplified, I'm not sure what its real sound is.

I suppose what I would need to do is record some acoustic piano, acoustic guitar or other "real" instrument, but then, how would I know that some link in the recording process has not somehow coloured the original?

I could imagine "colour" being something fairly subjective and potentially difficult to measure when it comes to headphones. A signal could be analysed at various points in the recording chain to quantitatively measure differences but since headphones tend to count on a head being in the chain, measurement could be a challenge.

Randy
Learning Center - Products Equipment Reviews Specifications and Support | HeadRoom Audio
Old 19th July 2010
  #70
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Thanks, interesting stuff. I particularly liked this comment from the site"

"So, look for simple results but don't be surprised by a lot of wiggles---they are normal. And take everything with a fairly good sized grain of salt."

The Grado SR325 seem to do well on this site, no mention of colour.

Randy
Old 19th July 2010
  #71
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by piscione View Post
The Grado SR325 seem to do well on this site, no mention of colour.
...if you like very bright rolled off bass.
Old 19th July 2010
  #72
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by piscione View Post
Thanks, interesting stuff. I particularly liked this comment from the site"

"So, look for simple results but don't be surprised by a lot of wiggles---they are normal. And take everything with a fairly good sized grain of salt."
Though, I think it is nonetheless relatively appropriate to make use of their very well done frequency response charts when in pursuit of accurate neutral reference cans for mixing.
Old 21st July 2010
  #73
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My lunch-hour research, just now...

I compared the Beyerdynamic DT770s, the DT990s and the ATM50s. I was listening to some CD I wasn't familiar with. Sounded like nu-soul, like Maxwell or D'Angelo or something. I can see why the store had picked it, as it had nice crisp snares, bright hi-hats, deep bass, a bit of warm Fender Rhodes etc etc

In other words, apart from sub-bass, it was music that had the whole frequency spectrum covered.

The DT990s sounded "airiest" of the three. They had the most detail across the freq spectrum all in all. The most defined bass, in particular. They also gave more of the sense of the full stereo spectrum: everything sounded more spread-out. They felt "broader" the most like listening on monitors of the three.

That said, the DT770s weren't too far behind. Just a bit less of all I mentioned above. If I was making a new, first-time purchase, I would definitely go for the DT990s over the DT770s. However, as I already own a pair of DT770s, I can't really justify selling them and upgrading: the differences between them are significant, but not overwhelmingly significant.

ATM50s sounded a lot muddier and "narrower" compared to both of the others. There was more bass than the other two, but not nearly as well defined. Based on this particular listening experience, I wouldn't be happy mixing on the ATM50s. However, I'm actually considering purchasing them as a pair of "contrast" headphones... we'll see....

Of course, whether any of those three are actually accurate is impossible to say based on that comparison.

I have no idea if the more enjoyable (much more transparent) listening experience of the DT990s is actually true. For all I know, what I was hearing on the ATM50s was a better representation of the actual recording. (I suspect not, though)

At home, I find my mixes on my DT770s don't translate well, though please don't make too much of that because basically I am **** at mixing. I make terrible mixes on my Adam A5 monitors too, and I reckon I'd probably make **** mixes on anything.

Tomorrow I hope to try out some Sennheiser 650s. I'll report back.
Old 21st July 2010
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKenterpro View Post
I need a pair of headphones to do mixing .
Shure SRH840 Professional Monitoring Headphones.
Old 21st July 2010
  #75
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPORT View Post
Shure SRH840 Professional Monitoring Headphones.
Those are *closed* headphones - for mixing you normally need *open* headphones.

Closed are great for tracking and monitoring in a noisy situation - but I would not use them for mixing.
Old 21st July 2010
  #76
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Those are *closed* headphones - for mixing you normally need *open* headphones.

Closed are great for tracking and monitoring in a noisy situation - but I would not use them for mixing.
At the expense of sounding like a broken record, have you tried the Denons?
Old 21st July 2010
  #77
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Yfoiler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Here is another plug for the HD650. These headphones are rated at 300 ohm's. To get the full value out of them you really need a nice clean headphone amp to drive them. I have a Burson HA-160 which is outstanding. Simply plugging the HD 650 into a headphone jack not rated at 300ohm is a complete waste.

These headphones did require about a 150 hour break in period. The bass is tight and the mids as well as high's are basically 'what you hear is what you get'. Plus I love the detail that I hear that I wouldn't otherwise hear with the near fields.

As to the comments stating "you can't mix on phones. Not properly", I say that is pure rubbish. It is all a matter of getting used to them just like we get used to near fields. I have a nice set of Dynaudios, and and older pair of Events that I just love. But now that I am used to the HD650's I use them 80 - 90% of the time and my mixes have never sounded better. They translate real well on whatever I throw my mixes at.

The key is really getting to know them and cross referencing with other CD's.
+1 for the 650s. BUT they DO need a good amp. Otherwise forget them.
Old 21st July 2010
  #78
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Teddy Ray's Avatar
 

650s, not what I enjoy for mixing.

my favorites are now the 701s, Stax Omega IIs, and the Denon ADH7000...(they show promise)

my favorite tracking cans are the ATHm50.
Old 21st July 2010
  #79
D K
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D K's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by binarymilton View Post
My lunch-hour research, just now...

I compared the Beyerdynamic DT770s, the DT990s and the ATM50s. I was listening to some CD I wasn't familiar with. Sounded like nu-soul, like Maxwell or D'Angelo or something. I can see why the store had picked it, as it had nice crisp snares, bright hi-hats, deep bass, a bit of warm Fender Rhodes etc etc

In other words, apart from sub-bass, it was music that had the whole frequency spectrum covered.

The DT990s sounded "airiest" of the three. They had the most detail across the freq spectrum all in all. The most defined bass, in particular. They also gave more of the sense of the full stereo spectrum: everything sounded more spread-out. They felt "broader" the most like listening on monitors of the three.

That said, the DT770s weren't too far behind. Just a bit less of all I mentioned above. If I was making a new, first-time purchase, I would definitely go for the DT990s over the DT770s. However, as I already own a pair of DT770s, I can't really justify selling them and upgrading: the differences between them are significant, but not overwhelmingly significant.

ATM50s sounded a lot muddier and "narrower" compared to both of the others. There was more bass than the other two, but not nearly as well defined. Based on this particular listening experience, I wouldn't be happy mixing on the ATM50s. However, I'm actually considering purchasing them as a pair of "contrast" headphones... we'll see....

Of course, whether any of those three are actually accurate is impossible to say based on that comparison.

I have no idea if the more enjoyable (much more transparent) listening experience of the DT990s is actually true. For all I know, what I was hearing on the ATM50s was a better representation of the actual recording. (I suspect not, though)

At home, I find my mixes on my DT770s don't translate well, though please don't make too much of that because basically I am **** at mixing. I make terrible mixes on my Adam A5 monitors too, and I reckon I'd probably make **** mixes on anything.

Tomorrow I hope to try out some Sennheiser 650s. I'll report back.
Found much the same thing when I bought the DT 880s a couple of weeks ago..to me there was no comparison at all between them and the ATM50s. To be honest..to me the ATM50s sounded only slightly better then my Senn 280s and I could not stand mixing on those = headache city - They were great for tracking though...
Old 21st July 2010
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yfoiler View Post
+1 for the 650s. BUT they DO need a good amp. Otherwise forget them.
This is so true. I have the Sen 600's and they are great headphones!

But, I have a great amp pushing them. Like ALL speakers the amp is a vital factor in the performance of the speaker.

A good amp should be factored into the final price of the headphone.
Old 21st July 2010
  #81
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DeyBwah's Avatar
 

Why do we want open cans for mixing?

Just curious...
Old 21st July 2010
  #82
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DeyBwah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPORT View Post
Shure SRH840 Professional Monitoring Headphones.
I recently got a pair of the SRH840s. Excellent cans with a flat response and accurate bass. :D
Old 21st July 2010
  #83
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Teddy Ray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeyBwah View Post
Why do we want open cans for mixing?

Just curious...

in short, they are more natural. Open designs eliminate unwanted resonances by enabling air to freely flow around the drivers. (think of what happens when you put speakers next to a wall or surface(boom).
Old 21st July 2010
  #84
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I have actually been using my ipod buds a fair amount....its like a car test in the studio
Old 21st July 2010
  #85
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synthoid's Avatar
 

I've never been successful getting mixes to translate if I do them on headphones. I've had quite a few good headphones too, including several models of AKG and Sennheiser.

I'm starting to wonder though. I now have HD800s, and I use them to check mixes. I've been finding mix problems that I didn't discover through my monitors, and most surprisingly the problems I find are all over the frequency spectrum, sometimes in the low bass range, sometimes low midrange, sometimes high frequency. (These are problems that once corrected improve the mix on the monitors, so it doesn't seem like they're misleading me.)

If I had to boil it down to words, it would be something like this: the HD800s seem to give me a better sense of power levels at particular frequencies than other headphones. I.e., I can hear small changes in power levels at particular frequencies more clearly, so I can EQ more accurately with them than with other phones I've tried.

So I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should try some whole mixes on them and see how they translate. I'm starting to trust them a lot more than I've trusted headphones previously.

-synthoid
Old 22nd July 2010
  #86
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Teddy Ray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
I

So I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should try some whole mixes on them and see how they translate. I'm starting to trust them a lot more than I've trusted headphones previously.

-synthoid

I know of one very, very successful engineer who mixes solely on headphones.
Old 22nd July 2010
  #87
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synthoid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Ray View Post
I know of one very, very successful engineer who mixes solely on headphones.
I guess you don't want to call the poor fellow out publicly. heh What genre of music does he usually mix if I can ask?

-synthoid
Old 22nd July 2010
  #88
Gear Addict
 
mynaemisjonas's Avatar
 

you are doing yourself a giant disfavor if you do ANY mixing with high end headphones.

If you mix it right in the near fields it will sound right when you put on the phones... but don't change your mix in the phones. very MISLEADING.
Old 22nd July 2010
  #89
Gear Addict
 

How come no one's mentioned the Ultrasone PRO 750's?

I've mixed a hand full of TV shows using them. And did a close comparison test agains the Auratones. And the Ultrasone was VERY flat and for me at least, didn't add or take anything. So my Mix translated very smoothly when listening to the same mix on KRK V8's and Auratones and through a standars 20 TV.
Old 22nd July 2010
  #90
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
I've never been successful getting mixes to translate if I do them on headphones. I've had quite a few good headphones too, including several models of AKG and Sennheiser.

I'm starting to wonder though. I now have HD800s, and I use them to check mixes. I've been finding mix problems that I didn't discover through my monitors, and most surprisingly the problems I find are all over the frequency spectrum, sometimes in the low bass range, sometimes low midrange, sometimes high frequency. (These are problems that once corrected improve the mix on the monitors, so it doesn't seem like they're misleading me.)

If I had to boil it down to words, it would be something like this: the HD800s seem to give me a better sense of power levels at particular frequencies than other headphones. I.e., I can hear small changes in power levels at particular frequencies more clearly, so I can EQ more accurately with them than with other phones I've tried.

So I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should try some whole mixes on them and see how they translate. I'm starting to trust them a lot more than I've trusted headphones previously.

-synthoid

Please do try this! I, and likely many others would love to hear the results...
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