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Old 28th January 2016
  #3031
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Lance Lawson's Avatar
 

Wouldn't it be easier to have a reasonably flat set of headphones and then directly in front of them a predetermined EQ curve that would insure that anything going into them would be flat/accurate to the signal in front of the curve. I have pair of comfortable cheap Phillips that are way over boosted in the bottom end and clipped in the tip end. I've set the EQ curve on my PC general sound card to better reflect what I hear in SONAR with the high end card and good Sennheisers.
Old 28th January 2016
  #3032
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Lunatique's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Lawson View Post
Wouldn't it be easier to have a reasonably flat set of headphones and then directly in front of them a predetermined EQ curve that would insure that anything going into them would be flat/accurate to the signal in front of the curve. I have pair of comfortable cheap Phillips that are way over boosted in the bottom end and clipped in the tip end. I've set the EQ curve on my PC general sound card to better reflect what I hear in SONAR with the high end card and good Sennheisers.
Ideally, yes, but in reality, there is no such software. I've searched for something like that for at least a decade now, and never found a really good one with acceptable parametric EQ and can hijack Windows audio. There are a few I've tested and they are pretty much all graphic EQ and not parametric EQ, and they are often clunky in design or have latency issues.

The closest I've gotten, is using J River Media Center, which now has an audio driver you can use. Then you just use whatever VST plugin you want in Media Center's DSP Studio. Now all audio going through Windows will run through the Media Center/VST plugin first. I use the IK Multimedia ARC System 2 for my speaker system, and a parametric EQ as well as TB ISONE (HRTF plugin for headphones), and it great to be able to use them not just in Media Center but for everything that runs on Windows. I used to hate not being to use the ARC System when watching online videos or listening to streaming music on another app, but now it's no longer a problem with this setup.
Old 30th January 2016
  #3033
So I'm reading this article on how to EQ your headphones (in order to remove ear canal resonances. I guess this is only an issues with headphones and not speakers).

http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-...nes-a-tutorial

I wonder if it's a lost cause on my Bose Quiet Comfort (Noise canceling). This is what I currently use.

Anyhow, the sinegen program he links to shows up positive on virus total, 34/53 virus scanners reporting it as a virus.

Another thing, (disclaimer, I have no idea what I'm doing), when I listen to pink noise, I feel some frequencies are louder in the left, and some in the right (low mids increased in the right, and high freqs in the left).

I really don't trust my ears to do this, but will do the best I can.
Old 30th January 2016
  #3034
Lives for gear
 
Lunatique's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by saurumanx View Post
So I'm reading this article on how to EQ your headphones (in order to remove ear canal resonances. I guess this is only an issues with headphones and not speakers).

http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-...nes-a-tutorial

I wonder if it's a lost cause on my Bose Quiet Comfort (Noise canceling). This is what I currently use.

Anyhow, the sinegen program he links to shows up positive on virus total, 34/53 virus scanners reporting it as a virus.

Another thing, (disclaimer, I have no idea what I'm doing), when I listen to pink noise, I feel some frequencies are louder in the left, and some in the right (low mids increased in the right, and high freqs in the left).

I really don't trust my ears to do this, but will do the best I can.
Pink noise is not the easiest way to do it, bacause it's hard for inexperienced people to judge frequency balance when they are all playing at the same time.

Log (logarithmic) sweep and individual sinewave rest tones are much better and far easier.

I'll write the tutorial soon.
Old 30th January 2016
  #3035
Lives for gear
If you EQ monitors or headphones, are you not introducing phase/timing issues? So you gain a flatter frequency balance, but may be lose out in other detail?

I'm probably way off the mark here, otherwise mastering would not involve EQ.
Old 30th January 2016
  #3036
Lives for gear
 
Lunatique's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Funk View Post
If you EQ monitors or headphones, are you not introducing phase/timing issues? So you gain a flatter frequency balance, but may be lose out in other detail?

I'm probably way off the mark here, otherwise mastering would not involve EQ.
I you are worried about it, use linear phase EQ. Also Bob Katz EQs his headphones, and wrote articles about it at InnerFidelity.
Old 31st January 2016
  #3037
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jlaws's Avatar
Linear phase EQ is more likely to hurt than help because of pre ringing. Just use a regular EQ.
Old 31st January 2016
  #3038
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Lunatique's Avatar
Okay, I've finally written that comprehensive guide on how to easily/reliably EQ your headphone for the most accurate/neutral sound possible. I have included everything--from what tools to use, the exact steps and approach, what to listen for, and all the test tones you need as well as carefully chosen musical material that's from my own audio gear testing playlist, with descriptions for how to use each track to test for specific problems in your headphones (and of course can be used to test speakers too). Here's the link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/796791/the-...-professionals
Old 3rd February 2016
  #3039
Here for the gear
 

My mixing set up is: A pair of Sennheiser HD650's, a Schiit Asgaard 2 amp, and 112db Redline Monitor VST. I do have a pair of Yamaha HS-8's but when I'm mixing late at night i cannot use them. I've read a lot of bad things about mixing on headphones. Some of it makes me laugh out loud. The simple truth is if you have a good set of open back cans a half decent amp and a corrective plug in (Waves NX looks really exciting) you can produce great mixes, depending on talent of course
Old 3rd February 2016
  #3040
Gear Guru
You guys should try Sonarworks. Eq's flat to a variety of headphones and works. I use with ATH 50's and is great. No need to spend huge money on flat phones.
Old 3rd February 2016
  #3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardis View Post
You guys should try Sonarworks. Eq's flat to a variety of headphones and works. I use with ATH 50's and is great. No need to spend huge money on flat phones.
Thanks i'm selling all my expensive headphones
Old 3rd February 2016
  #3042
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradovic View Post
Thanks i'm selling all my expensive headphones
Umm if that's sarcasm, don't bother, since your expensive headphones should sound good for like you know actually listening to music?....

A lot of people here, have confused expensive headphones with flat response and "accurate". Your expensive headphones will also have more detail and clarity, which is why they are expensive.... Sonarworks just makes them flat......(if they're supported)....
Old 4th February 2016
  #3043
Lives for gear
 
jlaws's Avatar
I have expensive headphones and the sonarworks thing is interesting to me. Does it allow you to go for more of the harman target curve rather than flat?
Old 4th February 2016
  #3044
Gear Maniac
 
Mike.r's Avatar
I don't have a supported pair of headphones for sonarworks. Should I still try it with this? (I have Philips Fidelio X1) or is Waves NX the better solution?
Old 4th February 2016
  #3045
Gear Guru
I don't think Sonarworks is good for non supported headphones unless the curve is close to what they support. Won't be flat. Don't really know about the Harmon curve but was discussed on one of their threads I think. I'd say contact them to see if they'll support your phones and maybe do a search on the Harmon curve. I'm very happy with the software since it does make a big difference in my headphone mixes. They also seem to be nice people....
Old 12th February 2016
  #3046
Lives for gear
 

Sonarworks, from the feedback I've had with people who's used them isn't a bad setup by all accounts. The generic profiles can get you in the ballpark, but if your going to do it properly (and the feedback I've had, is that you should if your going to do it), you should send in your cans to get properly measured and calibrated for you.

I was tempted to get my Focals done last year so looked into it and asked around, but ended up going with a headphone upgrade instead.
Old 16th February 2016
  #3047
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardis View Post
You guys should try Sonarworks. Eq's flat to a variety of headphones and works. I use with ATH 50's and is great. No need to spend huge money on flat phones.
I agree Sonarworks works very well.

I wonder if you use the regular ATH M50 or the M50x (which is what they "officially" support).
I'm asking cause I've been trying my ATH M50, with Sonarworks, and it seems it help them a lot (though I frankly don't how close the two headphones are compared to each-other).

Otherwise I use Sonarworks with my HD650, makes them more flat and revealing, less veiled = much better to work with.

I hope they'll support Shure's SRH940 in the future as these are great headphones, but suffers from a peak in the high-end - I'm certain these would be nothing less than spectacular with Sonarworks correction.

::
Mads
Old 16th February 2016
  #3048
Gear Guru
I use the regular ATH 50's. I think the curve is for the 50x, but close enough. Dramatic improvement in my mixes. Nothing worse than "speaker disappointment", when you go off cans.... Already the phones gave me a speaker like sound. SW just gets rid of all the resonant low end crap that drove me crazy. Still need speakers to balance the mix, but a lot of the nasty surprises are tamed.
Old 28th February 2016
  #3049
rjx
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rjx's Avatar
I'm considering the Oppo PM-3 headphones for $399.

They're marketed as a portable, planar magnetic headphone for listening pleasure. But they seem to be very neutral, great quality studio cans for the price.

Tyll @ innerfidelity.com Quotes:
The Oppo PM-3 A Competent Comfortable Mobile Headphone Page 2 | InnerFidelity

"it may be the most neutral sounding headphone I've experienced."

"for the most part the PM-3 frequency response just sounds straight down the middle."

"In comparisons with other cans of this type (NAD VISO HP50; Focal Spirit Pro; Shure SRH1540; Audio Technica ATH-MSR7) I found the PM-3 to easily sound the most neutral, but all but the Focal sounded more lively and open. Varying tastes among enthusiasts will have to decide which suites best, but audio pros should probably go straight for the PM-3."


Bob Katz, also @ innerfidelity Quotes:
Katz's Corner Episode 10: Mid-Priced Sealed Headphone Survey - Oppo PM3 | InnerFidelity

"Oppo has hit the sweet spot among accuracy, impact and portability."

"Bottom line: $399 at Amazon. Jump on 'em at this price. I have surely found the sweet spot in price/performance ratio. This is my Nirvana mid-priced dream can, and with even better sound than I expected in a mid-priced can, so I can justify a $400 price."


Has anyone here at gearslutz used these cans? What do you think?
Old 14th March 2016
  #3050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique View Post
Okay, I've finally written that comprehensive guide on how to easily/reliably EQ your headphone for the most accurate/neutral sound possible. I have included everything--from what tools to use, the exact steps and approach, what to listen for, and all the test tones you need as well as carefully chosen musical material that's from my own audio gear testing playlist, with descriptions for how to use each track to test for specific problems in your headphones (and of course can be used to test speakers too). Here's the link: The most reliable/easiest way to EQ headphones properly to achieve the most ideal sound (for non-professionals)
Thanks so much Lunatique!

Now, people are writing about SonarWorks.

Is what you're describing going to give the same results as SonarWorks? What if it's done by an absolute beginner (me) who doesn't have much confidence in his ability to EQ.

I'm really glad to hear what you're saying about headphone amps being snake-oil; saves me some money. Problem is, I can't find any info about my sound-card. It's an internal laptop soundcard; "Sound Blaster X-Fi3". I don't hear any noise, but I guess should wait until the headphones arrive and then determine if I'm hearing any noise. I'm reading a lot of things about headphone amps "opening the sound" and "revealing things I never heard before" or that certain headphones, specifically the AKG 7xx are "hard to drive" even though they're rated 62ohms. So I'm really confused about that.
Old 14th March 2016
  #3051
Lives for gear
 
Lunatique's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by saurumanx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique View Post
Okay, I've finally written that comprehensive guide on how to easily/reliably EQ your headphone for the most accurate/neutral sound possible. I have included everything--from what tools to use, the exact steps and approach, what to listen for, and all the test tones you need as well as carefully chosen musical material that's from my own audio gear testing playlist, with descriptions for how to use each track to test for specific problems in your headphones (and of course can be used to test speakers too). Here's the link: The most reliable/easiest way to EQ headphones properly to achieve the most ideal sound (for non-professionals)
Thanks so much Lunatique!

Now, people are writing about SonarWorks.

Is what you're describing going to give the same results as SonarWorks? What if it's done by an absolute beginner (me) who doesn't have much confidence in his ability to EQ.

I'm really glad to hear what you're saying about headphone amps being snake-oil; saves me some money. Problem is, I can't find any info about my sound-card. It's an internal laptop soundcard; "Sound Blaster X-Fi3". I don't hear any noise, but I guess should wait until the headphones arrive and then determine if I'm hearing any noise. I'm reading a lot of things about headphone amps "opening the sound" and "revealing things I never heard before" or that certain headphones, specifically the AKG 7xx are "hard to drive" even though they're rated 62ohms. So I'm really confused about that.
I tried SonarWorks a while ago and it's pretty good. If you follow my EQ instructions using the test tones I provided, you wouldn't need SonarWorks (and will save yourself some money). If you follow the steps I laid out exactly, it really isn't that hard--it just takes patience and focus. Also, if you take the time to do it yourself, you learn so much about frequency response and EQ'ing that you will be able to apply that experience to your music production.

Headphone amps aren't inherently snake oil--it's when people spend money on the ones they don't need, that they become pointless. If your current setup provides plenty of power for your chosen headphone, without problems with noise and distortion, and the impedance matches, then you really have no need for an amp. It's only when you have those problems that you need an amp, but not just any amp---it should be an amp that will address all those issues. As for the people who claim an amp "opens up" the sound of a headphone, have they actually done double-blind tests with careful volume-matching to prove that? If not, then it's not reliable because our brains is too easily fooled by biases.
Old 14th March 2016
  #3052
Gear Head
 
MassiveSound.Net's Avatar
 

i personally had very good experience tracking & mixing with the sony 7520. sony did a great job with these headphones.
Old 15th March 2016
  #3053
rjx
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rjx's Avatar
Hmmm

MRspeakers ETHER. In the same ballpark as the Sennheiser HD800 , but maybe more pleasurable to listen to.



Last edited by rjx; 22nd March 2016 at 03:05 AM..
Old 15th March 2016
  #3054
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjx View Post
I'm considering the Oppo PM-3 headphones for $399.
...
Has anyone here at gearslutz used these cans? What do you think?
I have a pair here. They are pretty good for closed-back phones, comfortable and pleasant-sounding, with decent isolation. However, they are not as neutral as a good pair of open-backed phones. A pair of cheaper closed-back phones with the Sonarworks plug-in will get you closer to a flat frequency response, though it might not be so enjoyable for listening.
Old 15th March 2016
  #3055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique View Post
I tried SonarWorks a while ago and it's pretty good. If you follow my EQ instructions using the test tones I provided, you wouldn't need SonarWorks (and will save yourself some money). If you follow the steps I laid out exactly, it really isn't that hard--it just takes patience and focus. Also, if you take the time to do it yourself, you learn so much about frequency response and EQ'ing that you will be able to apply that experience to your music production.

Headphone amps aren't inherently snake oil--it's when people spend money on the ones they don't need, that they become pointless. If your current setup provides plenty of power for your chosen headphone, without problems with noise and distortion, and the impedance matches, then you really have no need for an amp. It's only when you have those problems that you need an amp, but not just any amp---it should be an amp that will address all those issues. As for the people who claim an amp "opens up" the sound of a headphone, have they actually done double-blind tests with careful volume-matching to prove that? If not, then it's not reliable because our brains is too easily fooled by biases.
Thanks so much Lunatique. Your advice is saving me hundreds and really helping so much. So I'm going to buy a pair of 702s, and EQ them myself. I'll first try without an amp, and only buy the amp/DAC if they're too quiet / noisy.
Old 15th March 2016
  #3056
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by saurumanx View Post
Thanks so much Lunatique. Your advice is saving me hundreds and really helping so much. So I'm going to buy a pair of 702s, and EQ them myself. I'll first try without an amp, and only buy the amp/DAC if they're too quiet / noisy.

Please consider the AKG K7XX before you buy the K702. They are basically the K702AE, which improved on the low end over the K702. They are probably cheaper too. Only available via Massdrop.

I love my pair and my mixes improved a lot straight away and that's with no EQ.
Old 15th March 2016
  #3057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Funk View Post
Please consider the AKG K7XX before you buy the K702. They are basically the K702AE, which improved on the low end over the K702. They are probably cheaper too. Only available via Massdrop.

I love my pair and my mixes improved a lot straight away and that's with no EQ.
Wow, I was just about to hit the purchase button.

So I'm looking on Mass Drop, https://www.massdrop.com/buy/akg-k7x...ion-headphones
I think I have to wait for 200 people to show interest, and then we 'mass buy' for a discount?

It seems they've made a tweaked version, with a more 'neutral' bass. But it's limited edition, and that time has ended? So it's no longer possible to purchase these?


@ Lunatique

I'm currently reading your manual, and trying to EQ my Bose QC25s. I'm reading what's written about the Harman response. So... I should not try to EQ them flat, but according to the Harman Response? I'm not necessarily trying to make them sound 'good', only accurate to the source material.

For example, you the goal was to make them sound like 'good speakers in a good room', but my goal is to make them reveal mistakes in the sound source, and give me information e.g. if there's too much reverb, the clarinet is too loud, etc.

So should I still be aiming toward the Harman response?

Last edited by saurumanx; 15th March 2016 at 02:28 PM..
Old 15th March 2016
  #3058
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by saurumanx View Post
Wow, I was just about to hit the purchase button.

So I'm looking on Mass Drop, https://www.massdrop.com/buy/akg-k7x...ion-headphones
I think I have to wait for 200 people to show interest, and then we 'mass buy' for a discount?

It seems they've made a tweaked version, with a more 'neutral' bass. But it's limited edition, and that time has ended? So it's no longer possible to purchase these?


@ Lunatique

I'm currently reading your manual, and trying to EQ my Bose QC25s. I'm reading what's written about the Harman response. So... I should not try to EQ them flat, but according to the Harman Response? I'm not necessarily trying to make them sound 'good', only accurate to the source material.

For example, you the goal was to make them sound like 'good speakers in a good room', but my goal is to make them reveal mistakes in the sound source, and give me information e.g. if there's too much reverb, the clarinet is too loud, etc.

So should I still be aiming toward the Harman response?
They run this "drop" quite regularly. That limited (black/red) edition has only just ended. I'm pretty sure they will run another batch soon.
Old 15th March 2016
  #3059
Lives for gear
 
Lunatique's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by saurumanx View Post
Wow, I was just about to hit the purchase button.

So I'm looking on Mass Drop, https://www.massdrop.com/buy/akg-k7x...ion-headphones
I think I have to wait for 200 people to show interest, and then we 'mass buy' for a discount?

It seems they've made a tweaked version, with a more 'neutral' bass. But it's limited edition, and that time has ended? So it's no longer possible to purchase these?


@ Lunatique

I'm currently reading your manual, and trying to EQ my Bose QC25s. I'm reading what's written about the Harman response. So... I should not try to EQ them flat, but according to the Harman Response? I'm not necessarily trying to make them sound 'good', only accurate to the source material.

For example, you the goal was to make them sound like 'good speakers in a good room', but my goal is to make them reveal mistakes in the sound source, and give me information e.g. if there's too much reverb, the clarinet is too loud, etc.

So should I still be aiming toward the Harman response?
The Massdrop version of the AKG 7XX is definitely a better deal and more neutral sounding, especially for the price. But if price isn't a big deal, there are better headphones if you spend just a little bit more. Again, the Wall of Fame at InnerFidelity is the best guide available for the best headphones in all price ranges.

My golden rule for choosing headphones is to pick ones with default sonic signatures I can live with and really enjoy even without EQ, so that whenever EQing is not available, I can still listen to it without feeling like I'm really missing out on good sound. With that as my baseline standard, I can then EQ it to sound as close to neutral/accurate as possible.

As for the Harman Target Response Curve, it is close enough to neutral that I don't worry too much about it. Objectively, it's like taking the most accurate/neutral sounding pair of professional grade studio monitors and putting them in an acoustically ideal room (and no, anechoic chamber is not ideal), which means its sonic signature is inherently far, far better than most people's home studios. The average studio has significant issues with room modes that cannot be corrected with acoustic treatment alone (particularly the nulls in critical frequency ranges), and even with speaker/room correction products (such as IK Multimedia's ARC System 2), nulls are extremely difficult to address, and in many cases, impossible. Headphones do not have this problem, so objectively, if what you're getting with the Harman Target Response Curve is essentially a neutral pair of full-range speakers in an acoustically ideal room (meaning no weird room mode issues at all--basically like a good mastering studio), then how's that not a good thing?

The only reason why the Harman Target Response Curve isn't perfectly flat, is because it takes into consideration how sound interacts with the human body in a room (such as Head Related Transfer Function), and the fact that headphones cannot reproduce the kind of visceral low frequency feedback we get with speakers. The researchers addressed those concerns and built the curve to incorporate their solutions for those issues. So objectively, we can say that instead of sounding like a pair of flat headphones, it sounds like a good emulation of how a pair of neutral sounding speakers would be in an acoustically ideal room--which is most people's ideal situation anyway. An actually flat sounding pair of headphones would in fact sound like the sub-bass is a bit anemic, and the overall sonic signature a bit lacking in richness and liveliness, when compared to a pair of neutral speakers in an acoustically ideal room.
Old 16th March 2016
  #3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique View Post
The Massdrop version of the AKG 7XX is definitely a better deal and more neutral sounding, especially for the price. But if price isn't a big deal, there are better headphones if you spend just a little bit more. Again, the Wall of Fame at InnerFidelity is the best guide available for the best headphones in all price ranges.

My golden rule for choosing headphones is to pick ones with default sonic signatures I can live with and really enjoy even without EQ, so that whenever EQing is not available, I can still listen to it without feeling like I'm really missing out on good sound. With that as my baseline standard, I can then EQ it to sound as close to neutral/accurate as possible.

As for the Harman Target Response Curve, it is close enough to neutral that I don't worry too much about it. Objectively, it's like taking the most accurate/neutral sounding pair of professional grade studio monitors and putting them in an acoustically ideal room (and no, anechoic chamber is not ideal), which means its sonic signature is inherently far, far better than most people's home studios. The average studio has significant issues with room modes that cannot be corrected with acoustic treatment alone (particularly the nulls in critical frequency ranges), and even with speaker/room correction products (such as IK Multimedia's ARC System 2), nulls are extremely difficult to address, and in many cases, impossible. Headphones do not have this problem, so objectively, if what you're getting with the Harman Target Response Curve is essentially a neutral pair of full-range speakers in an acoustically ideal room (meaning no weird room mode issues at all--basically like a good mastering studio), then how's that not a good thing?

The only reason why the Harman Target Response Curve isn't perfectly flat, is because it takes into consideration how sound interacts with the human body in a room (such as Head Related Transfer Function), and the fact that headphones cannot reproduce the kind of visceral low frequency feedback we get with speakers. The researchers addressed those concerns and built the curve to incorporate their solutions for those issues. So objectively, we can say that instead of sounding like a pair of flat headphones, it sounds like a good emulation of how a pair of neutral sounding speakers would be in an acoustically ideal room--which is most people's ideal situation anyway. An actually flat sounding pair of headphones would in fact sound like the sub-bass is a bit anemic, and the overall sonic signature a bit lacking in richness and liveliness, when compared to a pair of neutral speakers in an acoustically ideal room.
Ok, thanks.

I keep looking at the Wall of Fame, but he has listed headphone, for example, the Senn 600s, which he writes are "forgiving", whereas I'm after "unforgiving" headphones.

Also, I've started EQing, and I'm doing it, but I'm worried I wouldn't be able to do it to a +/-0.9db accuracy the way Sonarworks does.

About the AKG 7xx. Appearently they require a lot of current, and so even though they're rated as 62 ohms, require a specific kind of amp feeding it a high current at a low voltage, otherwise they'll sound 'thin' etc. Any ideas about that?
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