The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Tips on getting sm57 and Royer 121 in phase on guitar cab?
Old 6th July 2010
  #1
Lives for gear
 
audiomichael's Avatar
 

Tips on getting sm57 and Royer 121 in phase on guitar cab?

I've been using my Royer 121 and SM57 separately on guitars for a long while, but I would like to combine them. I'm having a HARD time getting them in phase. I like the SM57 right up on the grill, but the 121 back about 6 inches. It seems impossible!!!

Anyone have some tips for me?
Old 6th July 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
Easiest way to actually check for phase is to invert the phase of one of the mics (let's say the Royer for example), and then move it around until you get the maximum cancellation, then put switch the phase back to normal on the track you switched. The reason you do this is that it's far easier to hear phase cancellation effects than it is to hear the reverse.

Hope that helps for ya.
Old 6th July 2010
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

I know it can be done, but I gave up on dual mics on cabs because of phasing problems. I usually just settle for either a PR30 or Sm7B, or better yet the Axe-fx is blowing me away lately thumbsup
Old 6th July 2010
  #4
Lives for gear
 
audiomichael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runnytofu View Post
Easiest way to actually check for phase is to invert the phase of one of the mics (let's say the Royer for example), and then move it around until you get the maximum cancellation, then put switch the phase back to normal on the track you switched. The reason you do this is that it's far easier to hear phase cancellation effects than it is to hear the reverse.

Hope that helps for ya.

Thanks! Gonna try that now
Old 6th July 2010
  #5
Lives for gear
 
audiomichael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveg62 View Post
I know it can be done, but I gave up on dual mics on cabs because of phasing problems. I usually just settle for either a PR30 or Sm7B, or better yet the Axe-fx is blowing me away lately thumbsup
I'm still waiting to hear an axefx tone that isn't really wet with fx. If you have any, I'd love to hear it. The fx in that thing are great, but I rarely use fx like that
Old 6th July 2010
  #6
Lives for gear
 
audiomichael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runnytofu View Post
Easiest way to actually check for phase is to invert the phase of one of the mics (let's say the Royer for example), and then move it around until you get the maximum cancellation, then put switch the phase back to normal on the track you switched. The reason you do this is that it's far easier to hear phase cancellation effects than it is to hear the reverse.

Hope that helps for ya.
Yep, that was a really easy way to phase align. However, it seems as though there IS no way to align the phase when the SM57 is up close, and the Royer is back 5-8 inches. They line up nicely when you get their capsules on the same plane, but the SM57 sounds bad when it's back, and the Royer sounds bad when it's up close. Unless there's a secret that I'm missing, then I'll just have them both setup in their sweet spot, and chose the mic that sounds best for the part.

<shucks>
Old 6th July 2010
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Daedalus77's Avatar
I used to feel your pain, but after dealing with similar issues, I've gone with the Royer alone, finding I can get whatever sound I want with judicious placement. Great mic for guitar amps.
Old 7th July 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
if you mod the 57 with a better transformer you can just ditch the 121
that's what I did I hated that mic really weird midrange
Old 7th July 2010
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Daedalus77's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
if you mod the 57 will a better transformer you can just ditch the 121
that's what I did I hated that mic really weird midrange
Wait, you hated the Royer or the un-modded 57?
Old 7th July 2010
  #10
Gear Addict
 

Chuck a delay on the SM57. If you are in pro tools the time adjuster plugin is good. You can flip the polarity and sweep the length of the delay until it thins out the most, then flip polarity back.

This method will work fine when there are only two mics you are trying to line up. More than two mics and placement becomes key..
Old 7th July 2010
  #11
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomichael View Post
Yep, that was a really easy way to phase align. However, it seems as though there IS no way to align the phase when the SM57 is up close, and the Royer is back 5-8 inches. They line up nicely when you get their capsules on the same plane, but the SM57 sounds bad when it's back, and the Royer sounds bad when it's up close. Unless there's a secret that I'm missing, then I'll just have them both setup in their sweet spot, and chose the mic that sounds best for the part.

<shucks>
Unless I'm misunderstanding, your thinking seems a little perverse here. You like the SM57 (by itself) up close, and you like the Royer (by itself) 5-8 inches back. But they're not in phase with each other like that. When you do move them until they're in phase, do you like the sound? Are you running them into separate channels so you can blend to taste? The 57 + the 121 combined are like a completely different mike than either the 57 or the 121 separately - either you like the sound or you don't. I happen to like it - although lately I've been using a Sennheiser e609 instead of the SM57. In any event, if you want them in phase you really have to forget about where they sound best individually. Or you could try a Little Labs IBP on one of them.
Old 7th July 2010
  #12
Lives for gear
 
audiomichael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parsonage View Post
Unless I'm misunderstanding, your thinking seems a little perverse here.
LOLOLOL!!! What else is new!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parsonage View Post
In any event, if you want them in phase you really have to forget about where they sound best individually. Or you could try a Little Labs IBP on one of them.
If that's how it is, then that's how it is. It seems to me that the way to approach it is to get both mics sounding great, then blend to taste. Not get 2 mics sounding crappy and hope that they blend together OK. It's probably just me, because I've heard some nice recordings with 57+121 combo.
I've tried the LL IBP UAD plugin, it's good, but doesn't totally repair bad phase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 View Post
I used to feel your pain, but after dealing with similar issues, I've gone with the Royer alone, finding I can get whatever sound I want with judicious placement. Great mic for guitar amps.
Yeah. I love the 121. You can almost just throw it on the couch and just let the amps rip, and you'll still get a nice tone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple View Post
Chuck a delay on the SM57. If you are in pro tools the time adjuster plugin is good. You can flip the polarity and sweep the length of the delay until it thins out the most, then flip polarity back.
That seems pretty much like the long version of IBP. I'm waaaaay to lazy for that.
Old 7th July 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
 
sound_music's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parsonage View Post
if you want them in phase you really have to forget about where they sound best individually. Or you could try a Little Labs IBP on one of them.
this pretty sums it up. if you can't get what you want the old fashioned way with placement, there are tools that allow you to put the mics where they sound best on their own and get them in phase anyhow. LL IBP and radial phazer are both great for this...
Old 7th July 2010
  #14
Gear Nut
 

I solo the two channels and send to the 'phones. Set one reverse-polarity. Get someone else to hit a low E - or send a 100Hz tone into the amp - while you listen on cans and move the mics. Low-level is good, as you need to hear the cans over the amp.

I always leave the close mic and move the more distant, though given the close mic sounds good, there's no real reason for this - it's the relationship between the mics that you're after.

Phase cancellation is most obvious at low frequencies, so low is good.
When you hear the most cancellation you're in the right spot.
Undo the reverse-polarity and you're set.

If you need a room mic the same principle applies - align to the close mic if thats the one you used before.

My usual setup - 57 or i5 or SM7 for close, depending on thin sound or thick, clean or OD,- Fathead or 421 for 2nd mic - I don't have a 121 - , U87 etc for room, 10' away if required. good talkback if not.

Don't be a slave to theory: If it sounds good, it's right.

HTH
AV
Old 7th July 2010
  #15
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 View Post
Wait, you hated the Royer or the un-modded 57?
both... on gtr anyway
Old 7th July 2010
  #16
Lives for gear
 
mikethedrummer's Avatar
What is the motivation for having one mic close and one mic kinda close? If the close mic is 1" from the grill, its probably about 3" from the cone, so to imply the 3:1 rule, the kinda close mic should be at least 9" away, 5-8 is too close and phase issues will definitely be occurring.

To combat this, I personally don't mess around with the close/far. I put both close, capsules equidistant from the cone, and match the levels. By using two totally different mics, 57-121, 421-414, etc, you can really get some big tones. They fill in each others gaps, if you will.

If you're still having issues just use one mic and bring the fader up a little higher when you're mixing... Or blend the mics with EQ, take the nice low end from the 121, pull out the mids, and leave the nice high end. Likewise, LPF the highs and HPF the lows from the 57.

Or just use one mic
Old 7th July 2010
  #17
Lives for gear
 
uncle duncan's Avatar
 

I totally understand the OP's concern about mic placement. Ribbon mics can get really boomy with close placement, and dynamics can get thin, so you find the best position for each one and then time-align the tracks in the DAW after they're recorded. That's basically the same as an earlier post talked about - using the time adjuster plugin in PT. If you don't have that plugin, you can align the waveforms in your DAW by scooting one track forward to match the peaks in other one.
Old 7th July 2010
  #18
Gear Addict
 

My go to setup is the 121/TG2 with a 57/Germ Pre, both up close and blend to taste. Unless the second mic is farther back (feet not inches) and it's a great sounding room, I find anything but both mics up close to be pretty useless. I have used the Royer back a half foot or so when I want it a little roomy, but I always put the 57 right in line with it.

When I first started using the two mics I would record a transient from both mics to two separate tracks in PT (just a staccato muted chunk). I would then zoom in on the waveforms and then move the 57 forward or backward to get it in phase and keep repeating until I had it perfectly in phase. This took me a little while at first, but now I can just throw the two mics up and nail it just by the look of the two mic relationship. That's why this gets really hard to do with one of the mics farther back. If this is what you want to do then I would suggest getting one of those boxes that lets you move the phase around of the second mic (Radial, Little Labs, etc.)

Changing the blend of the 121 and 57 close miced gives me pretty much any guitar sound I could think of and works with every amp and guitar I have.
Old 7th July 2010
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
both... on gtr anyway
Isn't a 57 and 121 almost the defacto mic'ing combo out there in the real world? I've listened to some stuff on the Royer demo CD that were done that way, without processing AFAIK, and I'd probably have a spontaneous orgasm if I could record something that sounded that gorgeous.
Old 7th July 2010
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Isn't a 57 and 121 almost the defacto mic'ing combo out there in the real world?
yes lots of people use that combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
I've listened to some stuff on the Royer demo CD that were done that way
I think everything on that CD is terrible sounding. Real weird midrange. That song by slash I heard
is so sloppy and slightly out of tune I couldn't believe how bad it was. Everything on there
sound like a demo recording to me. I hate the 121. I like beyer m160 much better for ribbon
also the new shure ribbons are much better than 121

what's strikes me as bizarre is if you need 2 mics to get good gtr tone
then one of those mics is not very good. That's the way I hear it
Old 7th July 2010
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
I think everything on that CD is terrible sounding. Real weird midrange.
Some of that stuff is absolutely immaculate sounding to me.

Quote:
what's strikes me as bizarre is if you need 2 mics to get good gtr tone then one of those mics is not very good. That's the way I hear it
I don't think that anyone claims you NEED more than one mic. But of course you don't NEED more than amp or one guitar or one microphone or one pre-amp or one anything, or to double parts, but people use more than one to create more flavors all the time.
Old 7th July 2010
  #22
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Some of that stuff is absolutely immaculate sounding to me.
I guess its a matter of taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
I don't think that anyone claims you NEED more than one mic. But of course you don't NEED more than amp or one guitar or one microphone or one pre-amp or one anything, or to double parts, but people use more than one to create more flavors all the time.
I suppose no one is claiming it, but actions speak louder than words. I can see 1 close mic and 1 distant mic for sure. But using a 57 and a 121 close miced appears as if 1 mic is not cutting it, so I need a second to capture something the first mic isn't? That's just the way it seems to me. not sure if this is the actual reason.

What is the frequency response of a 57? like 50hz to 18k ? That's more than enough for gtr. I hate the tubby mids on a stock 57 but if you upgrade the transformer it really makes a great mic for gtrs. Much better than a 121 and it cost you $150 not $1200.
Old 7th July 2010
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Aaron Miller's Avatar
I don't get why you need to put the 57 right up on the grill. Set up the Royer wherever it sounds best, say 4-6 inches back. If you can't get enough bite, set up the 57 center cone at exactly the same distance back. Blend to taste. No phase. Yes, the 57 will sound thin and harsh solo'd but that's exactly what you want to add to the thick, round, R121.
Old 7th July 2010
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
what's strikes me as bizarre is if you need 2 mics to get good gtr tone then one of those mics is not very good. That's the way I hear it
I couldn't disagree more with this statement.

If you're trying to capture a "modern rock" guitar tone, whether it be an Engl, Diezel, Bogner, Rectifier, et al, it's very difficult (IMO) to capture the entire sound with one microphone.

I know that many guys prefer the 121/57 or the 421/57 (and some guys prefer all three, a 121/57/421 combo), I'm from the Andy Johns school of a condenser mic and a 57.

I've yet to hear a recording of a high gain, modern rock amp (or even a mid-gain amp like a modified Plexi) sound amazing with a single mic.

Hell, even Van Halen's tone on their debut was captured with two 57's (and sounds like it).
Old 7th July 2010
  #25
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike P View Post
I couldn't disagree more with this statement.

If you're trying to capture a "modern rock" guitar tone, whether it be an Engl, Diezel, Bogner, Rectifier, et al, it's very difficult (IMO) to capture the entire sound with one microphone.

I know that many guys prefer the 121/57 or the 421/57 (and some guys prefer all three, a 121/57/421 combo), I'm from the Andy Johns school of a condenser mic and a 57.

I've yet to hear a recording of a high gain, modern rock amp (or even a mid-gain amp like a modified Plexi) sound amazing with a single mic.

Hell, even Van Halen's tone on their debut was captured with two 57's (and sounds like it).
yeah but Eddie used 1 celestion and 1 JBL on the 1st record....... big difference than micing the same type of speaker 2x in the same cab I'm referring to people who mic the same cab close with the same speakers and same position. Seems silly to me

I dunno one mic is often enough for me. I like a v30 and a EVM-12L sometimes but that's just for fun. Do whatever you need to. But when people bring up phasing problems the easiest solution is to just use 1 mic, not to mention that's all you really need. 2 mics are cool but 1 at distance is going to make a difference, not 2 at the same distance. Maybe 1 off axis ? It all does depends

I read here "the 57 will sound thin and harsh", a stock 57 may be harsh in the mids but if it sounds thin, the gtr and or amp is what sounds thin not the mic. To eliminate 57 harshness you take the transformer out or replace it. If you don't like 57s that's cool too, but there are better mics than a 57 & 121 regardless. m201, 421, u87, m160, 4038 etc...
Old 7th July 2010
  #26
Lives for gear
 
daniel c's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomichael View Post
That seems pretty much like the long version of IBP. I'm waaaaay to lazy for that.
......okay.....
Old 7th July 2010
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
yeah but Eddie used 1 celestion and 1 JBL on the 1st record....... big difference than micing the same type of speaker 2x in the same cab
I'm referring to people who mic the same cab close with the same speakers and same position. Seems silly to me

I dunno one mic is often enough for me. I like a v30 and a EVM-12L sometimes but that's just for fun. Do whatever you need to. But
when people bring up phasing problems the easiest solution is to just use 1 mic, not to mention that's all you really need. 2 mics are cool but a at distance is going to make a difference, not 2 at the same distance. Maybe 1 off axis ? It all does depend

I read here "the 57 will sound thin and harsh", a stock 57 may be harsh in the mids but if it sounds thin, the gtr and or amp is what sounds thin not the mic. To eliminate 57 harshness you take the transformer out or replace it. If you don't like 57s that's cool too, but there are better mics than a 57 & 121 regardless. m201, 421, u87, m160, 4038 etc...
Mike's query is different than most. He's trying to phase align one mic 6" behind a close mic. That's not your typical use in a multi-mic set up.

Go back and listen to the "Back in Black" album. The majority of that guitar sound is room mic, even though there's a little close mic added in.

I'll take a condenser paired with a dynamic any day of the week for rock, modern rock, metal, etc. over any one single mic.
Old 7th July 2010
  #28
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomichael View Post
I've been using my Royer 121 and SM57 separately on guitars for a long while, but I would like to combine them. I'm having a HARD time getting them in phase. I like the SM57 right up on the grill, but the 121 back about 6 inches. It seems impossible!!!

Anyone have some tips for me?
My tip is to close mic and line up the diaphragms of each as much as possible, then EQ to taste.

Unless you're in an extremely live room, I'm not following the idea of placing a 121 six inches back from your source. Six feet I can understand but six inches?
Old 7th July 2010
  #29
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike P View Post
Go back and listen to the "Back in Black" album. The majority of that guitar sound is room mic, even though there's a little close mic added in.
u87 according to Tony Platt Q&A here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike P View Post
I'll take a condenser paired with a dynamic any day of the week for rock, modern rock, metal, etc. over any one single mic.
but a 121 is a ribbon not a condenser.
Old 7th July 2010
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
u87 according to Tony Platt Q&A here

but a 121 is a ribbon not a condenser.
I'm talking about me, not anyone else. And I was referring to multi-mics, not just ribbon mics. I'm not that fond of the 121. I like the 122 better, but it's still not for me.

Plus, Andy told me (and taught me) about the condenser/dynamic thing a long time ago and in my experience, works perfectly.

As Fletcher is known to say, YMMV.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump