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Old 12th August 2002
Moderator emeritus

Originally posted by jon
Jules is right, your situation is a classic one.

P.S. I was in your situation and chose the slow way. Ten years later, I have one of the best rooms in the country...but that record never got finished.
You know, I started and ended up the same way - the record I started buying gear for is still not finished (10 years later), and while I don't have anywhere near one of the best rooms even in town, it's a nice workable environment. It's really easy to get lost once you start down this path...
Old 12th August 2002
Moderator emeritus

Originally posted by catfish11
thanks jon, jules, loudist, davemc, et al....

really all i want to do is record a good sounding acoustic guitar.

After reading all of these posts, I really think that the simple solution is to hone your guitar playing skills to the point that you can actually play everything that you want to record, then go to a commercial facility and do so. For the cost of building any sort of a decent signal path, you could fly to LA, rent a really nice room with a great engineer for a couple of days and do your project.

It's not as much fun as buying gear, but you have to look at it this way - every hour you spend reading a manual or experimenting with a preamp is an hour that you didn't spend playing guitar and improving your chops . And that's what you want to do.

10 years ago I was a much better bass player than I am today, and a much worse engineer. That suits my long term goals, but I don't think it is the way you need to go.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.
Old 14th August 2002
Gear Addict

Rather than buy closed hardware for 20,000.00 that will be obsolete in 3 years... right?
Stable platform? Pro Tools? HAH!
You continue to be rather rude loudist. Calm it! I'm merely saying it works for me and lots of others. Sure some people run their rigs poorly and maybe they shouldn't spend so much. I will never claim it's cost effective, but I will claim it works. My two is stable - that's the only one I'm talking about. The obsoleteness is answered by Digi's upgrade program, love it or hate it - they take your obsolete stuff and give you a reasonable trade-up. And that's something that never happens with Mac's or PC's (and thus all Native Systems).
Old 14th August 2002
Lives for gear
loudist's Avatar

Originally posted by Paul Turpin
Yeah waste a bunch of money on a "state of the art" computer to run native crap that will be outdated nearly immediately. One of the hidden bonuses of a nice ProTools rig (and there are many) - is that your computer can stay the same for while (and thus your rig is "stable) - even through upgrades
Paul, You seemed to be coming on kinda strong yourself, don't you think?
Those who live in glass houses ect. ect.

The obsoleteness is answered by Digi's upgrade program, love it or hate it - they take your obsolete stuff and give you a reasonable trade-up. And that's something that never happens with Mac's or PC's (and thus all Native Systems).
*cough*... Apogee has a pretty good upgrade program....*cough*
Old 15th August 2002
Gear Addict

loudist say :
Paul, You seemed to be coming on kinda strong yourself, don't you think?
Those who live in glass houses ect. ect.
Sorry - I was feeling pretty cranky. No hard feelings eh?
What I think is that all Catfish needs is for me to say "oooh its good" and you to say "no its too expensive, and not even all that good" and then decide for himself. But instead we start yelling at eachother instead of giving him advice. Ooops.

And of course I don't really mean that all Native systems are 'crap'. I just know that they won't do it for me with the specific things I do. If I had the system I really wanted - yes, it would be different - no I can't afford it (and, yes I'd still have ProTools around also - as a tool to get certain things done).

I do know that I read all kinds of posts on the DUC about guys having loads of problems with their HD rigs. But mine have been no problem at all - and especially when you're comparing it to the Mix rig that preceded it - they are a great step up. Either most of those guys on the DUC are idiots (a viewpoint held by many) or Digi has some real quality control problems and I'm just lucky. I tend to think its the first one though.

To ramble on a bit more. I don't think it can be underestimated how different you have to work to really work with ProTools well. Many of us hardcore PT users used it back when it sounded really quite bad (I've been onboard since SoundToolsII, 1987 or so) - and we developed techniques to avoid as much badness as was possible. Now that ProTools has developed and everybody uses it - there are lots of people who come to it with many assumptions and expectations that are just not accurate. It is not a replacement for traditional gear - it is a whole different beast altogether. Just because you shoudn't use a synth to recreate a horn player doesn't mean there's no good use for a synthesizer - and so it is with ProTools. Don't use it if you want a "Tape" sound - use it for what it does, not what you wish it was.
Old 15th August 2002
Lives for gear
loudist's Avatar

No Prob, Bro
You don't have the corner on the cranky market.

It does seem that there are conflicting opinions for our new pal, and recently married catfish.

RADAR while sounding great and can handle many editing functions, can't do the plugin thing, (yet, from what I have read), no MIDI, And needs a mixing desk.

Pro tools needs no explanation, but its mix bus is (still) less than desireable.

Native PC is getting pretty cutting edge right now.
I do wish I could have all software packages on the same screaming PC and do an A/B/C test of their mix busses compared with PT. I have heard subjective comments that the mix busses on other platform software packages (like Digital Performer) sound better.
Nuendo sounds good, has midi capabilities (Average) and will be dual processor capable,
Sonar is ok, marginal midi.
Cubase SX is much like Nuendo but has much better MIDI capabilities.
Logic is Apples baby now and they are cutting out the PC side of the sofware.

Cubase SX seems to be the better PC choice with dual processor support, and VST link capable, many different A/D/A converter flavors capable. Leaves a few more sheckles available for great mics, preamps, Dangerous 2 buss, and processing.

The idea that Pro Tools will beat a path to your door does not seem realistic in Catfish's case, as it looks like most things he will do will stay in-house. One can import audio and midi files into each and every one of these packages, but the 'session file' with edit decisions, plug in info, and automation are not able to be translated across as of yet. (Damn those propriety session files!!!).
Darn, this post is making things more complicated and less clear.... sorry.
Old 15th August 2002
There is only one
alphajerk's Avatar

man this thread went horribly awry.

you DONT need a PT system to make good recordings. you DONT need an SSL/NEVE/API to make good recordings.

to cater to local clients, YOU are going to be the draw of it. not some system. and if they ask you if you got PT, say what i say "i got something better" i make no qualms about it. i can get a recording done and done well on MY system [it might be different than YOUR system... but as long as you intimately know it]

it is so easy to rationalize you need the BEST of the BEST when you are in debt to the best, but it isnt reality. hell, great sonics arent a reality in modern recording even. there are a whole slew of artists who WANT it to sound "lo-fi" [beyond me but whatever floats their boat]

for $400-$600 a week, you dont need jack but a bunch of mic pres and mics and a native system that you know your way around. i mean $600 a week aint jack. a good room costs $1-2k a DAY.
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