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mix bus compression question Dynamics Plugins
Old 22nd March 2010
  #31
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ChampionAudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrusboy7 View Post
yeah, you gotta mix it up..
hmm, funny, i always looked at psp VW as harsher.
adding harm dist etc
Matter of taste, I guess. Though being more or less harsh/distorted/colored can be good or bad depending on a lot of variables including the engineer's impressions. However I think that's still a separate issue from being aggressive or transparent, etc.
Old 22nd March 2010
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChampionAudio View Post
Matter of taste, I guess. Though being more or less harsh/distorted/colored can be good or bad depending on a lot of variables including the engineer's impressions. However I think that's still a separate issue from being aggressive or transparent, etc.

good point.. don't get me wrong i use Vm a lot on
the bus as well, but if i had waves SSL i prob wouldnt as much
i would use the SSL along with fatso on subtle settings..

i'm curious as to what settings you use on the VW
to start off with ? i use either default and or master 1-4 and bring down the
drive, low, hi a few notches to taste.
Old 22nd March 2010
  #33
I rarely use the 2500. Its so aggressive that I hardly have a use for it. The SSL G-bus comp however... always seems to do exactly what I want. Kick and snare get a tad more punch and whole mix gels in a way that I just haven't heard elsewhere. But I do find myself using the auto release quite a bit. It seems to act like an opto and is the most transparent of any of the other release settings.

(talking about the waves plugins here)
Old 22nd March 2010
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaTr1x2051 View Post
I rarely use the 2500. Its so aggressive that I hardly have a use for it. The SSL G-bus comp however... always seems to do exactly what I want. Kick and snare get a tad more punch and whole mix gels in a way that I just haven't heard elsewhere. But I do find myself using the auto release quite a bit. It seems to act like an opto and is the most transparent of any of the other release settings.

(talking about the waves plugins here)
Well, I don't have Waves, so I can't speak for them, but I'd say all of the above about au plugin Cytomic The Glue... including the bit about auto release... It does just enough gentle pumping at a 2:1 with longest attack and auto release at 2-3db GR to really get some positive interaction between the drums and other instruments, but it does so without adding any other artifacts or discoloration. It's actually the only plug I've tried (out of 6 or 7) that does this properly.

VW... whole different animal. If you are looking for a special effect, want to ADD harshness, put some hair on it, etc... then it's good, but it simply will not give a good clean punch to anything without changing it significantly... perfect example of a plug where you play with it and think it sounds great... only to come back to the mix the next day, a/b it and realize you've lost something in the original mix along with all the distortion and compression.
Old 22nd March 2010
  #35
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Surbitone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalGropher View Post
Why EQ on the master like that when you've got the individual tracks there?
Simply because it sounds different. thumbsup
Old 22nd March 2010
  #36
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CrownBox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
It all completely depends on the mix, the compressor, and how it's set up. 6db on the Phoenix can be a thing of beauty. 6db on a 2500 can be a dream or a nightmare, depends on how you're achieving that 6db.

OP, the idea of 'glue' is that the compressor makes all of the various energies of the spectrum more interactive, and when done right it literally pulls the elements together into a more coherent whole. The weight of the low end can cause the entire mix to breathe in time with the music, overtly or subtly. Riffing electric guitars can swallow up sounds when they play and spit them back out when they go quiet.

Without compression, a kick drum (e.g.) doesn't have any effect on the movement or placement of the rest of the mix. You can have it balanced beautifully, you can automate it to be where it needs to be throughout the song, but you can never get it's motion to impact anything else. Once you slap a compressor on the mix, everything changes, everything is now a potential influence on the tone, level, and dynamics envelope of everything else.

Different comps react differently to different frequency ranges and degrees of energy, and the things they do in response are just as varied. Experiment, and expect to screw things up. Compression is difficult to master, mix compression is the hardest of the hard.

Not every mix or mixer needs it or benefits from it, so keep an open mind. Just because you have a tool doesn't mean you need to use it; if you hit bypass and like what you hear more, leave it bypassed.


Gregory Scott - ubk
That's one of the best, most understandable explanations given anywhere!
Old 22nd March 2010
  #37
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ChampionAudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeAl View Post
VW... whole different animal. If you are looking for a special effect, want to ADD harshness, put some hair on it, etc... then it's good, but it simply will not give a good clean punch to anything without changing it significantly...
Yep, and the arrangements I'm working with are mostly soft synth and drum samples, with a Triton piano patch and live bass tracked thru a sansamp. Some "hair" was definitely called for to bring it to life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrusboy7 View Post
i'm curious as to what settings you use on the VW to start off with ? i use either default and or master 1-4 and bring down the drive, low, hi a few notches to taste.
First, make sure multiband mode is off, fat mode on. set the knee to 60, switch the metering to ppm, and dial the drive back until i get 1.5-2 dB gain reduction, which ended up at -10. I set a pretty slow attack speed, and auto release. +1dB low shelf at 70Hz, -1dB high shelf at 12kHz. Then just dial in the output until my highest peak on the master fader is about -2.5dB.

Here's some samples, VW on and off. Keep in mind that the only purpose of this mix was for experimentation and my own amusement. If my producer friend ever wants to take his materiel to the next step and bring in his vocalist, the final mix will sound nothing like this. Comments are welcome, however.
Attached Files

Flue.mp3 (5.83 MB, 143 views)

Flue no VW.mp3 (5.83 MB, 142 views)

Old 22nd March 2010
  #38
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A little bus compression also simulate what the ear does when bombarded with loud sounds.
Old 22nd March 2010
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
A little bus compression also simulate what the ear does when bombarded with loud sounds.
And if you do it right, some broad characteristics of tape. Certainly not the same thing, though.
Old 22nd March 2010
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalGropher View Post
I suppose the last question I have on the subject is if the comp is doing it's job properly, the mix could be a little hotter as well, couldn't it? I'm used to recording hot to achieve a good S/N ratio and in mixing I'll use the trim plug in PT to bring the individual levels around -18-12dB depending on stuff.

So I'm thinking if that 2-3dB of comp is on there that i would be able to mix a little hotter and still achieve a nice sound. Fact or fiction? lol.
Ok so when you compress the mix bus your mix shouldn't really come out hotter. Compression should just even out the track. If, say, the beginning of your track is incredibly quiet and at the end there is a huge build up that destroys your speakers a mix compressor will even it out a bit. So pretty much its going to make your quiet parts louder and your loud parts a little quieter. A good bet would be to use a limiter on your whole mix if you want to gain a little bit of volume, it would basically work the same way but the threshold is the limit and nothing will go past stopping any peaks you may have.
Old 22nd March 2010
  #41
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChampionAudio View Post
Yep, and the arrangements I'm working with are mostly soft synth and drum samples, with a Triton piano patch and live bass tracked thru a sansamp. Some "hair" was definitely called for to bring it to life.



First, make sure multiband mode is off, fat mode on. set the knee to 60, switch the metering to ppm, and dial the drive back until i get 1.5-2 dB gain reduction, which ended up at -10. I set a pretty slow attack speed, and auto release. +1dB low shelf at 70Hz, -1dB high shelf at 12kHz. Then just dial in the output until my highest peak on the master fader is about -2.5dB.

Here's some samples, VW on and off. Keep in mind that the only purpose of this mix was for experimentation and my own amusement. If my producer friend ever wants to take his materiel to the next step and bring in his vocalist, the final mix will sound nothing like this. Comments are welcome, however.
Cool, Thanks alot..

Have you thought about gain staging using a trim or some type of gain plug first in the chain. and take it down to say - 14 ? thus making psp do all the gain work ? I heard it sounds better.. or maybe thats just for compressors that the input acts as threshold ? hmm is psp one of those too ?>
Old 22nd March 2010
  #42
Gear Nut
 

I had always used the ssl g-comp on the master and it sounded great, i mainly do punk/hardcore/metal, and sometimes some lighter rock stuff or funk, and with -4db gr, you cant go wrong, i like the 10ms attack and auto realease, or 30ms attack and release on .1, now i moved up to a drawmer 1968 mercenary edition, i run the signal out to it, and then back intro pro tools, into a stereo track and just export that stereo track.
the result is just a huge sounding mix all around, and much more warm, and detail the guitars just surround you, and drums are in the face, and the vocals find a nice place where to sit, not too loud, but present.

anyways always try new things, and if you can upgrade to a hw buss compressor, do it, you will not be dissapointed
Old 22nd March 2010
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrusboy7 View Post
Have you thought about gain staging using a trim or some type of gain plug first in the chain. and take it down to say - 14 ? thus making psp do all the gain work ? I heard it sounds better.. or maybe thats just for compressors that the input acts as threshold ? hmm is psp one of those too ?>

I read that thread a while back, tried it out, then I evidently forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder! And I work in Sonar, to boot, so I have a built in trim adjust without using a plug. It's been staring me in the face and it didn't automatically compute for me to do it on the master.
Old 22nd March 2010
  #44
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jbg08's Avatar
There are some really good explanations in this thread of what mixbus compression can do.

Can anyone point out some well-known mixes or post mixes they've done where the effects of mixbus compression can be heard?
Old 23rd March 2010
  #45
Guys, you just have to give it a try - if you like it use it - if you dont dont..
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