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New AX Series from ADAM Studio Monitors
Old 8th July 2010
  #391
Qha
Gear Head
 

It's almost midnight here so can't make the high volume test today. Tested on moderate level and the kick doesn't have any distortion, doesn't sound anything like your recording. I'll do the high volume test tomorrow.

Why do you take word "scientific" so personally, it's a compliment. :D It's a good thing that someone tries to analyze this issue.
Old 8th July 2010
  #392
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Big_Bang's Avatar
 

pronto ... Ok, I promiss not to bitchslap you anymore, but go back and you will see that you provoked and insulted me for the wrongful claims directed at me, my issue and my methods. And I guarantee you that even without my responses, you're doing that to yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qha View Post
It's almost midnight here so can't make the high volume test today. Tested on moderate level and the kick doesn't have any distortion, doesn't sound anything like your recording. I'll do the high volume test tomorrow.

Why do you take word "scientific" so personally, it's a compliment. :D It's a good thing that someone tries to analyze this issue.
I'm not taking it "personally", just think calling it science is a bit exaggerated. And its not distortion, its the port noise issue. But good to know that, thanks! Could be the first breath of fresh air here! Just to be sure, you tested the LPF sweep? A7x's ?
Old 8th July 2010
  #393
Qha
Gear Head
 

okay.. continue the cat fight in private messages thank you. How about concentrating on this monitor issue and whether it's global or not.

EDIT: didn't notice the latter part in your post. Yeah A7X's. I've tested some audacity sweeps on low levels without rattling or hearable noise. My monitors don't go very low though, about 47hz is quiet already. I'll test louder levels tomorrow
Old 8th July 2010
  #394
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Big_Bang's Avatar
 

Its over! I desperately tried to stick to the point but kept getting "boooo'ed" at without reason. That is the reason I bitch slaped him.

There is no point in doing high volume test for port noise. I think the definite test is the Acoustic LPF sweep I posted a couple of posts back. At mid volume should be enough to call it an actual problem in my opinion. My only gripe is that from a report I read here (cant remember if this thread or another) Thomann doesn´t acknowledge port noise as a valid reason - it is inherent to any bass reflex design. But what I have is absolutely unacceptable. I hope ADAM gives me a hand, I need to sort this out before August and I am really pondering switching to A3X's + Sub7.
Old 8th July 2010
  #395
Qha
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bang View Post
There is no point in doing high volume test for port noise. I think the definite test is the Acoustic LPF sweep I posted a couple of posts back. At mid volume should be enough to call it an actual problem in my opinion.
Alright. I think i'm safe then. Because in your recordings I definitely hear annoying rattling and when I play the originals myself I don't notice anything out of ordinary.

BTW How long should I "burn in" these monitors to expect the full quality? I've never owned studio monitors before. My logitech Z-4's with a sub seem to go lower, but omg the difference in clarity and stereo image.. It's unbelievable.
Old 8th July 2010
  #396
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica View Post
Hey i did not want to generalize that. sorry if it came across that way.
But yes, to me it was a slap in the face, when i first noticed the noises.

So let me correct that statement:





~35m², not untreated but could be better




i guess i've said approximatly a 100000times now that i monitor very low and the problem is even at "zimmerlautstärke" as we say here. a level, where you can hear absolutely nothing in surrounding rooms. So who needs a speaker that can't output that level w/o noises?? how loud do other people monitor here? 40dB?


but hey, i'm tired now, all i want is noisefree A7,8X but it just makes no sense to discuss here anymore. This thread seems to be like:
Let's all praise ADAM!! What???? You hear noises on your holy ADAMs? Then treat your ADAMs right, fool and now GTFO, stupid basscranker. :D

So i guess it's time for me to leave this thread. I made my experience with A8X and i was trying to be helpful and share it. Take it or leave it.
Wish you all a nice day.
Hey mate,

I monitor around 83db C-weighted but I never master stuff so I don’t crank the loudness but it is loud! I am yet to notice this, I did not mean to come off like I was saying you don’t know how to treat your speakers, sorry if I did. Hmmm.. You have contributed, ran tests and provided feedback to ADAM. That’s great.


Cheers.
Old 9th July 2010
  #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pronto View Post
okay,

i did test again the bass drum file A1

this time i moved my lazy ass and put the gain knob of my A7X @ 14+ DB

the cone jumps in my face, and yes its sound like big bang says.

to be honest with you all : IN MY TEST the speaker was totally cranked.

it was a pain to look at the cone during the test, i PERSONALLY never would do this again.


again this was with my speaker i dont know at which levels this happens with other a7x´ s.

cheers
Just picturing this is very funny, especially with all the build up. Funniest thread i've read in a while.


"this time i moved my lazy ass and put the gain knob of my A7X @ 14+ DB

the cone jumps in my face, and yes its sound like big bang says" LOLOLOLO


Oh and Big Bang i have a7x. I'll do your kik sweep test tomorrow and let you know how i get on. Just from the perspective that you might be able to get a second a7x set that function properly so no need to get the s3x and sub. I thought maybe it might ease the pain to know many people aren't getting the port noise, but maybe not. Anyway, i've really enjoyed reading your posts.

Oh...

Maybe i'm going to be in your shoes tomorrow

Damn...
Old 9th July 2010
  #398
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Big_Bang's Avatar
 



Thank you!

Please do, I think the kick LPF sweep is a pretty solid quick test.

And bring good news quick

That is exactly why I've been so active and reacted so strongly. Wanted to figure out what was what, I was certain I had a bad case of the rattles and normal p.n. - it is exactly the opposite,

So I figured many more might also be, but discussing apples in orange juice and vice-versa, we would never get anywhere !!

So far, It's ONLY evosilica, ardic and me confirming we are using the same "fruit name" and both have it loud and clear.
Old 9th July 2010
  #399
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Big_Bang's Avatar
 

Sorry, double posted editing... I simply cannot resist !!

I just went back to check who said what because of thomann, it was evosilica too who already spoke with them, they say port noise is "normal".... What I have is port noise, and it certainly isnt normal !!

maybe we got early prod runs ? Ardic, where did you get yours? Those are always prone to "hick-ups" - so the more reports the better on this subject to get this sorted out!

I am a sinner, I lie - for the sake of comedy and gearslutz, page 11 june 29th - priceless !! thumbsup
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by [B
Roc Mixwell[/B]
You are sending to much gain into them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pronto View Post
word
Old 9th July 2010
  #400
Lives for gear
 

Ok well just checked out my a7x with your kick sweep file and i don't hear what you recorded.

I'm presuming the sound you mean is that clipping like distortion sound?

I just get a clean kick through mine. I'm not monitoring at a high volume, but you said you recorded your port noise at low volume right?

So, i think get a new set of speakers. Since you've found a set you really like it would be a shame to have to go looking for another pair when i think the problem is only for some sets and most likely in the minority... i hope.

Of course this all makes me slightly nervous about the long term reliability of these speakers though for now i think i'm just going to relax. I imagine ADAM would be good to me should this port noise start to occur since it is now a partially recognised issue and you clearly aren't alone, maybe i'm being naive though.
Old 9th July 2010
  #401
Qha
Gear Head
 

Okay.. Here's my results with low volume, moderate volume and loud. Moderate is actually quite loud enough for a flat apartment.

In the moderate level when the drum is filtered there actually IS a hearable rattle/noise that is VERY quiet. With low volume, which is still okay for mixing, there's nothing there. If I put the speaker loud, I can definitely hear a short moment of rattling, but it still doesn't sound as bad as Big Bangs.

Yeah, so the problem exits, but for me the bass will resonate only when there's no other frequencies in the mix and you crank the volume very loud. It's a poor excuse to return these amazing monitors.

Mic is T.BONE SC1100 from 2 feet away using omni. The room is definitely not treated in any way (yet).
For comparison there's some dubstep recorded too.
Attached Files

A7X kick low volume.mp3 (2.25 MB, 396 views)

A7X kick moderate volume.mp3 (2.77 MB, 322 views)

A7X kick loud volume.mp3 (2.23 MB, 357 views)

A7X dubstep.mp3 (234.3 KB, 372 views)

Old 9th July 2010
  #402
Lives for gear
 

Ok i'm confused now.

BigBang, the original sound file you posted of the Kick with sweep (not your recorded file) already has this distortion type sound on it.

I just listened to your original file and your recorded file on my HD25 headphones and i hear the same sound. It is more pronouced on your recording but that is due to the mic's frequency response.

Am i not hearing the port noise you are talking about? I am presuming the noise is that digital peak type distortion sound like an insect buzzing it's wings?
This same sound is present in the original file.

What gives?
Old 9th July 2010
  #403
Gear Head
 

...that bing bang are posting jokeware.wav´s

which are infecting a7x series.
Old 9th July 2010
  #404
Lives for gear
 

ok discovered i also have port noise!!

Did a sine sweep. Get buzzing between 40 odd hz to 70 hz ish. I only get it over a certain volume. since i don't often monitor very loud due to neighbours i never heard it on sine sweeps before.

I think all of the speakers probably have this. Shame i can't test against my previous speakers to see the difference.

What to do?

This is kind of disappointing
Old 9th July 2010
  #405
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pronto View Post
...that bing bang are posting jokeware.wav´s

which are infecting a7x series.
Pronto. Don't bother...
Old 9th July 2010
  #406
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bang View Post
Sorry, double posted editing... I simply cannot resist !!

I just went back to check who said what because of thomann, it was evosilica too who already spoke with them, they say port noise is "normal".... What I have is port noise, and it certainly isnt normal !!

maybe we got early prod runs ? Ardic, where did you get yours? Those are always prone to "hick-ups" - so the more reports the better on this subject to get this sorted out!

I am a sinner, I lie - for the sake of comedy and gearslutz, page 11 june 29th - priceless !! thumbsup

Hi Big Bang. Wonder if you can post a piece of music that quickly shows port noise? Like that Jazz track you previously posted. That would be ideal. I'd like to test it on my set up. As stated in an earlier post, i've found i get port noise on sine waves between 40hz and 70hz above a certain volume. Damn. I have a feeling it's something inherent to the speaker design.
Old 9th July 2010
  #407
Lives for gear
 

Another idea. Big Bang do you have a sound measurement device? I have a cheapish device already. If you have a iphone there is one called 'decibel' you can download though i don't know how accurate it actually is, i imagine not great but probably within a good enough ballpark.

I wonder if we could test at what volume from a particular distance and at a particular frequency we start to get audible flutter buzz port noise. Perhaps it will be the same?

How about set your sine wave at 57hz and at -1 DbFS in your DAW?
Lets say having the sound device at 30cm from a speaker?
Test each speaker individually?
Write down the point in Db at which you start to hear the port noise?

How's that sound?

I can hear port noise clearly at -58db A weighted on both speakers (i can hear it faintly a bit before that), and the iphone actually matches this saying 58Db peak (peak is on the left, not the main number in the middle).

What do you get?
Old 9th July 2010
  #408
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Big_Bang's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qha View Post
Okay.. Here's my results with low volume, moderate volume and loud. Moderate is actually quite loud enough for a flat apartment.

In the moderate level when the drum is filtered there actually IS a hearable rattle/noise that is VERY quiet. With low volume, which is still okay for mixing, there's nothing there.
hmm.... dude, I can hear port noise in your low volume loud and clear! When the sweep reaches its lowest and starts coming back up, there is that high pitched whine (that I previously confused for rattleing) that then gets masked by the kick " 7khz-ish beater freq "


Quote:
Originally Posted by kedbear View Post
Ok i'm confused now.
BigBang, the original sound file you posted of the Kick with sweep (not your recorded file) already has this distortion type sound on it.

Am i not hearing the port noise you are talking about? I am presuming the noise is that digital peak type distortion sound like an insect buzzing it's wings?
This same sound is present in the original file.
Well, yeah it "could" be compared just a little to digital clipping, but I think that is a bit off.
Its a low end excessive turbulance flutter + a higher pitched ratteling type sound, together.
Of course, in the case of a quick kick, the effect is so fast, it can sound like clipping, or like ratteling

To even heighten audible effect, play the kick drum file with 3 fingers firmly up one of the ports. You'll hear the hi-freq content of the port noise even clearer

I dont hear any distortion on the LPF kick swep, double checked.
Again, L2 was slapped on at -0.4 with zero atten. guaranteed no digital clipping at all, and the sample is clean too. Checked the file and its hitting -2dB... Please double check you are gain staging correct.

And here is the double bass jazz file. I dont have an iPhone and I always get away asking a friend for an SPL meter when I need to calibrate something

That dubstep recording, well that is just too much content to distinguish from parasite noise...
Attached Files

David Dutch's D-Bass.mp3 (3.47 MB, 322 views)

Old 9th July 2010
  #409
Lives for gear
 
Big_Bang's Avatar
 

So as not to create even more confusion... the REAL case of port noise vs rattles.

same files as posted before,

A3 = mechanical rattles recorded from behind speaker
A2 = front ports, that also sounds like something is vibrating, not only low end air turbulance

files here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/5566244-post338.html

To me, the real rattles do sound like digital clipping, but the port noise hi-freq content sounds like "frrrrrrrrt" as someone mentioned before
Old 9th July 2010
  #410
Qha
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bang View Post
hmm.... dude, I can hear port noise in your low volume loud and clear! When the sweep reaches its lowest and starts coming back up, there is that high pitched whine (that I previously confused for rattleing) that then gets masked by the kick " 7khz-ish beater freq "
No that's probably just my room resonating. Mic isn't ideal either.
Old 9th July 2010
  #411
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bang View Post
hmm.... dude, I can hear port noise in your low volume loud and clear! When the sweep reaches its lowest and starts coming back up, there is that high pitched whine (that I previously confused for rattleing) that then gets masked by the kick " 7khz-ish beater freq "




Well, yeah it "could" be compared just a little to digital clipping, but I think that is a bit off.
Its a low end excessive turbulance flutter + a higher pitched ratteling type sound, together.
Of course, in the case of a quick kick, the effect is so fast, it can sound like clipping, or like ratteling

To even heighten audible effect, play the kick drum file with 3 fingers firmly up one of the ports. You'll hear the hi-freq content of the port noise even clearer

I dont hear any distortion on the LPF kick swep, double checked.
Again, L2 was slapped on at -0.4 with zero atten. guaranteed no digital clipping at all, and the sample is clean too. Checked the file and its hitting -2dB... Please double check you are gain staging correct.

And here is the double bass jazz file. I dont have an iPhone and I always get away asking a friend for an SPL meter when I need to calibrate something

That dubstep recording, well that is just too much content to distinguish from parasite noise...
Just to clarify. I'm not suggesting your kick sample was actually digitally clipping, it's just that the noise i hear on your clips sounds similar to digital clipping (like your A3 clips) and i can't hear port noise in your recorded sample of it. Both your recorded and original sample both have the weird noise which sounds like distortion to my ears through headphones.

Anyway....

I CAN hear port noise on my speakers when i play the sine wave over a certain volume. Loud and clear.

Can you undertake the test i suggestied?

Sine wave at 57hz and -1 Db FS in your DAW.
level meter 30cm from one speaker?
At what point do you hear port noise when slowly raising the volume?

I get it at -58Db. Would be interested to hear other peoples results.

Also re your jazz clip. I can't turn my speakers up loud enough to hear the port noise due to neighbours (though i played it pretty loud).

At what settings on your speakers and master out do you hear port noise in this sample? Eg if your speakers are set are set to 0, what Db level are you at on your interface when you start hearing port noise.

At exactly what second do you hear the first noise? That way i can test also.

Thanks. Let's get some data going...
Old 9th July 2010
  #412
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bang View Post
maybe we got early prod runs ? Ardic, where did you get yours? Those are always prone to "hick-ups" - so the more reports the better on this subject to get this sorted out!
I bought one of the first ones that ever got to my local store in a big city in Sweden so I guess they are pretty early produced. Maybe thats the closest to an explanation we ever going to get?

Anyway, Ive returned my pair so I cant investigate further what was wrong with them. They farted on kicksounds on low volumes, thats a return i my book.

// J
Old 9th July 2010
  #413
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Big_Bang's Avatar
 

kedbear,

This is what I am getting at. Apples and oranges. I hear zero distortion-type-sound in my Acoutic Kick LPF sweep, nor in my speaker recording A2.

A3 certainly sounds like digital clip.

I have no clue what you are reffering to, seriously. If its the flutterry, farty sound, that the damn port noise. Could it be your headphones membrane is being forced too hard on the low end? Lower end heads on propper HF amps will fart out easy, what is you impedance match on them?
On my HD650 pushed pretty hard... clean of distortion.

The answer to your DAW dB to speaker is in the mentioned post! its all there, I just didn't measure exterior SPL.

Finally, I am sorry, I´m going to be away from the speakers for a while. Also, I think I have very clearly descibed and reproduced the problem, and enthusiastically cooperated in getting us in the right track, so I will just sit tight ands wait for ADAM's word on this.

Christian !! Help us maintain our sanity here!! Any word from the lab yet?
Old 9th July 2010
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bang View Post
kedbear,

This is what I am getting at. Apples and oranges. I hear zero distortion-type-sound in my Acoutic Kick LPF sweep, nor in my speaker recording A2.

A3 certainly sounds like digital clip.

I have no clue what you are reffering to, seriously. If its the flutterry, farty sound, that the damn port noise. Could it be your headphones membrane is being forced too hard on the low end? Crappy heads on propper HF amps will fart out easy.

The answer to your DAW dB to speaker is in the mentioned post! its all there, I just didn't measure exterior SPL.

Finally, I am sorry, I´m going to be away from the speakers for a while. Also, I think I have very clearly descibed and reproduced the problem, and enthusiastically cooperated in getting us in the right track, so I will just sit tight ands wait for ADAM's word on this.

Christian !! Help us maintain our sanity here!! Any word from the lab yet?

Right, here we go. I'm going to try to be more clear.

I was wrong to say the digital clipping sound was similar to A2, i meant A3, A2 has the port noise sound that i have. I've changed my post so it's correct now.

so...

A3 - digital clipping like noise
A2 - Port noise sound


In regards to the Kick sample, my headphones are fine.. i'll explain.

On the original un-recorded sample clip of your swept kick drum you can hear a flutter buzz type sound from about 14sec onwards. You can hear it really clear around 20sec when you're most of the way through your eq sweep.

It is the same sound that is in your recorded version! but in your recorded version this sound is amplified by the frequency response of your mic and the speakers. In your original post you say...

"but as I filter through, there it shines, loud and clear."

All that is loud and clear to my ears is the same flutter buzz sound that is in the original sample except it's effectively been eq'd a bit so it sounds more prominent. At around 25 sec of your recorded version this 'port noise' is the same sound as the one coming from your sampled version. This clip of the kick is not showing me port noise, unless i'm missing something!

In terms of measuring the DAW Db to speaker, what would be useful is knowing when the sound starts because it may well be within the original design of the speakers. That was all. I wanted to tally what other users are finding. If several of us discover the same it's very likely it's a design thing. That was all...

ok... some calm now hopefully
Old 9th July 2010
  #415
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Big_Bang's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kedbear View Post
In terms of measuring the DAW Db to speaker, what would be useful is knowing when the sound starts because it may well be within the original design of the speakers. That was all. I wanted to tally what other users are finding. If several of us discover the same it's very likely it's a design thing. That was all...

ok... some calm now hopefully
Right you are, hence not accepting my test as "scientific"

The propper thing to do is to have ADAM to tell us how to evaluate the issue correctly. I sincerely don't want to add more to this rollercoaster ride.
Old 9th July 2010
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bang View Post
Right you are, hence not accepting my test as "scientific"

The propper thing to do is to have ADAM to tell us how to evaluate the issue correctly. I sincerely don't want to add more to this rollercoaster ride.
Well, your results (apart from the last kick drum one which i think is confusing things) are plain as day and i've found the same thing with sine waves on my A7X so there is obvious proof going on. We're within the realms of amateur science here! Enough for ADAM to take it seriously, so we're getting somewherethumbsup

I've contacted ADAM as well, would just be interested to know other peoples reults with my 'test'.
Old 10th July 2010
  #417
Qha
Gear Head
 

Interesting. Now I did some 40hz-100hz sweeps and compared my 2 pairs. Turns out the left one (the one I recorded previously) distorts sine at around 50hz. It makes sine sound more like triangle to me, it also makes it sound a bit louder. The right one has no problems whatsoever.

Hmm.. should I return the other one. I've yet to hear any problems in any songs in practice though.

I expected too much from 2.0 setup, for example my 100€ 2.1 logitechs go so much deeper in bass area. Without deep bass frequencies metal and electronic music just appears to lack something. I need a sub.

EDIT: and don't get me wrong, the bass goes very deep with these, more than enough for basslines to be completely clear and all. But the bass kicks and explosions aren't that body-shaking (20hz - 50hz area) and I'm used to 2.1 sound.
Old 10th July 2010
  #418
Gear Head
 

Any power issues with the new monitors like with the old ones?
Old 11th July 2010
  #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qha View Post
Interesting. Now I did some 40hz-100hz sweeps and compared my 2 pairs. Turns out the left one (the one I recorded previously) distorts sine at around 50hz. It makes sine sound more like triangle to me, it also makes it sound a bit louder. The right one has no problems whatsoever.

Hmm.. should I return the other one. I've yet to hear any problems in any songs in practice though.

I expected too much from 2.0 setup, for example my 100€ 2.1 logitechs go so much deeper in bass area. Without deep bass frequencies metal and electronic music just appears to lack something. I need a sub.

EDIT: and don't get me wrong, the bass goes very deep with these, more than enough for basslines to be completely clear and all. But the bass kicks and explosions aren't that body-shaking (20hz - 50hz area) and I'm used to 2.1 sound.
so you hear no port noise at all if you set a sine wave around 57hz and start to increase the volume?
If you hear no noise then i'm going to have to send my speakers back.
Old 11th July 2010
  #420
Qha
Gear Head
 

Okay I've pinpointed my problem. My two A7X's behave very differently. The other is a perfect unit. Sines sound like sines all the way to the bottom. I can generate port noise by playing 45hz very loud. I don't think theres anything abnormal with that, it's basicly torturing the poor monitor.

The other monitor however distorts the sine with 40hz-90hz using moderate volumes. It sound like somethings rattling in the cone itself so it's not port noise. I know it's not my signal chain because even if I swap the monitor cables other way around I get the same results.

So I've got both a faulty unit and a working unit. This should be a relief to all of you with major problems. If your monitors rattle with moderate low sine frequensies they're likely to be faulty.

A/B recordings coming soon so you'll hear how my better unit behaves.
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