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The Dangerous 2 Bus review Digital Converters
Old 19th June 2002
  #31
Well you could certainly set it up and see if you preferred it!



Dang! I just noticed how popular this thread is!

I am really pleased with the mix I did today on my D2B!

I love Pro Tools and I like analog outboard at mixdown.

Old 19th June 2002
  #32
"do you think that people may want to see a summing box that does use, say Neve-style or SSL-style circuitry? Just a thought..."

Has anyone tried the Rupert Neve Amek summing system yet? I heard it sounds really good, with a tinge of color as compared with the D2B which is transparent.
Old 19th June 2002
  #33
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subspace's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
Jules, Do you think It would be advantageous to spread 16 outs to a Mackie 8bus?? I know some folk are gonna kill me for mentioning the Mackie, but there is sound reasoning for my question. I knowtice on the mackie, the EQ's have problems, and the Pre amps are no good (Don't think I have to explain this here).
However, I'd only be using the line amps and the summing. Does anyone have an opinion on this board without EQ inserted, and using only the line amps???

Also does anyone know of someone who does upgrades to the mackie line amps and monitor section>>
I'm not Jules, but I've got a couple of suggestions for getting better summing on a Mackie 8-Bus. Connect your D/As to the line inputs, not the tape returns, and use the input trims to keep the channel levels conservatively low. Select the line inputs as the source for the Mix-B section, rather than the normal tape returns, and leave the level knobs at unity. Your Mix-B outputs will carry your final mix.
It's possible to pad the individual output's levels before the D/A conversion, but then you're throwing away resolution. The idea is to keep each channel's level low from the input so there's more headroom when they're summed. The Mackie is a pretty quiet mixer, so being able to run conservative levels plays to one of it's strengths.
I suggest using the Mix-B section for summing rather than the main bus because it simply sounds better. I noticed the low end would disappear when I switched from my Mix-B monitor mix to the main faders, so I did a comparison. Sure enough, the main faders feeding the L/R mix bus chopped off the bottom end when compared to the same unity balance on the Mix-B bus. I imagine it has to do with the extra circuitry in the main mix path, and the crappy faders. Crosstalk is usually a bit worse on Mix-B and you only get level knobs rather than faders, but if you're setting your balances using the input trims they'll be left at unity anyway.
When I originally tested this out, I found the Mix-B summed mixes were killing my internal DP mixes. From there I decided to make my next upgrade a better analog console rather than worry about the latest, greatest thing in digital mixing. HTH
Old 19th June 2002
  #34
What a great tip!

Old 23rd June 2002
  #35
lnd
Gear Head
 

OK then jules whats the conclusion

So Jules then do you recommend buying this unit? - is the cost verses results worth it.. I intened to just mix sraight out into this mixer (no further outboard) and capture the stereo master. My goal is to retain the depth that sort of seems to disappear especially wwhen it comes to lead vocals when I mix inside pro tools...
Funny that I can now pick internally mixed pro tools songs - my friend had his song played on radio and immediately I rang him and asked him if his mix was all internal...guess what ...
Old 25th June 2002
  #36
Its ideal if you want that summing and dont have the real estate or inclination for a whole desk...

The new generation PT with 96k, gradual internal mixer tweaks along the way and a newer generation of plugs might be all folks need..... in the future..

but the D2B 'cheers up' the Mix + range IMHO.

Old 25th June 2002
  #37
lnd
Gear Head
 

so in essence the D2B is subtle - not a night and day difference???
Old 25th June 2002
  #38
No I would call analog summing of PT Mix + a big stride forward.... for me.

"Cheers up" means that in combo with my outboard I am able to get Kick drum fattness in my high track count PT mixdowns.

Jules
Old 14th July 2002
  #39
Here for the gear
 

I am just curious here but is this 2Buss issue fixed in PT HD, or if I buy this box (Dangerous 2 Buss) will it be an improvement even over the new 5.3 software in PT HD?
Old 15th July 2002
  #40
I havent done a trial with HD or know enough detail on the improvements to comment.

Sorry



Some folks just like analog summing, and this is just one device of many that can do it. One that fits in a 2U 19 inch rackspace.

Old 15th July 2002
  #41
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I've auditioned the Dangerous2B in the studio. IMHO, the results will vary greatly from user to user and by genre.

The more tracks you are mixing and the hotter you're running your mix levels, the more the D2B is likely to help.

As Jules pointed out, the ability to drop analog gear on the busses without any additional A/D/A conversion issues is a plus as well. Assuming you're printing to analog as many of us are these days.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 18th July 2002
  #42
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
"do you think that people may want to see a summing box that does use, say Neve-style or SSL-style circuitry? Just a thought..."

Has anyone tried the Rupert Neve Amek summing system yet? I heard it sounds really good, with a tinge of color as compared with the D2B which is transparent.

Where do I find this Rupert Neve Amek summing system? I went to the Amek web site but did'nt find it, mabey I just did'nt know what I was looking for.
Also, does any of you have a tip for getting a stereo buss compressor to work on these things if you're planning to mix back into protools? I'm stumped.
Old 18th July 2002
  #43
It is in the Neve Amek range, it is called the Pure Path Driver In a Box (DIB) system. It is NOT pre made, you will need a good tech to build you a summing rig from several units, you may need as many as 3 or 4 of the units to make up the summing bus...

There is a cool brochure on the DIB that helps explains all the weird things that these DIB units can get up to....

Rob Darling who posts here has made one himself,

He said it ROCKED!

But was VERY expencive!!!!

Old 19th April 2005
  #44
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the idea of analog summing is cool, but i'm not so sure about the process of going out some converters into a box and then back into some converters.. The analog "sound" is great i'm sure, but to me, it seems that you're going to end up with the "sound" of your convertes / DAW setup.
I would have to hear an amazing difference for me spend a few grand on a box that makes you convert your music twice....any samples that you guys can put up for A/Bing?

-Phil
Old 19th April 2005
  #45
Old 19th April 2005
  #46
You are really better off getting one in your own studio than trying to tell the difference from MP3's (or even AIFF's) of music you dont know...
Old 19th April 2005
  #47
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Phil Gorey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
You are really better off getting one in your own studio than trying to tell the difference from MP3's (or even AIFF's) of music you dont know...
I'm going to get flamed for this, but really, it wouldn't matter what format the files were to compare and really, that's why I made the first comment. In the digital world, there are conversions. Whether you are exporting audio, burning a cd, recording or mixing audio in the box etc.

What i'm getting at is that if I couldn't hear this box kicking ass by comparing the original mix in the box to the dangerous mix out of the box and back into it, even if I were comparing some crappy mp3 or aiff or wav, then what is the real incentive for buying it?
Basically you're being sold on geeks hyping up something that about 80 percent of the people in world can't even here. Is something like this box really imperitive to translate a good performance or mix into a amazing sounding end product?

I'm not trying to get into a debate whether MP3s are acceptable and I love hi-fidelity and mixes that lack digital crunch, but these kind of boxes seem more like a gimmick to make profit off of the transition from analog to digital.
I don't really see these units as peices of gear that really make a difference in your studio----at home or in a professional facility.
Old 19th April 2005
  #48
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Hey guys... I know this is a little offtopic... but still relevant. I use Nuendo and Cubase (versions 3.x). When doing a BIG mix I sum on the studio console. When at home in my project studio I sum on a Yamaha O1v96 with the stereo out going through a UA 2192. I agree most external summing busses sound better than the internal of a DAW.

However... Nuendo/Cubase 3.x have a feature that is INCREDIBLE for interfacing hardware gear. They have a Hardware Insert Plug-in that allows you to interface external hardware. Now... before you all say.... "we have that".... this one AUTOMATICALLY compensates for latency!

When you set it up, it "pings" the signal chain and reports the latency and then adjusts the entire mixer to it! You can create as many of these "hardware inserts" as you like (depending on how much i/o you have), and the mixer will FULLY compensate the latency for all of them! You can assign it to ANY available hardware input and output. It works like a dream... and you don't have the problem of moving faders affecting your compression... etc. The fader inside Nuendo/Cubase is AFTER this insert.

It does make a HUGE difference for me. I have some nice converters, and nice outboard gear.... so dropping REAL hardware into the software mixer with no latency issues is just ABSOLUTELY the best of both worlds for me.

Just a thing to check out for you Steinberg or Steinberg interested guys....
Old 19th April 2005
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Gorey
I don't really see these units as peices of gear that really make a difference in your studio----at home or in a professional facility.
oh hell, i'll chime in.
in my case one of those pieces of gear made a huge difference, but it came at a price, and i don't mean just $$$.

i use an API8200a line mixer to do all my summing these days, heck, i even track thru the thing sometimes and yes, it makes a big positive difference.
the price to pay, aside from the cost of the machine, is that you have mix with/for it.
in other words, i have to remix from scratch, i can't just run tracks or stems to it and that's it, no, i have to rebuild each mix from the ground up.
for one thing, the moment i send a mono track out the API mixer i immediatly lose my panning in my DAW so you can probably get an idea of what comes next.
is it worth it?

the answer is a resounding yes.
for one thing i use nearly no plugs these days, that could be a consequence of using an API product, also this is not a summing box, it's a mixer.
i don't know, the thing sure sounds sweet.

i have considered posting examples but how will that help?
i mean, what's the point in anyone listening to an ITB mix that has been reworked to fit a new piece of analog gear? how can you really compare? it's a total redo, not really fair.

sorry to stray, i know this is about the Dangerous piece, just my very humble $0.2.

peace!

FM

FM could tell you, but then he'd have to kill you.
Old 20th April 2005
  #50
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Gorey

but these kind of boxes seem more like a gimmick to make profit off of the transition from analog to digital.

I don't really see these units as peices of gear that really make a difference in your studio----at home or in a professional facility.
Instead of looking at them. Try listening to them.

IM(not so)HO, if you don't hear a big difference:

A. You are deaf.
B. Your mixes are so bad it doesn't really matter how it's summed.
Old 22nd April 2005
  #51
Gear Head
 
Phil Gorey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher
Instead of looking at them. Try listening to them.

IM(not so)HO, if you don't hear a big difference:

A. You are deaf.
B. Your mixes are so bad it doesn't really matter how it's summed.
...thought about not even responding to this, because this forum is going in circles...

I'm sure I could hear a difference...What I'm asking is if it would be worth it to throw down 3 grand for something that forces you to run through additional a/d.

My comments have no relation to my critical listening abilities...
And yes, experiencing something is much more beneficial than conceptualizing...
I don't have the money to buy one...flat out. Maybe I can have them send me a demo, because I would love to hear it. heh
Old 22nd April 2005
  #52
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FMNYC's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Gorey
I'm sure I could hear a difference...What I'm asking is if it would be worth it to throw down 3 grand for something that forces you to run through additional a/d.
heh
in my opinion yes, it's worth it.
and this is just me, i would not get the D2B but would look into something like the 8200A.
as a user i can say that it's an amazing piece of gear.

you know, the whole OTB summing thing is not for everyone, regardless of the benefits.
it is a lot of extra work, you need to really plan your mixing and it tends, in my case, to slow me down creatively.
there's something to be said for having the ability to run 30 plus tracks and not have to worry about submixing OTB and later realising that one or more instruments need to be adjusted.

also you bring up a very important point; there is extra AD/DA conversion to consider.

still, i will continue working OTB, i'm a believer.

peace!

FM

FM will totally do it for all the tea in China.
Old 22nd April 2005
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher
Instead of looking at them. Try listening to them.

IM(not so)HO, if you don't hear a big difference:

A. You are deaf.
B. Your mixes are so bad it doesn't really matter how it's summed.
So now that you have your Control 24 and your external summing, at the end of the day how content are you not to have a console? Has it sonically gotten you almost there? And BTW, are you still using the old Digi Mix converters or have you moved on to something else? If you're still using the 888/24 boxes, those things have a distinct "tone" and will make a much bigger difference to your sound than the D2B. People that use the new Apogee converters seem to like external summing alot. With my (probably) more transparent HD 192 I didn't really notice much difference.

Getting some analog tone on your mixes is invaluable. But now that you have your stems going out to an analog box, don't you want to just reach over and tweak a little eq on some channels, and just nudge a fader a bit?

There are a lot of factors at work--just buying a summing box is only one piece of the scenario.

-R
Old 22nd April 2005
  #54
Lives for gear
I notice a big difference whether using Digi 192I/O covertors on HD or going in and out of a 001!
Either way, the Dangerous makes a huge improvement over mixing entirely into that one stereo output ITB.
Old 22nd April 2005
  #55
no ssl yet
Guest
RKrizman is right

I like mixing with the folcrom more than mixing without and its a definate improvement. BUT it does leave you wishing to lean over and move faders/tweak Eq.

MY friends I think we honesly want consoles
Old 22nd April 2005
  #56
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FMNYC's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
I like mixing with the folcrom more than mixing without and its a definate improvement. BUT it does leave you wishing to lean over and move faders/tweak Eq.

MY friends I think we honesly want consoles
for me, that is one one TRUE statement.
no doubt.

FM

FM was raised on radio.
Old 22nd April 2005
  #57
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
I like mixing with the folcrom more than mixing without and its a definate improvement. BUT it does leave you wishing to lean over and move faders/tweak Eq.

MY friends I think we honesly want consoles
So get a Folcrom and then add a rack of 16 Speck eq's (didn't he make some box with 16 eq's?) and some faders. Voila. You've already got some hip thing for monitor control and headphones.

-R
Old 31st July 2007
  #58
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It amazes me to know that this thread is over 5 years old. It still makes for a very good read! Not to mention it is informative!
Old 8th April 2010
  #59
I can't believe this thread dates back to 2002 and I'm posting in it again also. I'm considering buying a D2B (for the second time) and found this thread really informative as well.

We're now in PT 8.0 HD so there have been lots of improvements all around obviously in terms of the HD Mixbus. That said, I am still curious about this unit and am going to try and demo one next month. A producer I know said he tried the D2B and the Tube Tech summing box and he went with the Tube Tech.

I'm wondering if anyone else A/Bed those two units and which one you preferred and why?
Old 17th June 2010
  #60
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I just bought a second hand Dangerous Music 2-bus. I sold my RAMSA DA-7 to buy it. It arrived today. It looks absolutlely fabulous and appears to be very well made. I am looking forward to using it tomorrow with my PT HD2 system (with a Rosetta 800 and 192).
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