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Will a Digi 002 slave to an Apogee Big Ben? Digital Converters
Old 18th October 2005
  #1
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Will a Digi 002 slave to an Apogee Big Ben?

Someone told me that I could use a Big Ben with a Digi 002 Workstation-is that true? Or will the Digi not slave to anything?

Thanks.
Old 18th October 2005
  #2
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joaquin's Avatar
 

do not know the bigben, but the 002 will clock externaly only via ADAT or SPDIF...I think that you'll need a Big Ben, and Rossetta 200...clock this last one via WC to the big Ben, and the 002 to the 200

Maybe not...
http://www.apogeedigital.com/product...?show=features
Old 18th October 2005
  #3
Gear Nut
 

doesn't the BB have a spdif out (not really spdif)? It wouldn't have audio in the signal (unless it does a pass through of the spdif input) but it must pass sync info.

unless you have more than 1 device you need to sync I think you'd benefit more from a 2ch AD converter or similair.
Old 18th October 2005
  #4
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Rezman's Avatar
 

In short the answer to your question is Yes.

You can set the 002 to clock off either ADAT or SPDIF connected to the big ben.

R
Old 18th October 2005
  #5
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Yes, I have my DIGI-002 slaved via ADAT to an RME ADI-8 DS. To add another thing, I believe the max samplerate that the DIGI will take via ADAT is 48. Lame, but it works.
Old 18th October 2005
  #6
I believe the 48k limit is because of the lightpipe's inherent limitation. You can't get 96k audio or clock signal down a lightpipe cable. If you wanted to try to do 96k, try the SPDIF (not that I've actually done it with an 002, but that's what I'd try).
Old 18th October 2005
  #7
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the lightpipe interconnect is capable of 96k by using S/MUX. this lets you send 8 chans one direction at 96k, instead of 16 chans (8 each way) at 48k. the 002, however, does not support S/MUXing... likely because digi wants you to buy HD if you want to do 96k.

--jon
Old 18th October 2005
  #8
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Indeed, I could do 96k with lightpipe with my RME ADI-8 DS into my RME 96/52 using the "double sampling" method, but although my A/D-D/A supports this, I suppose the DIGI doesn't. Oh well, I don't use 96k anyways.
Old 12th December 2005
  #9
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Did you try? Does it work? Does it make a difference? Digi-002 clocked to Big Ben via Spdif?
Old 12th December 2005
  #10
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Jeff16years's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbystereo
I believe the 48k limit is because of the lightpipe's inherent limitation. You can't get 96k audio or clock signal down a lightpipe cable. If you wanted to try to do 96k, try the SPDIF (not that I've actually done it with an 002, but that's what I'd try).
in theory yes, in protools LE no.

if you are using a digital input in PTLE your maximum sample rate is 48k
Old 12th December 2005
  #11
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YEah, you'd probably be better off with a Rosetta 800 or 200. At least you'll get quality conversion.

But while on topic, can you connect a ad16x to a digi002 (eventhough 002 only supports an extra 10 channels) and then use the clock in the ad16x as well?
Old 12th December 2005
  #12
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StoneinaPond's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff16years
in theory yes, in protools LE no.

if you are using a digital input in PTLE your maximum sample rate is 48k
Not true.

From Digidesign's Answer Base:

Quote:
Do the S/PDIF (SPDIF) I/O connectors on the 002 support 96 kHz?

The optical connectors on the 002 support either 8 channels of ADAT I/O (up to 48 kHz) or 2 channels of Optical S/PDIF I/O (up to 96 kHz).

The BNC (RCA) connectors on the 002 support 2 channels of S/PDIF I/O, up to 24-bit, 96 kHz.
Old 12th December 2005
  #13
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Do the S/PDIF (SPDIF) I/O connectors on the 002 support 96 kHz?

The optical connectors on the 002 support either 8 channels of ADAT I/O (up to 48 kHz) or 2 channels of Optical S/PDIF I/O (up to 96 kHz).

The BNC (RCA) connectors on the 002 support 2 channels of S/PDIF I/O, up to 24-bit, 96 kHz.
knew about the 96k & SPDIF but not 2 channels of adat up to 96k on digi002. I know they cant be used at the same time because of clocking issues???

would be nice to have S/MUX......Would this be a 002 firmware or PT software upgrade
Old 12th December 2005
  #14
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StoneinaPond's Avatar
[QUOTE=nukmusic]
Quote:
....would be nice to have S/MUX......Would this be a 002 firmware or PT software upgrade
Both, but primarily hardware.

And therefore unlikely to happen.
Old 13th December 2005
  #15
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jslevin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
knew about the 96k & SPDIF but not 2 channels of adat up to 96k on digi002. I know they cant be used at the same time because of clocking issues??? would be nice to have S/MUX......Would this be a 002 firmware or PT software upgrade
Well, it's not "2 channels of adat up to 96k" it's just regular old two-channel S/PDIF over the same optical port. The 002 isn't ever likely to support S/MUX -- and by the way, none of the HD interfaces support it either. However, the M-Audio Firewire 1814 does support S/MUX, and runs Pro Tools M-Powered.
Old 13th December 2005
  #16
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Jeff16years's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneinaPond
Not true.

From Digidesign's Answer Base:
well, i heard this a long time ago and tried it. if i have a session open in 96k it will not let me select spdif as an input....


i'll try it again.
Old 22nd December 2005
  #17
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=StoneinaPond]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic

Both, but primarily hardware.

And therefore unlikely to happen.
maybe in the 003? heh
Old 2nd January 2006
  #18
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nukmusic's Avatar
 



with good pre's and mics:

002r clock with Big Ben

or

002r with Rosetta 800/96

would the difference justice the extra cost of the Rosetta???


I heard the difference between the 001, 002r and Rosetta 800 but havent have a chance to compared them clocked to a Big ben.

mainly u87ai/vt737 >>001/rosetta >>hR824's
Old 2nd January 2006
  #19
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meteor's Avatar
 

Simple answer to your problem (I use a 002 for a portable and writing rig) ... get a really good 2 channel AD that has a wordclock and a spdif out(I use a mytek 96- it's around $900 and the internal clock is amazing). tell PTLE to clock to the spdif input and the sound of the whole thing will improve dramatically. If you want to use the ADAT input on the 002 wire a short BNC from the WC out of the Mytek(or whatever you want) into WC input the device you are using for ADAT and make that device clock externally.

The short answer about the BigBen is ... If you are not using outboard converters for your 002 why in the hell would you get a clock that cost more than the interface? If you are using outboard converters get converters that already have great clocks (AD16X, Mytek, Lavry...) instead of frankensteining an expensive solution together.

Cheers,
Old 2nd January 2006
  #20
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
Did you try? Does it work? Does it make a difference? Digi-002 clocked to Big Ben via Spdif?
I've got mine clocked to a Rosetta 800 and the inputs and outputs on the 002 sound better when it's clocked that way.
Old 2nd January 2006
  #21
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Plan to get HD system with 192 (16 I/O's) clocked with a BigBen. I was looking at getting the rosetta 800 for now and when i upgrade either sell it or buy another one with the apogee/Protools cards and not used a 192. heh heh
Old 10th January 2006
  #22
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Mike Jasper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by meteor
The short answer about the BigBen is ... If you are not using outboard converters for your 002 why in the hell would you get a clock that cost more than the interface? If you are using outboard converters get converters that already have great clocks (AD16X, Mytek, Lavry...) instead of frankensteining an expensive solution together.
Yeah, but there are three components in play here -- A/D, clock and D/A. A Rosetta 200/Big Ben combination takes care of all three, and a lot cheaper than the AD16X. And anything made by Lavry.

Probably not cheaper than the Myteks, though. A Mytek A/D, D/A combo might be another cost effective solution. But you're still buying two items -- it's just tidier than the Rosetta/BigBen combo.

Here's a good question: Why didn't Apogee make a 2-channel or Mastering edition of the converters/BigBen combo?

Beats me.

Jasper
Old 10th January 2006
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper
I've got mine clocked to a Rosetta 800 and the inputs and outputs on the 002 sound better when it's clocked that way.
Max....that's cool. I've heard what the Rosetta 800 does to the digi-001. And I know the differences between the ADAT-XT20, 001, 002r, & VM Pro(with A/D card). The VM Pro is the most open and clear.

Quote:
Here's a good question: Why didn't Apogee make a 2-channel or Mastering edition of the converters/BigBen combo?
good question! I remember a while back a few of us DUC'ers emailed Apogee "A FEW TIMES" asking for a cheaper 8ch AD/DA converter that conbined their 16ch AD unit & DA unit. Dont know if we succeed but now we have the Rosetta......it could have been cheaper thought.
Old 19th January 2006
  #24
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LightningBefore's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
Did you try? Does it work? Does it make a difference? Digi-002 clocked to Big Ben via Spdif?
This is what I do! I take two channels output to the in Analog Ins of the Rosetta 200 and then go optical out to the optical in of the Big Ben and SPDIF out to the SPDIF ins of the Digi002 and the return the outs of the 002 to the 200. . . and select in Core Audio 96k SPDIF and it. . . works!

Headache of 2's and 0's up there but unless Im crazy it works beautifully.
Now if I could only hook up my Rose200 to my central station as well as my monitors, agh it never ends!
Old 31st January 2006
  #25
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theblotted's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningBefore
Headache of 2's and 0's up there but unless Im crazy it works beautifully.
Now if I could only hook up my Rose200 to my central station as well as my monitors, agh it never ends!
i hope you're referring to hooking up Rosetta 200's analog outs to Central Station... cuz i would doubt that the DA of Rosetta would be any less than CS's..
Old 31st January 2006
  #26
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meteor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jasper
Yeah, but there are three components in play here -- A/D, clock and D/A. A Rosetta 200/Big Ben combination takes care of all three, and a lot cheaper than the AD16X. And anything made by Lavry.

Probably not cheaper than the Myteks, though. A Mytek A/D, D/A combo might be another cost effective solution. But you're still buying two items -- it's just tidier than the Rosetta/BigBen combo.

Here's a good question: Why didn't Apogee make a 2-channel or Mastering edition of the converters/BigBen combo?

Beats me.

Jasper
IF that's the issue. take a look at the UA 2192. It can be had for less than 2K (much less if you can find one used) and is generally brilliant on all fronts. It also has 4 Wordclock outs so you can easily clock the rest of your rig.

Regarding the Apogee Big Ben Quesion... I would not get hung up on the Big Ben issue. I've used the Big Ben to reclock the older AD-16 and DA-16 and it made a positive perceptable difference, but it is not greatly superior to the internal clocks of any of the current high end units commonly discussed around here. In fact, some people say the Big Ben can make some high end units sound slight less brilliant if you can imagine that. The Big Ben can be very effective when you have lots of things that need to get on the same page, but I would have a hard time placing it into a 002 rig. However, a 002 clocked off of any great AD converter through the SPDIF port will instantly sound noticably better as it's internal converters are not terrible but it's internal clock is. Plus you would have 2 truly great AD channels.

cheers,
Old 31st January 2006
  #27
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by meteor
IF that's the issue. take a look at the UA 2192.
However, a 002 clocked off of any great AD converter through the SPDIF port will instantly sound noticably better as it's internal converters are not terrible but it's internal clock is. Plus you would have 2 truly great AD channels.
Exactly what I'll be doing soon! 2192 and Digi 002 Rack Factory are on the way

I'm seriously thinking about getting an Aurora8 too. Any thoughts how to clock a 2192/Aurora8/002 setup? What cables do I have to get?
Old 31st January 2006
  #28
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Mike Jasper's Avatar
Your advice sounds solid, meteor.

I'm using an Apogee PSX100SE with a Big Ben right now in a Digi 001 rig, but (as I said before) it would have been cool if Apogee had made the equivalent of the PSX100SE again, which would be two channels of killer A/D, D/A and the Big Ben clock. But I guess they won't.

The Big Ben does make a difference, especially when I'm running the Kurzweil KSP8. Yeah, it is a bit odd to have two units for clock and conversion, but at least they're both 1U.

I'll have to check out that UA 2192.

Jasper
Old 2nd February 2006
  #29
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Is there a way around the bad internal clock on an 002? For all channels?
And as you say, the convertors are decent enough?

(I'm kinda new to this part of the chain, only ever used 'working' rigs)
Old 2nd February 2006
  #30
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meteor's Avatar
 

-doorknocker- "I'm seriously thinking about getting an Aurora8 too. Any thoughts how to clock a 2192/Aurora8/002 setup? What cables do I have to get?"

Assuming you are clocking the 002 off of the 2192 via SPDIF... Use 1 short HQ BNC connector from the 2192 to the WC input of the Aurora. Set the Aurora to External. You may have to get a 75 ohm BNC terminator for the Aurora but it might have a termination switch for the WC out.

-imlikeajungle- "Is there a way around the bad internal clock on an 002? For all channels? And as you say, the convertors are decent enough?"

The short answer to both is yes... There is a way around the internal clock of a 002 and the converters can be decent. If i am understanding your question let me start with this... externally clocking a 002 will affect every input and output of that interface - including the ones connected to the 4 preamps (those preamps will still sound a bit sterile but they will be going through improved conversion which helps).

However, since the 002 doesn't have a WordClock input the only way to externally clock it is through the SPDIF or ADAT digital ports. The only way to do that is with an outboard converter - and if you want externally clocking to make a significant difference that converter has to be pretty damn nice. The absolute bare minimum would be the Lucid 2 channel piece - the only problem with it is that it doesn't have a WC output so it couldn't also be the clock source for any other device besides the 002 - which is really a problem if you want to use the ADAT ports. I use a 002 as a writing and demo rig and went with a Mytek 2 channel AD and am clocking the 002 via RCA SPDIF and clocking an additional ADAT device off of the Mytek's WC output. If I also wanted an HQ DA i would have gone with something along the lines of the UA 2192, or perhaps a stand-alone Benchmark or Mytek DA. I don't mix on that rig so the AD was enough for me.

hope that helps...

cheers,
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