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anyone heard the new apogee 8 channel yet ?
Old 25th May 2003
  #1
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andre tchmil's Avatar
 

anyone heard the new apogee 8 channel yet ?

I'm stucked in a few months from here.
I need to upgrade my convertors.
Now I'm on 888's. I need better ones.
What to do?. going the HD96 interface route, just to have better convertors (no way I'm gonna record at 96 or 192K) or buying a pair of the new apogee 8 channel rosetta's?........ or something else.

Anyone heard them already?

Oh yes, I'm still clocked to my 888's too. So will HD interface give me a better clock source?

Haven't compared the price difference but sure it is important.
heh
Old 1st August 2003
  #2
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Dan Eriksson's Avatar
Yea,been intersting in those myself and now they seems to finally be available.
Anybody tried them yet?
Old 4th August 2003
  #3
I'm really curious about that too!
Old 14th August 2003
  #4
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I've heard the Rosetta 800 (got asked to beta test the final revision) - a solid improvement over the ad8000-se that I own. Highs and lows more extended, midrange clarity improved, and it is quiet! (No fan noise.) The metering is the biggest limitation, but in practice it's easy to get used to by relying more on your daw's meters. At half the price of the ad8000 I can do without the sexy meters. Also includes 8 ch of da. I'm definitely buying one.

After the comparison I was ready to sell my ad8000se. Decided to try the Big Ben. The improvement was bigger than the Rosetta, esp. in the midrange. More solid imaging, 3 dimensional, etc. I bought the Big Ben and will be keeping my 8000. The vso is way cool, although my RME card makes loud clicks each time I change the vso setting up. Adjusting vso down is silent. RME is solid once vso is set. Logic sends up amusing alerts - "sample rate 43722 detected" and so on. Fun to double-track slightly out of tune guitars (record second pass at 10cents flat).

Spending money on a clock was a bit of a leap. A "good sounding clock" seems to be a ridiculous statement, but there you are. A huge improvement for $1500.
Old 24th August 2003
  #5
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DigiGeek's Avatar
 

Rosetta 800 Listening Test

I finally heard the Rosetta 800 and it is everything Apogee is billing it to be. This unit is a nice improvement over my AD8000SE. the lows are tighter, the high end is more precise, and the midrange is outstanding. To me this unit sounded like what a $10K-15K converter ought to sound like. I can't believe the thing is only $3K!!!!

The metering on the 8000 will indeed be missed, but I imagine I will miss it less and less the more I hear this unit.

I don't care what your favorite converter is, be it older Apogees, Prism, Lavry, Pacific Microsonics. DCS, etc. You will be amazed at how great this box sounds at any price.

THANK YOU APOGEE!!!!!
Old 28th August 2003
  #6
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PRS1JAZZ's Avatar
 

I have also heard vast improvements with Apogees new design. I would grab one if I were you........especially because.....well

dfegad 888
Old 4th September 2003
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by logichead
I've heard the Rosetta 800 (got asked to beta test the final revision) - a solid improvement over the ad8000-se that I own. Highs and lows more extended, midrange clarity improved, and it is quiet! (No fan noise.) The metering is the biggest limitation, but in practice it's easy to get used to by relying more on your daw's meters. At half the price of the ad8000 I can do without the sexy meters. Also includes 8 ch of da. I'm definitely buying one.

After the comparison I was ready to sell my ad8000se. Decided to try the Big Ben. The improvement was bigger than the Rosetta, esp. in the midrange. More solid imaging, 3 dimensional, etc. I bought the Big Ben and will be keeping my 8000. The vso is way cool, although my RME card makes loud clicks each time I change the vso setting up. Adjusting vso down is silent. RME is solid once vso is set. Logic sends up amusing alerts - "sample rate 43722 detected" and so on. Fun to double-track slightly out of tune guitars (record second pass at 10cents flat).

Spending money on a clock was a bit of a leap. A "good sounding clock" seems to be a ridiculous statement, but there you are. A huge improvement for $1500.

I'm running the same thing you are. Logic, RME, Apogee AD-8000. Are you saying the AD-8000 with a better clock like Big Ben sounds better than the Rosetta 8?
Old 13th September 2003
  #8
Lowdbrent
Guest
Quote:
Originally posted by PRS1JAZZ
I have also heard vast improvements with Apogees new design. I would grab one if I were you........especially because.....well

dfegad 888
Don't wiz to much. The 888's have Apogee convertors in there.
Old 13th September 2003
  #9
Lowdbrent
Guest
Re: anyone heard the new apogee 8 channel yet ?

Quote:
Originally posted by andre tchmil
I'm stucked in a few months from here.
I need to upgrade my convertors.
Now I'm on 888's. I need better ones.
What to do?. going the HD96 interface route, just to have better convertors (no way I'm gonna record at 96 or 192K) or buying a pair of the new apogee 8 channel rosetta's?........ or something else.

Anyone heard them already?

Oh yes, I'm still clocked to my 888's too. So will HD interface give me a better clock source?

Haven't compared the price difference but sure it is important.
heh
If you are talking Digidesigns HD interfaces, you have to change your whole system to HD. It is completely different TDMII.

It will be interesting to see if Apogee releases a PT HD interface and a "legacy" PT interface.
Old 13th September 2003
  #10
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DigiGeek's Avatar
 

Re: Re: anyone heard the new apogee 8 channel yet ?

Quote:
[i]Originally posted by Lowdbrent
It will be interesting to see if Apogee releases a PT HD interface and a "legacy" PT interface.
I have heard that there will be a legacy PT card for the Rosetta 800. thumbsup

As for the comment that there are Apogee converters are in the 888... uh, wrong.
Old 13th September 2003
  #11
Lowdbrent
Guest
Not what I hear.

If you check out the thread on PSW, Nika addresses the wizzin match going on between Apogee and Digi now. This was recently aggrivated by statements by Bob Clearmountain, whose wife is the queen of Apogee. He has been slamming ProTools, and HD I/O's.

Nika confirms that the Apogee relationship has been strained ever since Digi went with other suppliers of convertors.

This was always my understanding, and maybe someone at Digi can disprove this if I am wrong. I am not the only one that thinks this. I know that some people at Apogee deny that they ever did anything with Digi.
Old 14th September 2003
  #12
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DigiGeek's Avatar
 

Know your history, bub

It is common knowledge that Apogee never made a converter for Digidesign. Apogee made a converter with a Pro Tools interface, actually they made a CARD with a PT interface that inserted into either a Trak2 or an AD8000. the 888 has nothing to do with Apogee

As for what Nika is claiming, I have not seen the thread. Please provide a link. I can guess that what Nika is talking about is the fact that Digidesign changed their interface protocol and did not give it to Apogee, which had many of us Apogee users up in arms as our converters could not connect directly to HD as they did nin the past with PT/24 and Mix. There is tons of info about this on the DUC if you want to search.

The truth is out there.
Old 14th September 2003
  #13
Lowdbrent
Guest
here you go. Proof from G. Massenberg and Nika.

This is the mid point of the thread where somebody points out Clearmountain is bashing Digidesign and Pro Tools on http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultim...3;t=005770;p=1

Bob Clearmountain says: "I don't think the sound quality in DAWs is as good as an analogue desk," insists Clearmountain. "It might not be true of the more high-end digital systems like the new SSL or Euphonix desks, but Pro Tools is still not very high quality. The converters in the new HD systems are a little bit better, but the mix buss is still fixed-point. As soon as you do any processing in Pro Tools you're degrading the signal and I hear that. [...]"

George Massenberg states, and I quote:
I have deep and abiding respect for Bob, and wouldn't think of challenging what he thinks he hears. But Bob's wife is in the converter business, and, perhaps, she still has a bad taste in her mouth from being forced out of the Digi market. One shouldn't overestimate how much influence our wives wield, and I think we have to take that into account here.

What he says about processing in PT with all of those horrendously ****ty plugs is probably correct, and we should all stop the nonsense immediately.

But on the subject of fixed vs floating point, Bob is simply incorrect. Please see Andy Moorer's paper on fixed vs floating point.

George


Then, Nika states:
http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=8014

Nika States: "...As for the Clearmountain thing, though, it might be worth some further info; Bob Clearmountain is the current spouse of Betty, the owner of Apogee. Apogee made A/D converters for Digidesign's Protools system until two years ago when Digidesign abruptly cut them off. What ensued was a bitter rivalry and I have heard many stories about the back room discussions between Bob/Betty and Digidesign's elites.

It can be of no surprise that Bob Clearmountain complains about any random aspect of Protools that he can. Apogee has since created a relationship with Steinberg and Nuendo, who tout their floating point system.

Their marketing of it, however, is dubious and misguided, as is Clearmountain's claims about fixed point math. In the end I think Bob may be well above his head on that conversation. If I had the time I could go in depth on the stances from each approach and explain where, and in what capacities floating point math is beneficial, and you would realize that it has nothing to do with what Nuendo claims. I can also do the same about fixed point math and you'll see that it has nothing to do with Bob's complaints. For what it's worth, Apogee converters use fixed point processors in their converters."

Nika.


George Massenburg
Old 14th September 2003
  #14
Lowdbrent
Guest
Re: Know your history.

Quote:
Originally posted by DigiGeek

As for what Nika is claiming, I have not seen the thread. Please provide a link. I can guess that what Nika is talking about is the fact that Digidesign changed their interface protocol...
Nope. See other post.

I think that one of the largest US Apogee and Digi dealers reps would have it right, along with G Massenberg.

Just because you do not know about something doesn't mean that it isn't so.
Old 14th September 2003
  #15
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DigiGeek's Avatar
 

Thanks for the link LowB. Actually, I am certain that I am right on this. What Nika is talking about is the Apogee HD connection or lack thereof.

Where you may be getting confused is when Nika says Apogee converters used fixed point math?

I believe all converters use fixed point math, at least that I am aware of (and why would need or want to use an FPU processor for a converter anyway, unless you had DSP happening in the box).

While I will give you that Nika may know more about Apogee's history than I do, I don't see anywhere that he makes mention of Apogee converters in Digidesign products.

As for the fixed vs floating arguement (sorry i know this is off topic), I do not know if that is the real reason Bob Clearmountain heard what he did, but I myself have noticed better results on native systems using floating point processing than I have with Pro Tools as well (the caveat here is that any listening I have done comparing mixing between the the two is vs. my mix system and not HD). Now whether that is because of floating vs. fixed I cannot say. I will do some research on it before commenting further.
Old 14th September 2003
  #16
Lowdbrent
Guest
It is the DAW software that uses fixed or floating point math. That was the context of the conversation that spawned this. PT use Fixed, Nuendo uses Floating.

No, Nika is referring to convertors themselves, so was George M.
Old 14th September 2003
  #17
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heinz's Avatar
 

I've had the Rosetta 800 for about a week and I am really liking the sound of it, better than the Trak2 it replaced.
Old 16th September 2003
  #18
Max
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For the record, Apogee has never manufactured or designed a converter for Digidesign.

Hope this clears things up.
Old 21st September 2003
  #19
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To Fumbling on E, sorry I didn't check back on this thread earlier, but what I should have made clear is that the Big Ben made my 8000se sound very, very close to the Rosetta 800. The confusing factor is that when my 8000 was clocked to the Rosetta, the 8000 sounded better than when it was it's own master. The Big Ben is an even better clock, and it made an even bigger difference for the 8000, enough that I was no longer in a panic about replacing the 8000. Worth a try before buying new converters.

BTW, the se designation is (I believe) an improvement in the analog circuitry only. My stock 8000 was upgraded to an se and it sounded better after the upgrade - a little more character and *weight*.

Also, a few of the comments about Bob Clearmountain's DAW mix-bus quotes (which I saw in sos) appear to have been misunderstood. I thought he was referring to mixing inside a DAW - regardless of which converters were used to record the audio; when all of the audio files in a song are mixed inside the DAW, the resulting mix doesn't sound as good as a mix coming from multiple DAW outputs into a console. This is a limitation of DAW's in general, and is the reason so many (me included) have gone to analog summing via a Dangerous 2Bus or a Manley 16x2, and why so many top mixers still use big desks.

The point is that Bob's relationship with Apogee has nothing to do with his complaints about DAW mixing - he was explaining why he still uses his SSL console.

Finally, there is little question that Digi wanted to give a price advantage to its own i/o boxes. To use converters other than Digi on an HD system means you have to buy the Dig 192 digital i/o, also known as the $2k digital dongle, or use the legacy port on the 192 i/o and be limited to 48k. Previous Digi systems allowed direct connection of external converters to the Digi cards - and lots of people upgraded their Mix systems with Apogee 8000's rather than buy 888's. For the HD system, direct connection was *severed*.

....H
Old 22nd September 2003
  #20
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cebolao's Avatar
 

question to apogee guy


it has been written in this thread that the BIG BEN masterclock device gives a big improvement in overall audio quality of the whole digital studio. my question is if the rosetta 800 has the same quality clock which can serve as masterclock for the whole system as well as the big ben?

thanx
Old 22nd September 2003
  #21
Max
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Re: question to apogee guy

Quote:
Originally posted by cebolao

it has been written in this thread that the BIG BEN masterclock device gives a big improvement in overall audio quality of the whole digital studio. my question is if the rosetta 800 has the same quality clock which can serve as masterclock for the whole system as well as the big ben?
thanx
The Rosetta 800 uses Apogee's Intelliclock, which is an analog PLL (also found in the AD-16 and DA-16 converters). While the Intelliclock is a great clock with very good jitter performance, it does not compare to the performance of the new all digital C777 clock found in Big Ben.

In comparing the Rosetta 800's Intelliclock to Big Ben's C777, we have found the C777 clock used in Big Ben performs approximately 10Xs better than the clock in the Rosetta 800.

Another advantage the Big Ben's C777 has over most clocks is that the statistical distribution of the C777’s minimal jitter error is a Gaussian or "bell" shaped distribution (hence the name, Big Ben). We found that in looking at this spec on other clocking devices on the market, very few of them exhibited the deterministic, Gaussian distribution that is present in the C777. It is well known that Jitter with this characteristic is much less audible than any other sort of distribution. This in combination with it's exceptionally low jitter performance is why Big Ben makes such a noticeable audible improvement when connected to your DAW.

It is important to keep in mind that clocking is only one piece of the conversion puzzle. Analog design, including power supply performance and filtering play just as important a role in the overall sound quality of your converters.

So while a great converter coupled with Big Ben may be the ultimate solution, just upgrading your conversion to something like the Rosetta 800 may make a bigger impact than Big Ben alone would.
Old 23rd September 2003
  #22
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heinz's Avatar
 

Re: Re: question to apogee guy

Quote:
Originally posted by Max
The Rosetta 800 uses Apogee's Intelliclock, which is an analog PLL (also found in the AD-16 and DA-16 converters).
Quick question, is the same PLL clock also used in the Trak2?
Old 23rd September 2003
  #23
Max
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Re: Re: Re: question to apogee guy

Quote:
Originally posted by heinz
Quick question, is the same PLL clock also used in the Trak2?
The Trak2 PLL is very similar to the Intelliclock design; the main difference is that the Intelliclock uses a second PLL to help attenuate incoming jitter.

Intelliclock relates to the converter’s unique "intelligent" two-stage re-clocking system for D/A conversion. Apogee converters have traditionally excelled at removing jitter from the incoming clock signal, but for extremely jittery input sources, in which clocking information and data need to line up, more control is needed. The Intelliclock solves this problem by utilizing two clocks. A fast-responding 'read' clock, with a wide locking range, fills a dedicated FIFO buffer, while an ultra-low-jitter 'write' clock writes the data out of the buffer, and is used to clock the converters.
Old 23rd September 2003
  #24
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write on! (hee hee) hey man thanks for that info, so if I'm reading that right, the Rosetta 800 has a slightly better clock than Trak2.

...but Big Ben is 10x better... hmmmm (gearslut mode activated)...
Old 23rd September 2003
  #25
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cebolao's Avatar
 

so we need both...
Old 23rd September 2003
  #26
When the Rosetta line was introduced a few years ago, the general consensus was that is was a 'low cost' line of Apogee products. Is that the true or was that simply a misconception? It appears that all the new stuff that sounds really good (I've not heard any of it, but people sure seem to like it) is labeled as 'Rosetta"...

Am I just easily confused or what?
Old 23rd September 2003
  #27
Max
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brad Blackwood
When the Rosetta line was introduced a few years ago, the general consensus was that is was a 'low cost' line of Apogee products. Is that the true or was that simply a misconception? It appears that all the new stuff that sounds really good (I've not heard any of it, but people sure seem to like it) is labeled as 'Rosetta"...

Am I just easily confused or what?
Hi Brad,

When the Rosetta A/D was introduced, it was comparable in quality to the PSX-100, our best converter at the time. The Rosetta A/D has a limited feature set (two channels of A/D, no D/A, metering, expansion etc.), allowing for a lower price point than the full-featured PSX-100, which has probably led to the misconception you referred to.

The new Rosetta 800 was designed to break through the cost vs. quality barrier on a whole new level. In the past, purchasing a world-class, eight-channel converter would have cost two to three times as much as the Rosetta 800.

There are still some feature set limitations (metering, limited calibration and channel routing) which is why the unit received the "Rosetta" moniker. What has never been compromised in the Rosetta series is quality, and we worked very hard to insure that the Rosetta 800 does not disappoint in this regard.
Old 23rd September 2003
  #28
Max, thanks for the info. That clears everything up for me...

Any chance you guys will do a new, comprehensive stereo ADC and/or DAC? How about a new AD8000? I never cared for the PSX100, but I know you guys build good stuff...
Old 23rd September 2003
  #29
Max
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While I cannot comment on unannounced products, I can tell you that we are working very hard on some great and innovative new stuff to complement what has already come out this year.

2003 has been a great year for Apogee. 2004 is looking even better.

Stay tuned....
Old 23rd September 2003
  #30
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cebolao's Avatar
 

another question to max

the big ben is a masterclock for the whole studio. cool. so i have to choose the desired samplerate on it's front panel, right? sometimes i have to switch it quite often, between 48 and 44.1 kHz for example loading one session after another again and again.

the problem is that all my interfaces, and big ben (one day...) are in the machine room. so either i have to run there and back again and again , or... contol big ben remotely?

is it possible? did you think about it? maybe the firewire port would help? a simple program for mac/xp only for switching the samplerate...
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