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China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts Condenser Microphones
Old 29th November 2009
  #151
Gear Guru
Selective Brotherhood

I am sure the people you met were lovely. The photos are too. However, there are plenty of photos from Tibet which I am sure would provide a stark contrast. Or perhaps from last year in Burma, a regime which only exists due to Chinese Veto. ( I know, US- Israel, but this is not a competition) For that matter how about the Human Rights abuses in China itself? What about the largest hydroelectric project on the planet, with millions of people forcibly moved?
Legally, copying a U47 may not be wrong. However, that company provides support for ALL of its products. All of them, over the best part of a century. Who pays for that?
I don't believe at all in the impossibility of keeping our products mostly clean of totalitarian regimes. Look at Audix. Those high end condensers are badged German.
SoundEluxe buy capsules from the same guy. Since this thread is dangerously close to a long advert, let's introduce another counterbalance. Let me introduce the source of those Audix and SoundEluxe caps.
MBHO Designed and hand made in Germany. Look a little like Schoeps, but I believe Dr. Haun worked there, so perhaps he designed them too.
They are reasonably priced. Sonically they are the best modern mics I have tested. Check this 47 ish but much better mic http://www.mbho.de/pdf/mbnm608.pdf
Or this 84 beating capsule. http://www.mbho.de/pdf/ka200n_ka400n.pdf
Close to perfection is available, affordable, and it doesn't have to cost US/EU jobs while supporting a brutal totalitarian regime.
DD
Old 29th November 2009
  #152
Lives for gear
 
Marik's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post

MBHO Designed and hand made in Germany. Look a little like Schoeps, but I believe Dr. Haun worked there, so perhaps he designed them too.
They are reasonably priced. Sonically they are the best modern mics I have tested. Check this 47 ish but much better mic http://www.mbho.de/pdf/mbnm608.pdf
Or this 84 beating capsule. http://www.mbho.de/pdf/ka200n_ka400n.pdf
Close to perfection is available, affordable, and it doesn't have to cost US/EU jobs while supporting a brutal totalitarian regime.
DD
Unlike mindless copying, indeed, folks at MBHO know exactly what they are doing. I tested both of those capsules and can attest, indeed, they are superb.

Best, M
Old 29th November 2009
  #153
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
The fact that some of these designs may be 'legally' in the public domain is yet another red herring. Splitting hairs. It is morally theft and you know it.
Nope. If it's in the public domain it isn't theft. Saying it's still a theft morally isn't really an argument. Not saying there isn't a lot of copying going on (that is wrong) but if it's augmenting certain designs known to be in the public domain we shouldn't have a problem with that.

A bit OT: Copyright is extended everytime Disney gets near the end of it's power. Is that what we want?

Thank god the patent law isn't getting the same.

k
Old 29th November 2009
  #154
Lives for gear
 
tapehiss's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by low_z View Post
Care to divulge?
disinterested on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

it's a very ambient style of music, mostly intsrumental....
Old 29th November 2009
  #155
Lives for gear
 
tapehiss's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I am sure the people you met were lovely. The photos are too. However, there are plenty of photos from Tibet which I am sure would provide a stark contrast. Or perhaps from last year in Burma, a regime which only exists due to Chinese Veto. ( I know, US- Israel, but this is not a competition) For that matter how about the Human Rights abuses in China itself? What about the largest hydroelectric project on the planet, with millions of people forcibly moved?
Legally, copying a U47 may not be wrong. However, that company provides support for ALL of its products. All of them, over the best part of a century. Who pays for that?
I don't believe at all in the impossibility of keeping our products mostly clean of totalitarian regimes. Look at Audix. Those high end condensers are badged German.
SoundEluxe buy capsules from the same guy. Since this thread is dangerously close to a long advert, let's introduce another counterbalance. Let me introduce the source of those Audix and SoundEluxe caps.
MBHO Designed and hand made in Germany. Look a little like Schoeps, but I believe Dr. Haun worked there, so perhaps he designed them too.
They are reasonably priced. Sonically they are the best modern mics I have tested. Check this 47 ish but much better mic http://www.mbho.de/pdf/mbnm608.pdf
Or this 84 beating capsule. http://www.mbho.de/pdf/ka200n_ka400n.pdf
Close to perfection is available, affordable, and it doesn't have to cost US/EU jobs while supporting a brutal totalitarian regime.
DD
yeah that tibet thing, isnt that similar to the english ruling the irish????????? aside the point...... dandan, i think we need not discuss oppression........ those are not welcome territories on gearslutz. ( you can soapbox elsewhere)




so nice job dandan in taking michael's thread to discuss somebody else's capsules, as well as your qualms with china.
.
and i just can't see marik's comments as anything more than a man trying to deter people from michael's work. (however relevant your words are)
Old 29th November 2009
  #156
Gear Guru
Advertising

Tapehiss, the thread should probably have gone into the Good News forum. However, it is so close to blatant advertising that the mods may have culled it. I have quite deliberately introduced MBHO, Brauner, and others here, to illustrate my points, and to provide a little advertising balance.
Not sure what your point here is but the UK is still in Ireland, and still has claims on Rockall, with the surrounding Oil and Fishing rights. We are working on that.
I don't think it is right to ignore oppression, particularly as it is current and involves massive populations. Just because we want some cheap, half decent sounding mics, doesn't mean we need to leave our commonsense and all vestiges of morality outside the door.
It is hardly appropriate for you to declare what sort of discussion is or is not welcome here on GearSlutz. I see some comical similarities with Bejing in such comments.

DD
Old 29th November 2009
  #157
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
yeah that tibet thing, isnt that similar to the english ruling the irish?????????
Or the Israeli's forcefully occupying Palestine...

Or the U.S. forcefully occupying Iraq...
and Panama
and the U.S. Virgin Islands
and Hawaii
well...and let's not forget how we forcefully occupied North America, spreading out across the continent genociding Native American tribes as we "settled" claim-staker's and land-grabber's. Anybody here proud of that one?
Old 29th November 2009
  #158
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Don't worry, all those "forceful occupations" are forceful at the street level, but, back in the board rooms, the "apparent"enemy is paying us to stay, they don't want us to leave ever, because if we do, the one nation we aren't occupying will destroy them immediately.
How many terrorist deaths in Palestine this year??
Old 29th November 2009
  #159
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Just because we want some cheap, half decent sounding mics, doesn't mean we need to leave our commonsense and all vestiges of morality outside the door.


DD
Shouldn't you at least hear the mics before you make a decision about them??

I've never been to Ireland before, I'm not going to formulate opinions about a place I've never visited. Would be rather ignorant of me right??

Peace
Illumination
Old 29th November 2009
  #160
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Please take all the world strife politics to the Moan Zone. Have a freak'n dust up over there. I care about injustice and people's rights as much as the next guy. Almost everybody alive could have a bitch with someone else over past wrongs. My people were forcibly removed from Acadia between 1755 and 1763 and dispersed throughout the American colonies. But I'm not going to go on about that here.

Please, take it out of this thread. I'm trying to maintain a spirited but respectful debate about mic manufacturing in China and my personal experiences there so far.
Old 29th November 2009
  #161
Lives for gear
 
Marik's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
and i just can't see marik's comments as anything more than a man trying to deter people from michael's work. (however relevant your words are)
Tapehiss,

Unless I am missing something, this thread is not about Michael's work, but about Michael's trip to China. Inevitably, (esp. in the present economical situation) such topic stirs a lot of controversy, such as human rights, cheap labor, copyright issues, stealing information and entire products, aspects of outsourcing, manufacturing and how it affects political situation and economy, etc. etc. etc.

If you paid attention, I actually did not participate in any political discussion, but just expressed my views and MY approach to manufacturing and suggested that in the current economical situation, pricewise it is VERY possible to make a very competitive products here in USA. My support of the reference to MBHO capsules (even though they are made in EU) were just a continuation of that discussion to support that idea.

It is no secret I with Michael have very different views on many things, such for example, as use of K47 (personally, I believe a generic replacement of K67/87 style capsule with K47 he proposes is rather harmful for music industry and greatly reduces diversity of tools for recording); use of 2SK170, phase integrity, and many other technical and otherwise issues. If I were to deter his work I'd rather start technical debates.

As for China, to make my position more clear, I deeply sympathize Asian culture and people. Not many folks here know that I am actually also a concert pianist and had a big studio of piano students. Out of 15 kids 9 went to win local and state piano competitions. 7 of them were Chinese, 1 Korean, and one Finnish boy.
In this thread Michael raised his voice against generalization. I however, will allow myself to actually go to say that my Asian students (and actually European ones) in general had much better attitude, better discipline, tend to stay more focused, be less lazy, etc., than American ones.

I've never been to China or Asia and can only envy of Michael's trip . On the other hand, maybe I am lucky, because when I go there I will have chance to experience and enjoy the country and its people for the first time .

Best, M
Old 29th November 2009
  #162
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Marik - just a warm thanks to you in appreciation of the fact that we've gotten to place were we accept each others different worldviews and technical ideas with getting into a tussle over them.
Old 29th November 2009
  #163
Gear Guru
Clear and Present

Michael, I suggest that it is your post that should have been directed elsewhere. Perhaps it should have been a paid advert?
China's abuses are currently happening, not some history.
I believe my contributions are completely relevant now. Unemployment is rife. A lot of it is due to outsourcing. I firmly believe it is unsustainable and destructive to outsource to such unimaginable distances, to a totally different culture, with artificial pricing. Ultimately the real interest in China here is that it is a cheap source of a cheap product. Let's not try to disguise that with talk of history or 'worldviews'.
DD
Old 29th November 2009
  #164
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marik View Post
Tapehiss,

Unless I am missing something, this thread is not about Michael's work, but about Michael's trip to China. Inevitably, (esp. in the present economical situation) such topic stirs a lot of controversy, such as human rights, cheap labor, copyright issues, stealing information and entire products, aspects of manufacturing and how it affects political situation and economy, etc. etc. etc.

If you paid attention, I actually did not participate in any political discussion, but just expressed my views and MY approach to manufacturing and suggested that in the current economical situation, pricewise it is VERY possible to make a very competitive products here in USA. My support of the reference to MBHO capsules (even though they are made in EU) were just a continuation of that discussion to support that idea.

It is no secret I with Michael have very different views on many things, for example, such as use of K47 (personally, I believe a generic replacement of K67/87 style capsule with K47 he proposes is rather harmful for music industry and greatly reduces diversity of tools for recording); use of 2SK170, phase integrity, and many other technical and otherwise issues. If I were to deter his work I'd rather start technical debates.

As for China, to make my position more clear, I deeply sympathize Asian culture and people. Not many folks here know that I am actually also a concert pianist and had a big studio of piano students. Out of 15 kids 9 went to win local and state piano competitions. 7 of them were Chinese, 1 Korean, and one Finnish boy.
In this thread Michael raised his voice against generalization. I however, will allow myself to actually go to say that my Asian students (and actually European ones) in general had much better attitude, better discipline, tend to stay more focused, be less lazy, etc., than American ones.

I've never been to China or Asia and can only envy of Michael's trip . On the other hand, maybe I am lucky, because when I go there I will have chance to experience and enjoy the country and its people for the first time .

Best, M
Marik, all things aside, are you offering LDC capsules??

One of my favorite signs at a place my band performs at, called the Empire Brewing Company, has a prominently placed sign that says "Buy Local." As long as that's possible, I tend to do exactly that.

As a consumer, if I can afford a capsule, then thats where my money is spent.


I've heard lots of praises about your ribbon mics, motors, transformers. You're here in the states. At JJ Audio Mics, we're working on getting USA made transformers on the list of available parts. USA made capsules would be a nice addition.

PM me.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

Peace
Illumination
Old 29th November 2009
  #165
Lives for gear
 
Marik's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post
Marik, all things aside, are you offering LDC capsules??

One of my favorite signs at a place my band performs at, called the Empire Brewing Company, has a prominently placed sign that says "Buy Local." As long as that's possible, I tend to do exactly that.

As a consumer, if I can afford a capsule, then thats where my money is spent.


I've heard lots of praises about your ribbon mics, motors, transformers. You're here in the states. At JJ Audio Mics, we're working on getting USA made transformers on the list of available parts. USA made capsules would be a nice addition.

PM me.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

Peace
Illumination
I actually spent quite a bit of R&D for developing both, SD and LD capsules of my own design. Again, they are not "inspired", not copies, do not have those funny C12/K47/87 designations, but of my original design, with some unique solutions.

Presently, I was not going to start manufacturing condenser microphones, or capsules, but on the other hand, if there is a market for LD capsules and there is enough demand to make them in quantities, I would be more than happy to discuss it and put my ideas into production.

So let's talk if you are interested.

Best, M
Old 29th November 2009
  #166
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
In order to control and indeed feed it's vast population. China (apologies to those sensitive to generalisation, but that is what we call the country) uses force.
Russia uses force as well and we're still buying Oktavas, come think of it, USA uses force and we're still...

Again, not much of an argument.

k
Old 29th November 2009
  #167
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marik View Post
I actually spent quite a bit of R&D for developing both, SD and LD capsules of my own design. Again, they are not "inspired", not copies, do not have those funny C12/K47/87 designations, but of my original design, with some unique solutions.

Presently, I was not going to start manufacturing condenser microphones, or capsules, but on the other hand, if there is a market for LD capsules and there is enough demand to make them in quantities, I would be more than happy to discuss it and put my ideas into production.

So let's talk if you are interested.

Best, M
PM'd you.

Thanks
Peace
Illumination
Old 29th November 2009
  #168
Gear Maniac
 
low_z's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
disinterested on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

it's a very ambient style of music, mostly intsrumental....
Cool, I will check it out when I get home to a computer with speakers!

Michael, did you have a chance to demo/ check out the ortf mic in the 1st set of pics? Do you feel it is a design worth improving upon?
I would totally buy a Joly ortf/nos/xy stereo mic for remote ensemble recording!

Also, (a little ot)when do you see your first mics "hitting the shelves?"
Old 29th November 2009
  #169
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tapehiss's Avatar
i have been all over the world (ireland, euro, asia) and after those trips i could no longer judge a country based on the simple things dandan has used to make assumptions about china.........
and by a simple history lesson, you realize that china is not different than the rest of the world.....
just at a different place in time...............

countries don't become world powers by fair trade and nice work environments..........america didn't, germany didn't, england didn't(you should know this dandan) japan didn't, russia didn't, and china's isn't........

their just later on the totem pole, but eventually they will be up there.



all and all, i think what michaels doing is great. and i can't wait to seewhat he is releasing in 2010.

this thread has gone full circle and i don't like it anymore......

(marik, sorry for misunderstanding your post...... look foward to your future products as well, are these a long way from production and sale?)
Old 29th November 2009
  #170
Gear Guru
Nonsense

I have no interest whatsoever in judging any country. My point is being misread over and over. Perhaps you colonial experiments have lost understanding of the source code. :-)
I am criticising a practice which has become endemic.
To bore you into submission to my world view, the way of the Dan:-
Outsourcing is unsustainable and destructive. It causes an unequal playing field. It causes unemployment. Rembember Detroit, Motor City?
My thesis has nothing to do with China or any individual country. If it had I would single out Burma instead.
It takes several to tango. The practice which I object to is buyer driven which is why I am posting here, to buyers.
By the way, Ireland, despite it's current basket case economy, was rated the richest country in the world a couple of years ago. LOL! Also for the size of the resident population, say 5M, we are quite a mini superpower. We have 60M passports extant. If it weren't for an illegal hand ball, we beat France in football last week, and we just beat South Africa in Rugby.
We didn't have to f..k with anyone to achieve this status.

To lighten this up a little. Recently Russia has become extremely annoyed by China.
Apparently Russia sold them some hardware. Big stuff, you know, Submarines, and.....an Aircraft Carrier. A very big one, a floating City pulsating with all sorts of life taking technology. The Chinese have copied it exactly. No effort whatsoever to change any aspect of it's appearance, and exact clone. LOL!
DD
Old 30th November 2009
  #171
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tapehiss's Avatar
yeah, everyone claims to be the richest country at one point...

however, i'm pretty sure norway holds the current title....

travel through europe and you'll see that it is the most expensive place to be, despite their not having much of a niche is the music scene...

but yes, i like that you're taking this thread to a lighter note...

that is where we should be headed.

ok, i've posted way too much in this thread and i'm done!!!!!!!!!!!!

ps. by the way, the reason i'm so involved with this thread is because of my heritage, which is exactly 50% norwegian, 30% filipino, 15% chinese, and 5% spanish..... but born and raised in the states.
having my blood line spread across the world keeps me involved
Old 30th November 2009
  #172
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Our destiny is tied to China's, not Russia's. Good job spotting that though, it's kinda obvious.
How nice it is to end well, even if you don't start well.
Nothing is what it seems.
Maybe Chinese/American mics are great.
Chinese American people are.
I can't wait till the fruit is ready, I just need one more mic...or two.
Old 30th November 2009
  #173
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_z View Post
...Michael, did you have a chance to demo/ check out the ortf mic in the 1st set of pics? Do you feel it is a design worth improving upon?
I would totally buy a Joly ortf/nos/xy stereo mic for remote ensemble recording!

Also, (a little ot)when do you see your first mics "hitting the shelves?"
It wasn't set up for a live demo at the time. I just sent an email to my contact at Superlux asking for specs etc. I didn't get a good look at so I can't comment at this point. Though it is a true, externally polarized condenser rather than an electret and has a 3dB lift at 10kHz - not too bright.
Attached Thumbnails
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-ortf.jpg  
Old 30th November 2009
  #174
Gear Guru
Positive

Yup, lighter, and funnier, is probably always better. Ireland rich seems pretty funny right now. Back to the topic. Seems like a couple of main contributors here are passionate about mics etc. Les Paul started and continued in his garage. Shure? EV? Way to go perhaps?
DD
Old 30th November 2009
  #175
Gear Maniac
 
low_z's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
disinterested on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

it's a very ambient style of music, mostly intsrumental....
Very cool stuff tapehiss thumbsup Actually more "headphone music" than monitor music IMO. Perfect for a little stony MDR7506 action

Michael, let us know when you get more data/experience with the mic, and thanks again for posting about the trip.
Old 30th November 2009
  #176
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tapehiss's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by low_z View Post
Very cool stuff tapehiss thumbsup Actually more "headphone music" than monitor music IMO. Perfect for a little stony MDR7506 action
thanks man, yeah it deffinately is headphone stuff, kinda dreamy....
im glad you like it!!!!!!!

i participated in the recording, and played two shows live with the group..... played some awesome soundscape gigs in sanfran with this awesome celloist for imogine heap,, but that was a couple summers ago....
my friend and i got in a little drunk driving accident while camping in the mountains of northern california near mt. shasta.... and we had to drive her crooked wheeled ford focus all the way back to seattle.... several cars stopped us on the way saying that our wheel was going to fall off, but we made it back.....
Old 30th November 2009
  #177
Gear Maniac
 
low_z's Avatar
 

Right on. If you ever play any cool shows like that again in sanfran, let me know. My buddy who play upright lives up there and is always down to check out new stuff.

Good Samaritan: "Hey, did you guys know..."

Slightly out of focus gang: "yeah, we know, thanks"

GS "you want us to call a tow truck or..."

SOOFG "naw it's cool"

GS "you sure?"
...
Old 30th November 2009
  #178
Michael,
Thanks a lot for sharing your pictures and stories about interacting with the factory workers and management who will be making your new line of microphones. I for one appreciate the detailed description, and your choice to work with a factory that, at least from your description, appears to be one of the more "progressive" Chinese factories that offer higher wages, better benefits, use QC processes, and therefore produce higher quality products.

Although there are horrific stories about Chinese factories, one only has to take a trip to the many legal and illegal sweatshops in San Francisco and LA that make the US garment industry thrive. I've been inside some of these (I used to have a studio right next door to one of them) - they are worse that prison work camps, and rival anything I've ever heard about Chinese factories. If that isn't enough for you, check out the FTZ (free trade zones) located in many of the Caribbean islands but nominally "American" in provenance, known for their total lack of labor laws and horrific treatment of workers. In other words, there are better and worse factory conditions around the world - one country doesn't have a particular monopoly on the phenomenon. With this far more depressing alternative in mind, I'm very glad to see that some American business owners are considering worker quality of life at the onset of business relationships.

would love to see more pictures if you have them!
Old 30th November 2009
  #179
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oudplayer View Post
...would love to see more pictures if you have them!
Sure. Here's some from a series on Urhus that I shot. In addition to gear, Pro Light + Sound EXPO also showcases musical instruments in a separate and huge pavilion. One of the fascinating aspects of this show was the vertical integration - it is possible to see retail-ready instruments (or gear), materials for instruments like the snake skin below (or components for microphones on the gear side) and both end-users like this father and son inspecting urhus, distributor / buyers and retail buyers.
Attached Thumbnails
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-uru1.jpg   China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-uru2.jpg   China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-uru3.jpg   China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-uru4.jpg  
Old 30th November 2009
  #180
Gear Addict
 
Saxon-of-a-son's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Gentlemen, thank for your opinions.

But I object to the generalizations you use - "China does ...", the "Chinese do...". I'm vehemently opposed to any sort of national or ethnic generalization, I'll call it out when I see it, and will challenge you to cite specific instances where a particular company or individual has acted in ways you describe. I'm not turning a blind eye to the lax man-on-the-street regard for intellectual property rights that occurs when they sell CDs or DVD on the sidewalk but will not let your unsubtaniated generalizations stand unchallenged.

As our long human history has shown, and present conditions still show, nationalistic or ethic scape-goating coupled with an "us vs. them" dichotomy is a very slippery slope that leads downward to the hell of poor human relations rather than upward towards relationships that reflect our better, or ascendant selves.
I don't have a problem with the Chinese people, whom I think are cool and even sweet. My problem is with the authoritarian Chinese government for a whole host of reasons. Decades of Communism have created a culture of widespread corruption and cheating, not limited to QC. It was the way to survive under Mao, of course. I am hopeful that the younger generation of Chinese with get rock-n-roll and most of these problems will evaporate. In the meantime, the US government should stop being such wussies and place the same tarrifs on Chinese products that they have on ours. Fair is fair. And, in the meantime, I am not buying Chinese-made products, if i can help it. I'd rather save up and buy from a small U.S. manufacturer.
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