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China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts Condenser Microphones
Old 29th November 2009
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomer1 View Post
Germany was a step ahead of the alies in just about everything exept for the Atomic bomb.
Rocket technology,Tank design,Aircraft design,analog computers and just about anything military related (which of course later turned civil).
Well thats just my whole angle on this.

When Neumann's patent, among others, expired. Using the technology that is available to ALL citizens of the world at that point, can't morally or technically count as a theft or thievery if thats the word we're looking for.

Technically speaking, you can't really make a real U47 anymore. Everything else owes its lineage back to the real deal for certain but we can't truly replicate the whole shebang.

As far as if someone is owed money, well so far the law says no. The public domain thing has been used by many other folks in manufacturing fields and even in music creation, (for example, sampling) and once its in the public domain its fair game.

Again I still want to know about how American mic manufacturers, are financially hurt by German K47s being made in China. For example, can we find ourselves an American mic in Guitar Center right now?

Its rather odd indeed though that despite there being all these machine shops on ebay and other places who will work for cheap, that nobody is offering US made microphone capsules.

You can definitely buy transformers from Jensen, Cinemag and Edcor.

Why no capsules??

Hmmm...

Peace
Illumination
Old 29th November 2009
  #122
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
I intend to deliver what my market is telling me they want to buy - original, signature-branded mics, sold with personal attention to each client, that are consistent with the value folks have come to expect from my aftermarket mods.
True to that, that's what it comes down to - plain and simple. thumbsup
Old 29th November 2009
  #123
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post

Why no capsules??

Hmmm...

Peace
Illumination
their are U.S.A. made capsules available, and they are very very good capsules.
Old 29th November 2009
  #124
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Sure. Start with a Josephson capsule and make somthing lika a Manley Gold Reference for $7200. Or perhaps do what Gene Lawson does - make everything yourself and end up with something like an L47 for $2000.

That is not the value proposition I am known for.
Old 29th November 2009
  #125
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Sure. Start with a Josephson capsule and make somthing lika a Manley Gold Reference for $7200. Or perhaps do what Gene Lawson does - make everything yourself and end up with something like an L47 for $2000.

That is not the value proposition I am known for.
Gene Lawson's mic is priced as it is because he dose not go through a distributor and then a final retail outlet. if his mic were sold in the same manner as other high end mics, they would be far from the $2000.00 range.
Old 29th November 2009
  #126
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while it would be nice to have those amazing american made mics...

many (modern) engineers would not be where they are today if those were the only mics available when they begin to experiment...


all those great engineers who started in a bedroom of their parents house with a total of $800.00 to create their whole studio................

for all those who don't like that michael is creating mics in a cost effective manner, your completely ignoring all those who aren't financially privilaged.

or maybe you're not, and you feel that budget products are infringing on your expensive products.........
well, if they are as good as you say they are, no worries....
and if they are as good as michael claims, then i can see why you all are making such a big deal, because you spent way more than you had too!!!!!


anyway, just remember that we all start somewhere, and the majority don't start with 3k to spend on their first mic.

the art of recording would not limit it's participants by keeping the price of admission beyond a reasonal budget,
its wonderful that quality can be made for cheaper these days......and don't forget that this is for an art......

a medium for artists that michael is making available for more to share.

it is a very conservative mindset to feel that a new generation should be held back, because it infringes on the old school.
Old 29th November 2009
  #127
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Gretschman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Sure. Start with a Josephson capsule and make somthing lika a Manley Gold Reference for $7200. Or perhaps do what Gene Lawson does - make everything yourself and end up with something like an L47 for $2000.

That is not the value proposition I am known for.

I'm curious as to the business model that you have chosen for yourself and
other than price , how are you going to differ from the two you mentioned ?

I personally know those men and they have my admiration and respect .

What products are in your scope to manufacture and how do you see them
competing in this market place ?
Old 29th November 2009
  #128
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it seems so weird that on a forum strictly for recording, everyone has taken an oppositional stance against what michael is doing.......

michael, why are so many opposed to what you are doing??????????

and why is everyone's questions coined in an antagonistic tone?


it seems to me michael is doing something new and being criticised for it, for going against the grain.................


why the opposition??????????

if he stopped production of his mics, would things change?????
Old 29th November 2009
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretschman View Post
I'm curious as to the business model that you have chosen for yourself and
other than price , how are you going to differ from the two you mentioned ?

I personally know those men and they have my admiration and respect .

What products are in your scope to manufacture and how do you see them
competing in this market place ?
Its very hard to launch a new mic brand from a standing start. So my business model to date has been to take high-volume selling (large installed base in other words), "diamond in the rough" mics, upgrade them through a combination of acoustical, physical and electronic re-engineering and deliver sound quality that goes head to head with Neumann mics (don't take my word for it, listen for your self or read some user testimonials). My mics get used by major engineers and producers such as Kramer, Damian Taylor (Björk), Rob Schnapf (Beck, Elliot Smith) and Adam Lasus (Clap Your Hands Say Yeah) as well as thousands of local, indy-level folks - and folks can acquire a mic from me for about 1/8 the price of a Neumann. Over 2500 clients would not be users of my mics if I was not offering a high value proposition.

Going forward I'll deliver the same value proposition (performance, price, personal service) with newly manufactured MJE-Michael Joly Edition mics - SDC, LDC, FET, Tube and Ribbon.

I respect all the cats working in this field - Josephson, Royer, Lawson, Korby, Peluso, Pearlman etc and know some of them on a first name basis.

But my clients tell me I offer a unique combination of value - plus they really like working with me. I believe I'm going to do just fine at supporting my long term clients and attracting new customers who will respond to the specific combination of value I offer. Oh, and I have particular approach to microphone voicing that pleases me and the folks who buy from me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
...michael, why are so many opposed to what you are doing????????????...
Well, a few people opposed have stated their reasons pretty clearly. But the number of these folks is only a tiny number compared to the number of people who are very supportive of what I have done, and will do in the future. I'm not deterred, but rather - determined.
Old 29th November 2009
  #130
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
it seems so weird that on a forum strictly for recording, everyone has taken an oppositional stance against what michael is doing.......

michael, why are so many opposed to what you are doing??????????

and why is everyone's questions coined in an antagonistic tone?


it seems to me michael is doing something new and being criticised for it, for going against the grain.................


why the opposition??????????

if he stopped production of his mics, would things change?????
I'm not Michael, but I've got a pretty good idea as to why.

I think it has nothing to do with Oktavamod and thier mics and everything to do with the economic situation that our country, and to a slightly lesser degree, our world has gotten itself into.

I don't think it's personal, and I don't think it's product related. Michael is highly regarded from what I've seen, but he has decided to step foot into a political hot zone.

We've sold our heritage and future security for the cheap illusion of consumerism. More, more, more for less, less, less. Sooner or later, you've got to pay. No free lunch and all...... And those who are looking towards the future are starting to sweat bullets as they begin to see the writing on the wall. Not a pretty picture.

Expect more of this attitude as sleeping Americans begin to wake up.

A nice solution would be US made products selling into China, to help offset the overwhelming tide, but I think any trade going eastward will be a minute drop in the bucket. It would be nice to see MJE mics selling back into China - not as clones, rebranded or ripoffs, but as legit MJE mics. Do you think there's any chance of that?? (serious question, not meant as inflamitory)
Old 29th November 2009
  #131
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big country's Avatar
 

you know some people think money grows on trees or in stock markets

things and services don't grow on trees nor stock market ( excluding fruit )

I'm concerned about actual trade .I want a good trade system is all

if these people want to manufacture American goods
know at one time we had a closer to fair system
and that ultimately is a better quality life for every one

it goes with out saying you don't rip someone off they dont get
pissed ,



I dont want to lose my opportunities to provide .
nor do I want to be in paper debt. over a miss used system
Old 29th November 2009
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
...A nice solution would be US made products selling into China, to help offset the overwhelming tide, but I think any trade going eastward will be a minute drop in the bucket. It would be nice to see MJE mics selling back into China - not as clones, rebranded or ripoffs, but as legit MJE mics. Do you think there's any chance of that?? (serious question, not meant as inflamitory)
Yes, there is more than a chance of that, it is part of my business plan. I can't reveal specifics yet, but China and S.E. Asia distribution is in the works.
Old 29th November 2009
  #133
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Yes, there is more than a chance of that, it is part of my business plan. I can't reveal specifics yet, but China and S.E. Asia distribution is in the works.
That's good to know. thumbsupthumbsup

Now, if we can actually get goods that are physically designed, manufactured and distributed from US soil over there, that's an even better proposition, and really, the thing that needs to happen. It's the only solution to the completely lop-sided business model that China/US has found themselves in.
Old 29th November 2009
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Yes, there is more than a chance of that, it is part of my business plan. I can't reveal specifics yet, but China and S.E. Asia distribution is in the works.
Old 29th November 2009
  #135
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Oh, I've forgotten to mention - I anticipate being able to create a couple of full time, US jobs as a result of my expansion plans.
Old 29th November 2009
  #136
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drBill's Avatar
hehheh

Good. There's close to 3 million unemployed US citizens that would jump at it I'd say.



Note to department of unemployment.....2 down 2,999,998 to go....... heh heh
Old 29th November 2009
  #137
Gear Nut
 

Quite frankly it is very simple: corporations outsource production to China to reduce costs and increase profits. Mr. Joly is no different, he can blame any US president, but his own greed is the motive. Produce any widget in China at lower costs and increase profit. With all due respect to Mr. Joly, there is no other reason to build anything in China or any other emerging market for that matter. Blame any administration you want, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, etc, but the only reason you are producing anything in China is so you can make more money.
Yes, I work for a multi-national Corporation that outsources to China as well as other emerging markets. Quality is put aside for profitability. Get over it!

Nice pics by the way...
Old 29th November 2009
  #138
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if things weren't so based on a consumer market, it wouldn't have gotten so bad....


i don't think selling products to china is the answer.....although, that is a great idea and would work, but i don't see it happening


america needs to rebuild a system that's based on social programs, such as treating humans and developing a need for strong communication, psychology based and medical based systems that can renew the mindset of our country...
something along the lines of re-evaluating our goals as a culture and putting love into the education systems rather than money.

i honestly feel that america has all the material things we need....but our love for possessions is our loss, china's gain.



it seems crazy to me that you see people in third world countries who have people dying off daily from deadly diseases, can't afford a a piece of bread, have no clean water, yet they still are mentally sound and see the meaning of life............... while americans who have it all needs pills for depression and can't see optimism in anything...........

wait.... sorry for getting off topic a bit.
Old 29th November 2009
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big country View Post
I dont want to lose my opportunities to provide .
nor do I want to be in paper debt. over a miss used system
people in the US are in paper debt not because of a trade deficit. the US economy is entirely based on credit ie debt. every dollar you make is worth less the next day for a plethora of reasons. 1 is that govts start printing money. 2, because of the way americans spend more than they have (credit cards, mortgage, car financing). I mean even the school system is too expensive to pay off. You are out of college and then you are in debt for 60Gs on TOP of all that other debt.

This circle of debt was NOT because of foreign trade policy. If anything, foreign trade policy just facilitated the gluttony. Combo of borrowing money internationally (of course including China) and not fixing the problem at home caused it- not trade.

If you were to buy all American, i am sure you couldnt afford life. at the same time your dollar is worth less every minute. bringing back manufacturing jobs would only increase the cost of the same good. then those american companies wouldn't be competitive with companies abroad who could offer the same good for a cheaper price. then america would go even deeper into a tailspin that it couldn't get out of. it is a global economy now and as the champions of capitalism, it is up to us to sink or swim (i was born in LA). if america is the country of innovation, please let's innovate.
Old 29th November 2009
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicD View Post
Quite frankly it is very simple: corporations outsource production to China to reduce costs and increase profits. Mr. Joly is no different, he can blame any US president, but his own greed is the motive. Produce any widget in China at lower costs and increase profit. With all due respect to Mr. Joly, there is no other reason to build anything in China or any other emerging market for that matter. Blame any administration you want, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, etc, but the only reason you are producing anything in China is so you can make more money.
Yes, I work for a multi-national Corporation that outsources to China as well as other emerging markets. Quality is put aside for profitability. Get over it!
...you hit on the one simple factor that has brought America to this place and time economically..."greed"...yours, mine, his, theirs, etc...greed brought us down...not the Chinese, not the Germans, not the Russians...our own home-grown greed (like the deregulation of the banking industries & wall street, over-inflated real estate speculation, etc, etc)...and just like us, the Chinese are getting a crash course in the glory of greed...it's only a matter of time before they dig their own hole...economic evolution...it's a b*tch!...

...now let the guy sell some mics...jeez
Old 29th November 2009
  #141
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forgot to mention..

there are foreign companies who manufacture here in china and sell to china markets at international prices so yes it can be done. clothing brands like nike, adidas... electronic brands like sony and samsung... all manufacture here but still price their goods at international rates- and they are making a killing.
Old 29th November 2009
  #142
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big country's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkung View Post
people in the US are in paper debt not because of a trade deficit. the US economy is entirely based on credit ie debt. every dollar you make is worth less the next day for a plethora of reasons. 1 is that govts start printing money. 2, because of the way americans spend more than they have (credit cards, mortgage, car financing). I mean even the school system is too expensive to pay off. You are out of college and then you are in debt for 60Gs on TOP of all that other debt.

This circle of debt was NOT because of foreign trade policy. If anything, foreign trade policy just facilitated the gluttony. Combo of borrowing money internationally (of course including China) and not fixing the problem at home caused it- not trade.

If you were to buy all American, i am sure you couldn't afford life. at the same time your dollar is worth less every minute. bringing back manufacturing jobs would only increase the cost of the same good. then those American companies wouldn't be competitive with companies abroad who could offer the same good for a cheaper price. then America would go even deeper into a tailspin that it couldn't get out of. it is a global economy now and as the champions of capitalism, it is up to us to sink or swim (i was born in LA). if america is the country of innovation, please let's innovate.
before the wheel is reinvented
its best to reinvent the road it will be rolling on

basically reinvent the process of trade then reinvent the actual trade
could make the inventing and engineering process much simpler
beginning to end


a new idea into a new system
new ideas are easier with a new ideal .
theory, it clears any probability its a nonstop forward repetition
Old 29th November 2009
  #143
Gear Nut
 

Yes, the trade imbalance between America and China is contributing in no small way to bringing the US to its economic knees ... and this brings with it resentment and anger ...

It would seem that Mr Joly is attempting to reverse the trend ... In the greater scheme of multi-trillion dollar deficits his contribution may be denigrated by some as a "drop in a bucket", but the same internationally oriented entrepreneurial spirit exhibited by more of America's small businesses could go some way towards redressing this imbalance ...

As Mr Joly notes, his expansion may well create new jobs here in the US ... Isn't this what our former economic success and strength was originally built on ... ?? .... small business by small business, a few jobs at a time ... Yes - all driven by the "greed" of the individuals who had the guts to risk their financial security to realize their dreams and actually CREATE something ...

As Mr Joly also notes, in the current economic climate he would not be ABLE to expand his business, or to create new jobs - or to even consider reverse marketing into Asia if he ignored economic realities or refused, on principle, to involve overseas manufacturers ...

Instead, he has chosen to make the best use of what actually IS, while refusing to compromise his own standards of quality and principles of affordability ...

just my $0.0000000002

Good luck, Mr Joly ...

Carter
Old 29th November 2009
  #144
Gear Maniac
 
low_z's Avatar
 

Go Joly! + aggregate gains

Wow, reading this thread has been quite a journey!
It sounds as if Mr. Joly has planned/is planning his business to operate on the principle of creating positive aggregates for both China and the US in terms of "non-zero game." If piloted correctly, I imagine the business would both provide folks in the US and China the opportunity to purchase mics with a high quality to cost ratio while creating jobs in both countries respectively.
The future is inevitably global economics or... I
Think mutually beneficial and progressive as opposed to isolationist and sheltering "us" vs. "them" thinking

Personally, I (as of just recently) own a pair of Fathead microphones which were manufactured in China, shipped to the US where they were re-tensioned QC'd etc.., and finally sold to me over the phone.

Inexpensive mic with high performance for China and US citizens = + aggregate gain
Manufacturing jobs in China = + aggregate gain
QC job & (friendly) customer service for tech info & sales assistance in US = + aggregate gain


I know this is a very, very simplified version of non-zero sum game theory and there probably some negatives I overlooked (environmental factors etc...) but it is a valid and progressive way of thinking. Not right or wrong. Just different in the "new" globalized world economy. I think wallstreet F***ers and ******s like Madoff are the ones who we should be "blaming" for our economic situation (if indeed there is a need to blame) not trade with China, or any other country for that matter.

btw, buying the cascade mic pair allowed me to (kind of) same money to spend on my FMR Audio RNP (made in Austin TX. Yee Haw!!). Working for a family owned and operated (7 of us incl. owners) boutique winery, I understand that the boutique midrange market is sustainable only for certain business plans. (btw, the winemaker and myself both enjoy many imported beverages from Thatcher's to Tsing Tao to Macon Village) Some serious + aggregate gains happening over here!

FYI: Just listened to the entire Bill Frisell "Nashville" Album while reading/posting. Love that guy.
Old 29th November 2009
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_z View Post

FYI: Just listened to the entire Bill Frisell "Nashville" Album while reading/posting. Love that guy.

cool, i recently played drums on an album with bill frisell....

awesome musician.
Old 29th November 2009
  #146
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Thanks for the encouraging words Carter, Low Z (et al) - and for the summary of some of my points.

If I was truly driven by greed I would have taken a different career path, financial derivatives perhaps, instead professional audio. Because what drives people in pro audio is passion for sound, not greed.

Yes, there is a market for American-made audio products priced at a level that compensates workers and management fairly. The American two-channel audiophile world, though small, remains healthy with many successful brand names in demand world wide. But these products are luxury items purchased by people of independent means as opposed to pro audio products purchased as trade tools that must deliver a return on investment.

The only way I can create the pro audio tools that my market wants is to continue on the path I'm on. I do not have the start up capital to create an entire mic manufacturing facility in my area - nor am I convinced there is a reasonable chance of seeing an adequate return on such an investment if the mics were to be priced at the level I'm known for - rather than as high-end boutique products.

With continued hard work, some luck and the support of my customers I'm going to create signature branded products, eventually create some US-based jobs and garner Asian as well as Western sales.

One can only walk on the path that is directly in front of one's feet. Different roads and highways may appear later. But for now, this is the path I'm on.
Attached Thumbnails
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-disillusive.jpg   China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-hallal.jpg   China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-path.jpg   China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-templebeach.jpg  
Old 29th November 2009
  #147
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low_z's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
cool, i recently played drums on an album with bill frisell....

awesome musician.
Care to divulge?
Old 29th November 2009
  #148
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You know with all the talk about mics, macro economics and geo politics I've forgotten to mention something important - but maybe it comes across in my pictures.

International business provides mutual opportunities for cultural learning and understanding. To have an experience of "brother" instead of "other" as I've said before. My Chinese associates have been the most gracious, friendly, warm, generous and welcoming folks I could ever hope to meet. I made them laugh and they repeatedly told me I was a "kind" person. The mutual fondness was palpable.

So I'm a strong believer in cross cultural contact as a way of making small steps toward greater respect and appreciation between people. A short story...

...at the conclusion of a wonderful Hunan-style meal at the end of my very long first day in Shanghai, the Tsingtao-fueled conversation turned to the topic of personal age. Turns out that my vendor's distributor from Beijing and I are just about the same age. Once we left the restaurant, I went up to him on the street and and said (through my interpreter): "I'd like to shake your hand in friendship. Both you and I are old enough to remember the bad times between our two countries and distrust. I'm happy that relations have improved to where you and I can share a meal together." His response was: "Yes, now I feel I have an American brother". I didn't see this gentleman again until the end of my trip a week later. But when we did meet he specifically asked for a picture to be taken of us together. i'll repeat it here because its message is worth repeating.
Attached Thumbnails
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-brothers.jpg  
Old 29th November 2009
  #149
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Matti
Old 29th November 2009
  #150
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"In order to control and indeed feed it's vast population. China (apologies to those sensitive to generalisation, but that is what we call the country) uses force.
Many other countries are similar or worse."
...the irony of this statement is no doubt glaring to our non-American slutz and yet completely lost on many American slutz as it apparently was to the original poster.
I love America and Americans and pray for a new Age of Enlightenment with a fresh cop of Madison's, Washington's, Franklin's, et al. Where are they.
...but really this thread is bordering on "move to the moan zone" time unfortunately.
Michael Joly's mic's are going to rock and allow many, many people to make better recordings. It's all good.
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