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China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts Condenser Microphones
Old 28th November 2009
  #91
Lives for gear
 

I see your point matt,
Everyone "would like to keep it in the family" or in your case ,patents invented by americans should be manufactured by americans for the benifit of americans.
IMO Humanity should benifit from technology not a specific nation.
Patriotism is simmilar to racism just sounds better.

Current world rules declairs , who ever produces quicker,cheaper and doesnt complain or starts a worker union gets the contact.
One could say that these world rules are more of giant corporate state of mind. pump my pockets with money, I dont care how.
If everyone around me will hate me for it or even die,so be it.
On every aspect of life (energy,food,govermet,health) that you can point evil can be found, is that reasonable?
To tell you the truth I hate living in this world so I rather shut my eyes and ears as much as I can but stuff still sip through Im afrid.

This way of thinking is old and based in the colonial days.
Back then the economy was concentrated in the hands of loyalty now its in private hands,are we living in a better world now? I dont think so.
Hell one might say that this way of thinking roots in the days when men was no different from beast, survival of the fittest.
The world is on the verge of a revolution and I sure hope it wont be a violent one.
Old 28th November 2009
  #92
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big country's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomer1 View Post
I see your point matt,
Everyone "would like to keep it in the family" or in your case ,patents invented by americans should be manufactured by americans for the benifit of americans.
Current world rules declairs , who ever produces quicker,cheaper and doesnt complain or starts a worker union gets the contact.
One could say that these world rules are more of giant corporate state of mind. pump my pockets with money I dont care how even if small childern have to die for it.

This way of thinking is old and based in the colonial days.
The world is on the verge of a revolution and I sure hope it wont be a violent one.
allot of audio stuff is European
truthfully it comes from all over .
Old 28th November 2009
  #93
Gear Maniac
 
ArnauTS's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by big country View Post
allot of audio stuff is European
truthfully it comes from all over .
true neumann is a germany manufacturer for example..
Nice to see this photos
Old 28th November 2009
  #94
Lives for gear
 

i will try to get this post back on topic after.....

1. China's wages are not artificial. People think if you make 150 dollars a month, you cant survive and its cruel. FYI, in china a bowl of noodles costs 40 cents. a 22 oz beer costs about 30. Factory workers get full housing paid for also. (not that they aren't unfair factories who just don't pay their workers but this aint Burma- what an ignorant comment when talking about China)

2. China has invented the toilet, paper, printing, compass, gunpowder, etc. So spare me on the innovation tip.

3. Artificial economy is exactly the reason the US is in the position it is now. A messed up monetary system along with war spending is how the US got where it is. Is the kettle calling the tea pot orange here? But its all good- just print more money!!!

4. If forcing yourself and other businesses to strictly manufacture in X country even if prices are cheaper in another country is a personal choice (admirable and patriotic even to some). However, it doesn't seem very "capitalist" now does it?

5. It is the responsibility of the any gov't to create jobs for its people. The US is the leader in the world and should be creating jobs in new sectors of the economy. This is the natural progression of a developing nation. New technologies spark new industries which lead to more jobs. That is why there is now a green sector (which is another debate entirely).

6. About the relocation of jobs, this also seems to go against the capitalist mentality doesnt it? So India does not deserve the benefits of capitalism? Or was capitalism limited to your own country? If you think that jobs need to be protected and that everyone should be fed... that sounds alot like...

7. Piracy is EVERYWHERE. China has just called out the elephant in the room. Just ask the RIAA if there is piracy in the states. (or anyone on this board )


SO ABOUT ENGINEERS IN CHINA....

I think the majority of new engineers can't really be called engineers. I can't even consider myself one. I am a recording artist/producer/broadcast host and producer. When i first got into the business 10 years ago, i learned behind one of beijing's only SSL 9000Js. But that studio now is long gone and so are the engineers that i learned from. They either opened their own small PT studios or started repping pro audio companies. I learned out of interest, but record in my own studio out of necessity. If i had the budget to be back in a Sam Toyoshima designed room, I would.

Nowadays, i would suspect its very much like anywhere else- home studios are growing. On our radio show (chinas first hip hop radio show) we get songs from our listeners all the time. The recording quality on 80% is such junk we can't even air it. In fact, i even try to give tutorials on proper recording. Alot of the hip hop and pop community now record at my studio cuz i offer it up to them for basically free.

There are a few forums about recording but none have the knowledge of Gearslutz. I learned 80% of what i know from this board. It amazes me everyday. I try to share this with peeps out here.

China gov't has TONS of recording equipment and TONS of studios that are just being unused with no engineers behind them. They buy them for govt media. Its classic hardware vs software.

There are a few gems here. You can get fantastic string recordings done in China. Drums i would probably go somewhere else like the states (reverse outsourcing!)

I think what Mike is doing is basically what companies are supposed to do. Produce a good product, find a balance between quality and cheap manufacturing, and provide it at a price point where he can satisfy customers and make a profit. I was one of those satisfied customers. Who knows? he might actually sell to China and make some money the other way.... trust me, there is enough disposable income here for this to start happening.
Old 28th November 2009
  #95
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

best of luck with your endeavor Michael_Joly!
Old 28th November 2009
  #96
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkung View Post
i will try to get this post back on topic after.....

3. Artificial economy is exactly the reason the US is in the position it is now. A messed up monetary system along with war spending is how the US got where it is.

5. It is the responsibility of the any gov't to create jobs for its people. The US is the leader in the world and should be creating jobs in new sectors of the economy. This is the natural progression of a developing nation. New technologies spark new industries which lead to more jobs. That is why there is now a green sector (which is another debate entirely).

7. Piracy is EVERYWHERE. China has just called out the elephant in the room. Just ask the RIAA if there is piracy in the states. (or anyone on this board )

I think what Mike is doing is basically what companies are supposed to do. Produce a good product, find a balance between quality and cheap manufacturing, and provide it at a price point where he can satisfy customers and make a profit. I was one of those satisfied customers.
Touche' on all of this. Excellent points. thumbsup
Old 28th November 2009
  #97
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SkunkWorks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkung View Post
deathly rash inducing fabrics...
So tell me more about these rash inducing fabrics. I ask because I was with my crew at work one day and we stopped into a place called XS Cargo which is a liquidator of mostly cheap chinese stuff. One of my co-workers bought a cheap bag of work socks. We got back in the truck and she opened the bag and put on a pair. She instantly got a rash, the other guy's eyes started watering and within half an hour I started having sneezing fits and thought I had caught the current cold/flu that was going around. I was perfectly fine the next day. We are now wondering what the hell was in that bag.

Sorry to hijack, Michael. But I need to know
Old 28th November 2009
  #98
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tapehiss's Avatar
thanks jkung.

i really enjoyed jkung's points and its nice to hear a point of view from someone who is actually living in china....

i feel your post puts things to rest..... although people's opinions don't usually change.... this discussion has been full circle....

jjjeeeeezzzz michael, look what your pictures did here........


i honestly can't wait for michael's new products to be available to the public.... i assume they will only be of great quality and still be affordable enough for me to buy them without having to save for several months.


it's crazy to think china now has disposable income, and i know things are just going to keep moving foward for that country....
im sure in ten years or so, there pro audio gear will have probably become professional.
Old 28th November 2009
  #99
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkung View Post
i will try to get this post back on topic after.....

1. China's wages are not artificial. People think if you make 150 dollars a month, you cant survive and its cruel. FYI, in china a bowl of noodles costs 40 cents. a 22 oz beer costs about 30. Factory workers get full housing paid for also. (not that they aren't unfair factories who just don't pay their workers but this aint Burma- what an ignorant comment when talking about China)

2. China has invented the toilet, paper, printing, compass, gunpowder, etc. So spare me on the innovation tip.

3. Artificial economy is exactly the reason the US is in the position it is now. A messed up monetary system along with war spending is how the US got where it is. Is the kettle calling the tea pot orange here? But its all good- just print more money!!!

4. If forcing yourself and other businesses to strictly manufacture in X country even if prices are cheaper in another country is a personal choice (admirable and patriotic even to some). However, it doesn't seem very "capitalist" now does it?

5. It is the responsibility of the any gov't to create jobs for its people. The US is the leader in the world and should be creating jobs in new sectors of the economy. This is the natural progression of a developing nation. New technologies spark new industries which lead to more jobs. That is why there is now a green sector (which is another debate entirely).

6. About the relocation of jobs, this also seems to go against the capitalist mentality doesnt it? So India does not deserve the benefits of capitalism? Or was capitalism limited to your own country? If you think that jobs need to be protected and that everyone should be fed... that sounds alot like...

7. Piracy is EVERYWHERE. China has just called out the elephant in the room. Just ask the RIAA if there is piracy in the states. (or anyone on this board )


SO ABOUT ENGINEERS IN CHINA....

I think the majority of new engineers can't really be called engineers. I can't even consider myself one. I am a recording artist/producer/broadcast host and producer. When i first got into the business 10 years ago, i learned behind one of beijing's only SSL 9000Js. But that studio now is long gone and so are the engineers that i learned from. They either opened their own small PT studios or started repping pro audio companies. I learned out of interest, but record in my own studio out of necessity. If i had the budget to be back in a Sam Toyoshima designed room, I would.

Nowadays, i would suspect its very much like anywhere else- home studios are growing. On our radio show (chinas first hip hop radio show) we get songs from our listeners all the time. The recording quality on 80% is such junk we can't even air it. In fact, i even try to give tutorials on proper recording. Alot of the hip hop and pop community now record at my studio cuz i offer it up to them for basically free.

There are a few forums about recording but none have the knowledge of Gearslutz. I learned 80% of what i know from this board. It amazes me everyday. I try to share this with peeps out here.

China gov't has TONS of recording equipment and TONS of studios that are just being unused with no engineers behind them. They buy them for govt media. Its classic hardware vs software.

There are a few gems here. You can get fantastic string recordings done in China. Drums i would probably go somewhere else like the states (reverse outsourcing!)

I think what Mike is doing is basically what companies are supposed to do. Produce a good product, find a balance between quality and cheap manufacturing, and provide it at a price point where he can satisfy customers and make a profit. I was one of those satisfied customers. Who knows? he might actually sell to China and make some money the other way.... trust me, there is enough disposable income here for this to start happening.
Hey Jkung - thank you for being here! Its so important for your voice, and the voice of other Chinese musicians and engineers to be heard. Its very rare that we in West get to hear from folks who have basically the same desires and dreams that we do. Please persevere and continue to be a part of this discussion.

I mean, we have American ingenuity (ARPAnet which became the Internet) and Chinese manufacturing work ethic to thank for the fact that we are having this conversation - not to mention your own study and practice to learn a foreign language, something that most American's don't possess or practice.
Old 28th November 2009
  #100
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mingustoo's Avatar
 

It's amazing. you mention the word 'China' on GSlutz and the level of stupidity in the room just goes through the roof. The stupidity then gets coupled with paranoia, misinformation and twisted logic. After which it is laminated in misogyny and painted with a veneer of misguided patriotism and occasionally racism for good measure.
Old 28th November 2009
  #101
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Old Goat's Avatar
 

Michael, two thumbs up for your endeavor. I wish you the best of luck, and if I'm in the market for a product you have, you'll be the first one I talk to.thumbsupthumbsupheh
Old 28th November 2009
  #102
Lives for gear
 

I don't know of any deathly rash inducing fabric. that was just an example in regards to the QC argument. so please dont think you are going to die. i do suggest chucking those shoes and calling that company.... cuz that is f'd up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkunkWorks View Post
So tell me more about these rash inducing fabrics. I ask because I was with my crew at work one day and we stopped into a place called XS Cargo which is a liquidator of mostly cheap chinese stuff. One of my co-workers bought a cheap bag of work socks. We got back in the truck and she opened the bag and put on a pair. She instantly got a rash, the other guy's eyes started watering and within half an hour I started having sneezing fits and thought I had caught the current cold/flu that was going around. I was perfectly fine the next day. We are now wondering what the hell was in that bag.

Sorry to hijack, Michael. But I need to know
Old 28th November 2009
  #103
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Marik's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomer1 View Post
I see your point matt,
Everyone "would like to keep it in the family" or in your case ,patents invented by americans should be manufactured by americans for the benifit of americans.
IMO Humanity should benifit from technology not a specific nation.
Patriotism is simmilar to racism just sounds better.
Haha, can, bidijuk. Bo nedaber al ha'patriotism shel' ha'am ha'yehudim hehhehheh.

No, nobody talks about patents and keeping them in the family. That would be ridiculous. I repeat again, it is one thing to use an idea, it is completely different thing to copy the final product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
funny how in the end this boiled down to a difference of opinion between the two guys hailed as pretty much the 'mic mod kings'
Well, it is not even about opinion, it is about approach. Neither is "better" or "worse". They are just... different. And actually, it was not me to start that controversy .
This is my believe, every designer has to have a pride of coming out not only with a good product, but also has to have a pride of putting to the market ORIGINAL product. From that point of view if I were to put to a market say SDC mic I could not see myself to use any other capsule other than one of my own design, or at least of original design and rather pay for the license. But if my goal was just to sell a (good) product then most likely my approach would have been different. But again, that's just me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Marik, I admire your dedication to doing it locally. You've got some machining chops and equipment I don't have so you personally can R&D and direct local manufacturers (or perhaps do it yourself) to execute on your designs. As I've said before, I think you personally can do well as a boutique ribbon mic manufacturer / transformer house. You've got a personal brand that means high quality. And "made locally" is strong brand equity as well. Unlike me, you don't have a published price point for your work that a new "signature branded" mic can be evaluated against. So you're free to create a new mic, or line of mics and postion them at a price point that will allow reasonable profit in relationship to your costs.

I've chosen to augment my personal skill set and available resources with complimentary skills and resources from vendors that can allow me to produce products at a price / value point consistent with my activities to date - a value proposition that my market regards very favorably. The answer, for me, like many "big name" mic manufacturers is to tap into the skills and resources of a vibrant microphone manufacturing industry in China.
Michael,

I will tell you the reasons I do it here. As you (I am sure) know, every tech, every designer, every manufacturer have their own techniques and lot of small and big trade secrets. I've been working on my designs, thinking, making research, and perfecting techniques for many years and have invested thousands dollars into the R&D, not to count thousands of hours.
Indeed, I have all the necessary metal machinery for production, as well as winding equipment in my lab. Of course, I am doing all the prototyping myself. But again, I did not always have the machinery and I did not always knew how to use it. I accumulate it all (and then was upgrading a lot) throughout many years, when I was prototyping things and trying different and completely new ideas. To have my own equipment was the only way I could try as many of different ideas as I possibly wanted. All I can say, it was much cheaper to actually buy my own machinery than to go to the local shop (where I'd easily pay at least a grand for a mic, just for machining when in a single quantity). But again, when I order in quantities of thousands, then it is very different.
I actually can do smaller runs from my lab, however, for the bigger quantities I probably will go to the CNC shop, just to save time for other things.

So if I move the production to China it means, I will need to teach all those secrets--how to make an efficient motor, how to make a good transformer, what core to use, what winding techniques to use, how to cut ribbons, corrugate them, install the right way, tune, etc. i.e basically, to give all the aspects of art of microphone making away, so tomorrow the market will be flooded with the same mics sold for peanuts, while (of course), I don't get any royalties for that. This is not exactly how I see the business should be operated and this is not what I want. I do not know one single manufacturer in China I could trust all of these won't be stolen.

Besides, for the quality of the product I want, I will need to personally supervise every single step of the production process and that's probably the single most important reason--if you want the job done well, do it yourself.

Best, M
Old 28th November 2009
  #104
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingustoo View Post
misguided patriotism
Along with a generous dose of "my way is the only way" bs and "my belief is the one that's correct".
Old 28th November 2009
  #105
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tapehiss's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marik View Post
Haha, can, bidijuk. Bo nedaber al ha'patriotism shel' ha'am ha'yehudim hehhehheh.


So if I move the production to China it means, I will need to teach all those secrets--how to make an efficient motor, how to make a good transformer, what core to use, what winding techniques to use, how to cut ribbons, corrugate them, install the right way, tune, etc. i.e basically, to give all the aspects of art of microphone making away, so tomorrow the market will be flooded with the same mics sold for peanuts, while (of course), I don't get any royalties for that. This is not exactly how I see the business should be operated and this is not what I want. I do not know one single manufacturer in China I could trust all of these won't be stolen.

Besides, for the quality of the product I want, I will need to personally supervise every single step of the production process and that's probably the single most important reason--if you want the job done well, do it yourself.

Best, M
<Marik,

this makes a lot of sense..... and you make a great point..... as i have seen several occasions in which someone hires a chinese manufacturer to create a mic design, and within a few months, that will soon be a mic available for the next rebrander to re-brand....
- i have much respect for your choice of being the sole producer of your products.....and if i ever took the years to create some designs, i never would give them up unless i knew they were going to be kept secret............ but then again, there is tons of guys in the business who reverse engineer.............unless you make magic happen within your shop without using other parts manufacturers, which it sounds like your doing...........

- i can see how a chinese manufacturer would be wrong for your designs, but seems like the best route for a business like oktavamod....


can't wait to see your future designs marik, hope they are available before too long.
Old 28th November 2009
  #106
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tapehiss's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
Along with a generous dose of "my way is the only way" bs and "my belief is the one that's correct".
this is called ethnocentrism, but most american's don't know other cultural values besides their own....
Old 28th November 2009
  #107
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkung View Post
i
Nowadays, i would suspect its very much like anywhere else- home studios are growing. On our radio show (chinas first hip hop radio show) we get songs from our listeners all the time. The recording quality on 80% is such junk we can't even air it. In fact, i even try to give tutorials on proper recording..........


China gov't has TONS of recording equipment and TONS of studios that are just being unused with no engineers behind them. They buy them for govt media. Its classic hardware vs software..............

There are a few gems here. You can get fantastic string recordings done in China. Drums i would probably go somewhere else like the states (reverse outsourcing!)
I made regular trips to Beijing for years and recorded orchestra dates at the CCTV government studios for music for CCTV International. Two huge studios with large recording rooms that could accommodate full orchestras plus. One studio had a Sony Oxford, the other a Neve 88R. Protools, Sony digital 48 track. Quite a setup. The engineers were good, but our concept was different. I had to struggle to get the engineer to build a mix from the rhythm section up. If you listen to traditional Chinese music you'll hear drums and percussion sprinkled on top of a track, not driving it from underneath. In any case, it was a fascinating experience.

Yes, you can get good string tracks, but you'll find the players are more aggressive, or perhaps just enthusiastic, and may lack in dynamic nuance. The biggest problems I had were with brass and French horn. My conductor explained to me, after much intonation difficulty and many cracked notes, that Chinese are just not physically built to play these instruments. Hey, that's him, not me, talking.

Regarding your first point, yes, it was astounding how bad, or at least lacking in common sense, the mixing was by the up and coming engineers. I gave some seminars at the China Central Conservatory, part of which involved critiquing mixes, and I was just befuddled and at a lack of what to say to bring someone around to a credible concept.

The cultural chasm manifests itself in so many ways, all of which I ultimately found fascinating, and at times humbling.

-R
Old 28th November 2009
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
I made regular trips to Beijing for years and recorded orchestra dates at the CCTV government studios for music for CCTV International. Two huge studios with large recording rooms that could accommodate full orchestras plus. One studio had a Sony Oxford, the other a Neve 88R. Protools, Sony digital 48 track. Quite a setup. The engineers were good, but our concept was different. I had to struggle to get the engineer to build a mix from the rhythm section up. If you listen to traditional Chinese music you'll hear drums and percussion sprinkled on top of a track, not driving it from underneath. In any case, it was a fascinating experience.

Yes, you can get good string tracks, but you'll find the players are more aggressive, or perhaps just enthusiastic, and may lack in dynamic nuance. The biggest problems I had were with brass and French horn. My conductor explained to me, after much intonation difficulty and many cracked notes, that Chinese are just not physically built to play these instruments. Hey, that's him, not me, talking.

Regarding your first point, yes, it was astounding how bad, or at least lacking in common sense, the mixing was by the up and coming engineers. I gave some seminars at the China Central Conservatory, part of which involved critiquing mixes, and I was just befuddled and at a lack of what to say to bring someone around to a credible concept.

The cultural chasm manifests itself in so many ways, all of which I ultimately found fascinating, and at times humbling.

-R

A big issue is the definition of a "good sound". I imagine it was difficult for you to critique a mix when the levels were probably not even right. Its almost going back to mixing 101. I had another engineer friend of mine say that many engineers here dont even know what a well mic'd drum kit even sounds like. alot of it is just based on exposure to music.

there are a few knowledgeable guys out here but it doesn't seem like its trickling down to young engineers.
Old 28th November 2009
  #109
Gear Guru
Bigger Issues

In order to control and indeed feed it's vast population. China (apologies to those sensitive to generalisation, but that is what we call the country) uses force.
Many other countries are similar or worse. However, should we trade with them? Should we trade so avariciously that we become indebted, and ultimately owned by them?

One little man copies some classic products exactly. Strangely he finds it impossible to do that within his own continent. Instead he finds a willing and able factory 10,000? miles away. The price is so low that transport cost is not an issue.

Something wrong with this picture?

And by the way, let's not forget this guy and what he stood for.
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-240px-tianasquare.jpg

DD
Old 28th November 2009
  #110
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkung View Post
... SO ABOUT ENGINEERS IN CHINA....

...There are a few forums about recording but none have the knowledge of Gearslutz. I learned 80% of what i know from this board. It amazes me everyday. I try to share this with peeps out here.

China gov't has TONS of recording equipment and TONS of studios that are just being unused with no engineers behind them. They buy them for govt media. Its classic hardware vs software...
Your comments suggest a couple of ideas - perhaps there are opportunities for Western engineers and manufacturers to hold educational seminars in China, maybe in conjunction with the big shows like Pro Light + Sound Shanghai and PALM Beijing. Your second comment above is really intriguing - perhaps underutilized studios could be used as educational venues as well.

I have a hunch that a large, rapidly growing urban middle class in China with newly created disposable income could unleash a huge wave of creativity in music production - similar to how the post-war baby boom drove the growth of rock music in the West starting in the early 1960s. If true, this is going to create lots of opportunities for recording engineers etc.
Old 28th November 2009
  #111
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kidvybes's Avatar
 

...I think that Bo at Golden Age Projects in Sweden has already proven with his Neve-clone "PRE-73" that high quality audio can be mass manufactured in China with the assistance of improved QC control...he is currently working an a vintage-style compressor and the time he spends in developing and fine-tuning GAP's "clone" based gear and elevating QC control is paying off...
...with the "PRE-73"", if you so desire, you can upgrade many of the components with those used in the original Neve 1073 and for a fraction of the cost you are surprisingly close to the audio character of the real thing...just read Dave Thomas' review of the GAP preamp:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/4829614-post760.html

...I give Michael props for investing the time and effort to develop a similar relationship with a credible vendor in our current "global" community...I look forward to seeing and hearing the fruits of his efforts...
Old 28th November 2009
  #112
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SkunkWorks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkung View Post
I don't know of any deathly rash inducing fabric. that was just an example in regards to the QC argument. so please dont think you are going to die. i do suggest chucking those shoes and calling that company.... cuz that is f'd up.
Yeah we were kind of worried... but we laughed it off with some anthrax jokes
Old 28th November 2009
  #113
Gear Nut
 
TheEqualizer's Avatar
 

Cheap labor.

Using China's cheap labor to make yourself money in America.
Sounds pretty Capitalistic to me.
It may not be Nationalist, you decide.

This move is about money.

Since when did Americans start begrudging other Americans
for making money? Wait, there was that whole slavery thing......

Regardless....

Let's all make Joly's dreams come true by making him rich!!!


You with me America???!!!!???
Old 28th November 2009
  #114
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Old Goat's Avatar
 

How much would your mic cost if made by American machinists making $20-30 an hour plus bennies, Michael?

One of the main tenets of business economics is if someone is more cost-effective at something than you, pay him to do it and spend the time doing what you do best. Which is what he is doing.

That said, there's a small shop in St. Louis that could use some CNC work...heh
Old 28th November 2009
  #115
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Goat View Post
How much would your mic cost if made by American machinists making $20-30 an hour plus bennies, Michael?
Way more than it should retail for in order to be competitive. Unlike back in 2005 when Telefunken retailed their original M16 mic at $1399 when the same mic, branded as the Apex 460, sold for $299, I intend to give people real value.

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, I am known for providing a high level of performance at very reasonable prices. This is part of my personal brand story. Just listen to the performance of my modified Apex 460 relative to a Neumann U 47 and M 49 and consider that value. Same for my modified MK-219 against an M 149 , a modifed 603 SDC against a KM 184 or modified Apex 205 against a Coles 4038 and so on...

That's the type of value proposition I'm known for. I can't deliver that same price / performance ratio with a US manufactured product. I've done the research, done the math - it can't be done. I intend to deliver what my market is telling me they want to buy - original, signature-branded mics, sold with personal attention to each client, that are consistent with the value folks have come to expect from my aftermarket mods.
Old 28th November 2009
  #116
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illacov's Avatar
 

Sits on hands.

Peace
Illumination
Old 28th November 2009
  #117
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big country's Avatar
 

its one thing to give your own work away at a good value
but thats not the case , some one else is creating your value
your not cheap in your mod service right fully so.


I'm not saying its just you , its the whole deal . its not easy trying to
enter ones own manufacturing gig right now. the two manufacturing markets are way different .
and hey don't think I'm hounding you I'm a huge fan of your work

but if you do this deal your in competing of USA and European Mic's
who's to say that your chines Mic's couldn't hurt the current prices
of US made Mic's if this deal goes full scale
that would only yield in cheaper labor in the states yada fulcircle even more screwed
then we have Mexicans building USA Mic's or cheap labor US citizens at poverty wages
or chines building US designed chines made Mic's
thats great for a couple of people but its not cool for the rest


If your prices where around the same as USA and what the Europeans are asking I really couldn't see any problems




manufacturing is a whole other art besides making Mic's and who's to
say you wouldn't pick up on it at your own pace with your own styles
you'd probably miss all that going to china
Old 28th November 2009
  #118
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by big country View Post
its one thing to give your own work away at a good value
but thats not the case , some one else is creating your value
your not cheap in your mod service right fully so.

I'm not saying its just you , its the whole deal . its not easy trying to
enter ones own manufacturing gig right now. the two manufacturing markets are way different .
and hey don't think I'm hounding you I'm a huge fan of your work

but if you do this deal your in competing of USA and European Mic's
who's to say that your chines Mic's couldn't hurt the current prices
of US made Mic's if this deal goes full scale
that would only yield in cheaper labor in the states yada fulcircle even more screwed
then wed have Mexicans building USA Mic's and chines building US designed chines made Mic's
thats great for a couple of people but its not cool for the rest


manufacturing is a whole other art besides making Mic's and who's to
say you wouldn't pick up on it at your own pace with your own styles
you'd probably miss all that going to china

On an interesting note, I was just reading an excerpt from Les Paul in a magazine that talks about how we found the tape recorder during WWII in Germany. Apparently since the spoils of war go to the victors, we brought the tape machine back to the US, reverse engineered it and began making it. Was it Ampex who was the first to do it? I think so.

Now since the good ole US did it, does that make it different since we won a war and "gained" the technology during an occupation?? Was credit ever given to the German or God forbid **** scientist who built that thing??

You're going to have to fill me in on who is here in the US that manufactures and makes mics. Making mics can mean: US made capsule, US made tube, US made transformer. If its not a tube then the capsule and transformer, made here in the US is fine.

Fire away, I'm all eyes.

Peace
Illumination
Old 28th November 2009
  #119
Lives for gear
 
big country's Avatar
 

yeah and the tape machine just about coverd the cost of war
not to mention all the crazy **** that goes with war that I dont want to understand
Old 28th November 2009
  #120
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
I was just reading an excerpt from Les Paul in a magazine that talks about how we found the tape recorder during WWII in Germany
Germany was a step ahead of the alies in just about everything exept for the Atomic bomb.
Rocket technology,Tank design,Aircraft design,analog computers and just about anything military related (which of course later turned civil).
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