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China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts Condenser Microphones
Old 31st December 2009
  #661
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post
+2, nice logo!!!!


Old 31st December 2009
  #662
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I like the refinement that's occurred, but there's a glitch. While the name "Michael Joly" could be used as a logo (letter head etc) it can't be used as a trade mark. My pesky IP lawyer has strongly encouraged me to use the word "microphones" in my mark because not doing so constitutes a "weak" mark. Citations below.

RE: Dedicated trademark thread -

I think there's already enough cooks in the kitchen to cook up this stew and this thread has acquired a positive tone for the time being ; ) So I'm happy to leave the discussion here.



"Personal names can be used as a trademark only if it can be demonstrated that they possess "secondary meaning." Thus, personal names are similar to descriptive marks and they are considered to be weak marks. For the purposes of trademark registration, secondary meaning may be assumed after five years of continued and exclusive use of a mark. Black's Law Dictionary (Fifth Edition) defines the doctrine of secondary meaning for the purpose of trademark law as "[A] ... party through advertising or massive exposure ... [establishing] its trademark in the minds of consumers as an indication of origin from one particular source."

There are numerous examples of trademarks that use personal names: Chanel, Levis, Versace, Gucci, etc. These personal names are protected by trademark law because they have accomplished the objective of forming an association in the mind of the consumer which links the individual products with its manufacturer or distributor."

Reference:
[1] Stim, R. "Intellectual Property. Patents, Trademarks, and Copyrights" West Legal Studies.
[2] Black's Law Dictionary 5th ed., (West Publishing, 1979).
Old 31st December 2009
  #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
I like the refinement that's occurred, but there's a glitch. While the name "Michael Joly" could be used as a logo (letter head etc) it can't be used as a trade mark.
You're confusing logo and trademark. Remember: the logo doesn't need to include the name of your company. So, in the present case, your company can be called "Michael Joly Microphones" and the logo still be, for instance:

or
Old 31st December 2009
  #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
I like the refinement that's occurred, but there's a glitch. While the name "Michael Joly" could be used as a logo (letter head etc) it can't be used as a trade mark. My pesky IP lawyer has strongly encouraged me to use the word "microphones" in my mark because not doing so constitutes a "weak" mark. Citations below.

RE: Dedicated trademark thread -

I think there's already enough cooks in the kitchen to cook up this stew and this thread has acquired a positive tone for the time being ; ) So I'm happy to leave the discussion here.



"Personal names can be used as a trademark only if it can be demonstrated that they possess "secondary meaning." Thus, personal names are similar to descriptive marks and they are considered to be weak marks. For the purposes of trademark registration, secondary meaning may be assumed after five years of continued and exclusive use of a mark. Black's Law Dictionary (Fifth Edition) defines the doctrine of secondary meaning for the purpose of trademark law as "[A] ... party through advertising or massive exposure ... [establishing] its trademark in the minds of consumers as an indication of origin from one particular source."

There are numerous examples of trademarks that use personal names: Chanel, Levis, Versace, Gucci, etc. These personal names are protected by trademark law because they have accomplished the objective of forming an association in the mind of the consumer which links the individual products with its manufacturer or distributor."

Reference:
[1] Stim, R. "Intellectual Property. Patents, Trademarks, and Copyrights" West Legal Studies.
[2] Black's Law Dictionary 5th ed., (West Publishing, 1979).
So....place a small print "microphones" in the right bottom corner of that logo, and drop it in 5 when your name is the modern equivalent of "Nuemann" heh
Old 31st December 2009
  #665
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Thanks for that clarification. I misinterpreted the suggestion that "Michael Joly" (graphic) could be the company name. But yes, the company name will be "Michael Joly Microphones" and that can be a trademark. Do I have to make a decision about the logo before the year is out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysteryman View Post
So....place a small print "microphones" in the right bottom corner of that logo, and drop it in 5 when your name is the modern equivalent of "Nuemann" heh
Brilliant! Sinocelt - how do you think your lovely logo would look with small type "Microphones" added?
Old 31st December 2009
  #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysteryman View Post
So....place a small print "microphones" in the right bottom corner of that logo, and drop it in 5 when your name is the modern equivalent of "Nuemann" heh
That's a very good example: the official name of the company is not Neumann: it is Georg Neumann GmbH. On their logo, though, they just use "Neumann" (and older versions of their logo didn't have the name at all).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Thanks for that clarification. I misinterpreted the suggestion that "Michael Joly" (graphic) could be the company name. But yes, the company name will be "Michael Joly Microphones" and that can be a trademark. Do I have to make a decision about the logo before the year is out?
No, of course not. It should be ready before the actual products come out, but that's the only real deadline.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Brilliant! Sinocelt - how do you think your lovely logo would look with small type "Microphones" added?
I'll give it a go. I did something similar before, actually.






Keep in mind that, the smaller the font, the bigger the logo will have to be. For this specific logo, I think the "microphones" can be left out, because it is already present graphically: MICHAEL [microphone symbol] JOLY.


Old 31st December 2009
  #667
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I asked by brother Dave (an independent illustrator / animator) to look through this thread and offer an opinion. Here's what he said and did...

"Ok, went through the thread, pulled out everything that's been submitted. By far, my fave is Sinocelt's, post #668. I tweaked a couple versions of it below the top one attached. It's simple, a bit fun (with the mic), works great in black/white, gets the name front and center."
Attached Thumbnails
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-davesedit.jpg  
Old 31st December 2009
  #668
I want this as a bumper sticker for my car!
Old 31st December 2009
  #669
stw
Gear Head
 

nice logo!

but!

if you look carefully, you'll see that the head of the mic is not centered in the little arch (is that correct english?)

small detail, but still, i noticed it immediately
Old 31st December 2009
  #670
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Happy New Year to everybody in East!

As a way of closing out 2009 and ringing in 2010 I'd like to offer this excerpt of an interview I did in Feb 2008 with Andrew Delapp of Looming Pylon.

The last day of the year has such great transistional energy. And since we've been talking about the energetic possibilities contained in logos and trademarks, I'd like post an excerpt of my (not yet widely read) interview with Andy in this space for you all to enjoy. Best wishes for success in 2010!

---------

Friday, February 08, 2008
Andrew DeLapp interviews Michael Joly (excerpt)

AD: In reading your writing both on the website and elsewhere, I've noticed that you seem to see a certain element of transcendence in what you do. Are you a person of faith? If so, how does your faith interact with your work? What is it that makes a microphone more than the sum of its parts?

MJ: Good eyes! I rarely get asked about this aspect of my work. I'll try and give an answer that makes sense in this context. I am a person of faith. I believe that the work I do is but one of many jobs along a nearly infinite and reiterative path of spiritual growth back toward the Universal Origin. My work is essentially that of one who clarifies patterns and strives to reduce dissonance in communication systems so that messages can be heard more clearly. I don't sing the call to prayer but rather make it heard better.

The essential nature of my work is carried out with a cognizance that the materials I touch have the same ultimate origin as my own form and spirit. So they are divine and have a "desire" to be reunited with their Universal Origin. The manipulation of material objects--putting them right--is a small gesture toward this goal of reunification. This idea is sometimes expressed as "God in everything" (which I acknowledge) but I'm usually more aware of this faith as a melancholic longing for union that arises from the Original Separation. My faith has been strengthened and clarified by reading, at one time or another, the works of Hazrat Inayat Khan, Dane Rudyhar, Teilhard de Chardin, Dhyani Ywahoo and the Urantia Book.

As to a microphone being more than the sum of its parts. If one accepts the idea on faith that the materials in a microphone are divine, and have been previously acted upon by the hand and mind of its designers and builders, and further can be organized to be in more perfect union, than one can see how the union of parts is itself a distinct identity--a meta form. The degree to which this meta form is manifested is correlated to the degree of consciousness humans brought to their work in the design, building and modding of the microphones.

AD: So as I see it, you're basically describing microphone design, development and manufacturing processes as refinements of a divine spirit which is in all things. Your role in all of this is to clarify what's already there. You put this into practice by "helping" the microphone reach its fullest potential. Is that right?

MJ: I'm comfortable with that playback.

AD: On your webpage, you explain in some detail about the City of Tula, its heritage and the Oktava factory there. Is it just Oktava mics? Are there other brands of microphones worthy of re-development? In your mind, what separates the sheep from the goats?

MJ: Well, to follow on the "more than the sum of parts" idea from above I believe that Tula and its people, because of their particular history and actions leave a certain psychic imprint on Oktava microphones that is in part responsible for their sound. There is a psychic confluence of 800 years of weapon's related metallurgy and a simultaneous desire for peaceful pleasures of tea (Tula, home of the Samovar) and spice cookies. At a practical level, we're talking about an electronics factory that has been making transducers since 1927, so that more recent history gets poured into their products as well.

I don't know if there are other brands of mics worthy of re-development. I'm a bit myopic here in that the Oktava experience has been very deep and rich for me and I haven't felt a need to look to greener pastures. There are a few individual mics that are stand out as mod candidates from other manufacturers, but an across-the-board brand that excites me and I feel is worthy of follow on re-development? I personally don't see one right now that is right for me.

AD: Are there other "Tulas" in the world? Do you see hope for other "future classics?"

MJ: Objectively, it would seen that the possibility exists. I would look in geographic areas that have a long tradition of near-alchemical work--populations who have been involved in the transmutation of materials form one form to another for a long time. Cultures where brass, bronze and iron bells are plentiful as well as a more recent interest in 20th century electronics. Somewhere in Japan and China perhaps? Speaking of China, once these manufacturers go beyond copying Neumann capsule designs and connect with their own psychic pasts then they may develop products that people respond to with the kind of affection that has been directed toward Oktava's mics.

AD: A number of companies are operating in Russia making musical gear--Sovtek, for example. It seems as though price point isn't the only issue--that there's something special about the gear itself. At the same time, I've met a number of people who lived in what was the USSR, and they all seem to view Soviet-era technology with an equal mix of admiration and disdain. What is it about Soviet-era tech that draws such varied opinions? What is it that draws Westerners to this stuff?

MJ: Well the Soviet era is pretty universally regarded as a time of great suffering for millions of people. The resultant polaratization of the world into two basic political camps wasted countless lives and transmuted the precious resources of the earth into tools of destruction. I suppose there may have been, in the early of years of Russian product availability in the West, a sort of transgressive or subversive attitude accompanying their use that resonated with the punk/DIY aesthetic. But for me, working with Soviet-ere tech is a small scale "swords into plowshares" activity.
Old 31st December 2009
  #671
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Well, looks like I’ve missed plenty. Lots of dedicated folks pitching in!

All you “classic design” freaks out there let me hear you say “WOO“.

Hellooo …

Anybody?



When I think of a microphone I think of an instrument that speaks "classic, vintage, simple, elegance", etc., that‘s just me. Obviously a contemporary styling seems to be the most popular. There‘s no right or wrong ….

Before I move past my original idea I’ll make a couple of comments about what I feel were its strengths, strengths not exclusive to a particular design IMO. I had sent Michael some variations of the “rangers badge” that weren’t posted online, some with a “J” that had a more contemporary feel, but not so much as to clash with the classic look. That “J” also slightly resembled the silhouette of an MK 012, a subtle (very subtle) nod to Michael’s roots. Lastly, as I was working with this new, more contemporary “J”, I noticed a quality about it that kept making me want to touch it on my screen. Odd, yes indeed. It may just be me, but I felt this may be a phenomenon that could make a nicely jeweled badge very engaging for the viewer. Enough about me and my ideas, what do you think about me?

I have looked over all the ideas posted, I’ll give my humble opinions regarding the ones that I liked for whatever reason. Since I am covering about 8-9 pages of posts I’ll refer to designs by post number rather than go copy/paste crazy.

General Comments - As chris319 and others mentioned, Sinocelt is a trooper! Lots of ideas and work! I do agree with vonrichter also about “Joly”, I think it is ultimately what users will refer to MJM products as. I understand that legal concerns may come into play also.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/4905089-post450.html
Post #450 - (Sinocelt) - I still like how elegant and original that is, very unique. Contrast is a challenge here, as well as the “pick at the edge of the blob” factor in badge form … Also, I'd be curious who the people behind the "C" are, or maybe it is there to quickly fill the space.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/4926540-post545.html
Post # 545 - I like what this has evolved to, comments below.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/4933575-post601.html
Post # 601 - (MemphisIndie) - I thought this has good potential, just 3 initials M-J-M, with the right typestyle and layering and overlapping I think it could be nice.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/4939002-post668.html
Post # 668 - I like the middle one. More space around the body of the mic though. I like Dave J.’s treatment of this, although the “mic” is less obvious with more space. I think a happy medium would be easy to achieve.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/4939360-post669.html
Post # 669 - As I just mentioned, I think this is very good, my favorite also. The only thing I don’t like so well is the shape, short and wide. I think it might be slightly more challenging to make look good on a mic.

While I agree that a logo needs to look good everywhere, I think that a microphone is a very stark item and the logo is of utmost importance. I’d start there and branch out … I’d be less concerned about how it looked on my checks or on a fax compared to how it looks on the products perhaps in this case.

Happy New Gear!!!
Old 31st December 2009
  #672
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lpkyer's Avatar
 

Can we still send submissions? I'd like to try for sure
Old 31st December 2009
  #673
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Sure. Just post it here. Either stick with the direction things are going or start a new path, your call!
Old 1st January 2010
  #674
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OK, some different ones:
Not much different, but, I'm working within the context of a simple badge. Even has a HAMMER and sickle. heh
Attached Thumbnails
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-joly-logo-all.jpg  
Old 1st January 2010
  #675
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Okay, how about this (I like the color and shadows a lot!) with the word microphones (in blue lettering) under it near the base of the mics:




with this in the midddle of the mics (in the same color):


FWIW, personally, I agree with.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post
I think the "microphones" can be left out, because it is already present graphically
Again, I REALLY totally dig the blue-ish logo/color, I think Mr. Celt has something here.

Oh, thanks for the spinning guitar Sin (Can I call you Sin?)......
....I just now got over my vertigo......
Old 1st January 2010
  #676
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Need to TOUCH!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drp audio View Post
Lastly, as I was working with this new, more contemporary “J”, I noticed a quality about it that kept making me want to touch it on my screen.
I hear you!! That tactile illusion is what drives me when I go fromto.

In that respect, I especially like howcame out. It makes me long to let my fingers travel at the frontier between the smooth of the wood and the subtle roughness of the bronze.

Show us what you've been working on!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MadGuitrst View Post
Again, I REALLY totally dig the blue-ish logo/color, I think Mr. Celt has something here.
The "glass" rendering is just that: a rendering. Not the logo itself. It's just an example of what can be done with the simple black-and-white logo. In the present case, I took this forum's colors as an inspiration, to come with with something that I thought Michael may want to use in his signature (if the logo itself is chosen, obviously).


Quote:
Originally Posted by MadGuitrst View Post
Oh, thanks for the spinning guitar Sin (Can I call you Sin?)......
....I just now got over my vertigo......
Sin works, and you're welcome. But you only think you're over your vertigo. In fact, you've fallen into another dimension...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Happy New Year to everybody in East!
Happy New Year... from the FUTURE!

Sorry guys, but I gotta tell you: 2010 doesn't feel very different from 2009.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
As a way of closing out 2009 and ringing in 2010 I'd like to offer this excerpt of an interview I did in Feb 2008 with Andrew Delapp of Looming Pylon.
A very good idea. I think some of the logos have been pretty... off... because the designers didn't know how you felt about your own mikes. I had sort of an unfair advantage in that respect because of the emails we exchanged a few months ago, and because I heard you play the flute. I knew, at the very least, that the most "in your face" ideas had to be avoided.
Old 1st January 2010
  #677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post
In fact, you've fallen into another dimension...
Why, thanks Sin.

But hey, try my idea about combining your works of art......just for kicks - I bet it works great.
Old 1st January 2010
  #678
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Don't forget that all these fancy colors and textures will be reduced to black and white when printed on an invoice or other company stationery.
Old 1st January 2010
  #679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stw View Post
if you look carefully, you'll see that the head of the mic is not centered in the little arch (is that correct english?)
Hm, if you're talking about the glass rendering, it's an effect of the texture, light and perspective. If you're talking about the actual black-and-white logo, then the dot is in the exact middle of the circle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MadGuitrst View Post
Why, thanks Sin.

But hey, try my idea about combining your works of art......just for kicks - I bet it works great.
Here it is:


But Chris is right:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris319 View Post
Don't forget that all these fancy colors and textures will be reduced to black and white when printed on an invoice or other company stationery.
Old 1st January 2010
  #680
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There ya go....now just put it on a microphone (and put the word Microphones in blue letters under Michael Joly....with the mic graphic going lower and being the i in Microphone - it will be offset but give balance to the whole).

Folks, we've got a winner!




Quote:
But Chris is right:
That's like saying to make every musical instrument black and white because all paperwork related to it is in black and white. So..........?
Old 1st January 2010
  #681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadGuitrst View Post
There ya go....now just put it on a microphone (and put the word Microphones in blue letters under Michael Joly).
Folks, we've got a winner!
Ah ah, thanks. But I don't think a same company can have two logos, which is what it would amount to here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadGuitrst View Post
That's like saying to make every musical instrument black and white because all paperwork related to it is in black and white. So..........?
What Chris meant is that this "glass" logo may look good on a screen (which is what it was designed for) but not as good when printed in black on white -- or when engraved on a microphone.
Old 1st January 2010
  #682
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wow. that blue treatment is special.

Back from New Year's Eve dinner and now to watch "It might get loud"!

happy etc from Springfield, M
Old 1st January 2010
  #683
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For what it's worth, I've got two favorites among my own creations:




I favor them for how they look, but each also has practical advantages (and, yes, concomitant disadvantages).
  • The icon logo is very compact: it can be used easily and clearly even when space is scarce. Heck, it could even serve as a hallmark! Or as a avatar; I've changed mine to demonstrate. Icon logos have the best chance of looking good on a microphone.
  • The spelled logo has the advantage of more immediately associating the product with Michael's name. In my opinion, it looks quite a lot better without microphones added at the bottom, which (1) would force me to cut out the bottom tip of the microphone symbol, making it less clearly a microphone as well as less pleasant to the eye, and (2) would prevent the logo from being printed as small as it otherwise could (if microphones is half the size of Michael Joly, it means that the logo's minimum legible size is now twice as big as it could be). Moreover, the microphone symbol (without its bottom tip cut off) is clear enough that adding microphones can be construed as redundant, if indeed clearer. But think about it: if the logo is engraved on a microphone, we know what it is; and if it is printed on a letterhead, for instance, the full name of the company will also be printed on the same page, if only as part of the address.
Click on the logo in my signature:
Old 1st January 2010
  #684
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Just an opinion about the logo for the MJ microphones:

Many of the suggested logos are great but they are too large, especially on a SDC, it would look silly IMO.

Use the logo where space permits it, in marketing, not on the mic itself. Or make a smaller, simpler logo. Less is more, unless you are Neumann, bling bling. But that's just my opinion of course.
Old 1st January 2010
  #685
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I've hesitated to bring this up, because I love Sinocelts work so much. but I have been wondering how the hell am I going to get this on an SDC pencil mic. Meryl says "don't worry, just wrap it around the body". I'll try this tomorrow - on the first day of 2010 infused with bloody mary's. good day all. M
Old 1st January 2010
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
I've hesitated to bring this up, because I love Sinocelts work so much. but I have been wondering how the hell am I going to get this on an SDC pencil mic. Meryl says "don't worry, just wrap it around the body". I'll try this tomorrow - on the first day of 2010 infused with bloody mary's. good day all. M
You can also try to align microphone and logo, and see what looks best. But yes, as mentioned in my precedent post, icon logos are easier to place on all kinds of items.

Old 1st January 2010
  #687
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It is really hard to get away from the top image in post 682. that thing is so powerful, yet benign. It spins, but not in a threatening way because it is centered. The blue is precise and not megalomaniacal like black. That particular specimen is perfect, it cannot be improved.

but your post directly above answers my question how "Michael i Joly" logo would work placed on an SDC along the length of the body. Works just fine i think - and hasn't been done before as far as i know. the usual treatment is vertically descending letters "Neumann" or "Royer" for example.

How can I have both of these?
Old 1st January 2010
  #688
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[QUOTE=MadGuitrst;4941229]





Does anyone else see this as "HJ" instead of "MJ"?



Old 1st January 2010
  #689
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no. I read it as "HU". though more subtly than when presented in black. btw - as i mentioned before - I'm totally cool with HU for its metaphysical conotations (heaven / earth circuit). And I like the slight ambiguity of the optical flip - is it "MJ" or is it "HU"?

Meryl and I totally enjoyed "It might get loud" tonight btw.
Old 1st January 2010
  #690
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Sinocelt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
It is really hard to get away from the top image in post 682. that thing is so powerful, yet benign. It spins, but not in a threatening way because it is centered. The blue is precise and not megalomaniacal like black. That particular specimen is perfect, it cannot be improved.
Coincidentally, that's what God said when I was born.

Joking (?) apart, remember that black isn't the color of the logo: the logo can be of any color -- or none, if simply engraved. While your official logo will be given a color, and this color can be blue, it will be a plain color, not the subtle rendering I've been showing off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
but your post directly above answers my question how "Michael i Joly" logo would work placed on an SDC along the length of the body. Works just fine i think - and hasn't been done before as far as i know. the usual treatment is vertically descending letters "Neumann" or "Royer" for example.

How can I have both of these?
Quite easily, by making different choices in parallel universes.
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