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China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts Condenser Microphones
Old 27th November 2009
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Wheeler View Post
I even wouldn't send a e-mail to China.
and what is that supposed to mean?
Old 27th November 2009
  #32
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Thanks again for all the caveats about doing business in China, I hear you all and appreciate the concern. Btw - Ron Wheeler, you're welcome to contribute here. But perhaps you could try to do so in a way that offers constructive critique rather than oblique disparagement.

Re - On the ground inspection in China: I'm very aware of the the need for QC as I grow into new product manufacturing in addition to my aftermarket service business. My reputation has been built on the quality of the results clients experience and the personable client experience they have with Meryl and me. So I will continue to deliver those experiences.

Because we're a small company with finite resources, I looked long and hard for the right people to do business with in China. I spent a long time "probing" the willingness of prospective companies to meet my QC requirements - long before even placing an order for samples. During the course of winnowing out the contenders I have developed a very good and trusting relationship with my vendor. I have just received the first shipment of MJE-K47H capsule head parts (to be assembled and tested by me) - 10 months of R&D and three rounds of samples after choosing this vendor, so I'm not rushing into things. By way of contrast, I know of a number of "re-branders" who simply placed an opening order for the Minimum Order Quantity without ever visiting China or having a single face-to-face meeting with a potential vendor.

But beyond just trust - this relationship has moved forward with the vendor having significant "skin in the game" as we say - without going into details, this vendor knows it is in their best interest to manufacture the highest quality product. This is not a simple vendor / buyer relationship but a partnership with mutual benefits to be realized only with both sides delivering the value agreed upon. But yes, I have had discussions with an independent agent who could be my eyes on the ground.

But there is a bigger issue - I have a world view that assumes the best of people unless proven otherwise. I believe an open, trusting and honest approach to potential business associates elicits a similar emotional response - in parties with whom I would want to work with. There is an "emotional intelligence resonance" that is palpable when one finds the right associates to work with (and is missing when one meets the wrong people).

Believe me, I did not feel this resonance with most of the companies I interviewed. But I trust my vendor as I trust my brothers, in fact, my associates and I call each other "brother". That is the kind of business relationship I look for and always try to see "brother" - rather than "other".
Attached Thumbnails
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-mic_brothers.jpg  
Old 27th November 2009
  #33
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Blewgrass's Avatar
 

It's fascinating to view the pictures and read your accounts. For the casual observer here, you can see that China is in a manufacturing boom cycle. There are companies (that manufacture products) in the US that are thriving as well (from top to bottom) but it seems more the exception than the rule.

I'm guessing that the guy who says he won't send an email to China is stating this on a Chinese made computer, and has a house full of Chinese products (got a pair of tennis shoes, clothes, coffee maker?).

I think a judge of a society is to look at the entry level manufacturing worker and see how they live.. medical, pay, etc.

... anyway Mike, great stuff and thanks for posting. It's obvious that the US-China business partnerships are not going anywhere soon, and this is the "new" method that virtually all of the electronics, music gear, and computer equipment is made and presented. NAMM is probably dominated by 75% Chinese products too.

Cool mics too!
Old 27th November 2009
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Wheeler View Post
I even wouldn't send a e-mail to China.
Maybe Ron Wheeler didn't see my last post. WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?
Old 27th November 2009
  #35
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Mike

I totally love the direction you are going and the way you conduct business. If you found some good partners to work with in China that you can trust, hold on to those bonds. Its great you are taking your time and doing it right....

XIONG DI

jeff
Old 27th November 2009
  #36
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

As offensive as that comment was to you, (and I apologize for it happening in a thread I started) I find its better to either ignore a comment like that or ask the commenter to offer clear and constructive criticism instead.

While I love a vigorous debate, I'm determined to keep this thread from devolving into yet another round of China-bashing and will ask once again if anyone here has the urge to engage in that kind of talk to please start your own thread in the Moan Zone here at Gearslutz.
Old 27th November 2009
  #37
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all good. no need to be sorry. ignorance just ticks me off...
Old 27th November 2009
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Ron Wheeler, you're welcome to contribute here. But perhaps you could try to do so in a way that offers constructive critique rather than oblique disparagement.


We (Americans and Europeans) are the most stupid people on earth. We send our technology to China for free! Yes for free! Then we lost and still lose our jobs. We (the US) took lots of money from China on credit to pay "their" goods made by Chinese jobs. It's all out of balance. We're far off from a sound 50/50 business.

I refuse to buy any Chinese mic. Not only because of all this also because they are crap compared to "real" Neumann's or any boutique manufacturer like e.g. Royer. They used to produce bad stuff and produce now partially mediocre mics.

People like "finalmix" from Gauge sell crap for $89 and claim to have a equal sounding mic to a real U87. That piece of Sh%§ doesn't even have a output transformer. He sells that stuff to ignoramus taxi members. Duh!

Why are we doin' this? Greed without conscience. Not thinkin' about US/EU jobs for filthy lucre. Congratulations!

We all should really start to think. A mic keeps for a lifetime if we take care.
It's better to spend decent money on great sounding mics made in the US or EU like Brauner or Royer...

Maybe then John Doe gets his job back, can pay his mortgage, feed his kids, get decent health care and can grow old with a 401(k).



Sorry for being so sarcastic but it's the plain truth I do not support.
Old 27th November 2009
  #39
Gear Guru
Theft and Slavery

China copies other peoples designs. This is Theft.
Western companies who participate in this are guilty of theft by association.
Other Western companies who avail of cheap, unionless, rightless, labour, in order to increase profits are guilty of theft also.
They are stealing livelyhoods from their own neighbours.
The long term consequences of this are global, vast, and scary. China pretty much owns the USA already. Who is going to design new technology?
There are great mics designed and made by free humans. e.g. MBHO. Brauner. Other suggestions welcome. Support them, they are the future.
DD
Old 27th November 2009
  #40
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Gentlemen, thank for your opinions.

But I object to the generalizations you use - "China does ...", the "Chinese do...". I'm vehemently opposed to any sort of national or ethnic generalization, I'll call it out when I see it, and will challenge you to cite specific instances where a particular company or individual has acted in ways you describe. I'm not turning a blind eye to the lax man-on-the-street regard for intellectual property rights that occurs when they sell CDs or DVD on the sidewalk but will not let your unsubtaniated generalizations stand unchallenged.

As our long human history has shown, and present conditions still show, nationalistic or ethic scape-goating coupled with an "us vs. them" dichotomy is a very slippery slope that leads downward to the hell of poor human relations rather than upward towards relationships that reflect our better, or ascendant selves.
Old 27th November 2009
  #41
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big country's Avatar
 

mike just want to say that what your doing is great thing
it seems though your opening the windows of where things come
from and it seems they are made in nice place by actual people .

at the same time a little bit jealous as I can remember of
or have heard stories of a thriving US economy backed by manufacturing
for me it makes me nervous when our economy is backed by stock
markets and investments

at the same time its nice to see a country come together
in a great industrial revolution . I guess as an American it reminds
me how important manufacturing and real goods and services
are to the real economy and how much the gambling investments are games
In reality I hope your ventures and ventures like yours dont push
the US economy further into trade debt .

I can understand how you could want to go to china,
it seems though the most happening place for manufacturing its turn key
in many ways .

I hope you have many options and you can wisely choose them
Old 27th November 2009
  #42
Gear Guru
Generalisation

I believe it is quite reasonable to use the term China. What word would you rather see?
I see no purpose in naming any particular culprit, in China or the West. The practice of outsourcing manufacturing is widespread and can hardly be denied. I doubt that we could find any country not involved in some way. I think this 'ethnic' point is a red herring.
Copying is theft. Availing of artificially cheap labour is akin to slavery. If you think this analogy is far fetched, please consider Nike's factories in Burma.
DD
Old 27th November 2009
  #43
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Hey Matt, thanks for the good cheer and advice.

re: US macro economics -

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it again. I believe the way forward for the US economy is to provide products and services that meet levels of need higher up the Maslowian pyramid - valuable creative products & services that raise the human spirit.

Problem is, the US people, through making choices in elected policy-makers, have chosen to divert a huge portion of US GDP into "defense activites" and "financial instruments" (enabled through Bush-era deregulations of financial markets) that do not advance the human condition as do education, health care, renewable energy and affordable / healthy food activities. As a result, the US is not turning out the scientists, engineers, artists and thinkers who could create an economy based on honest intellectual work rather than physical work or dishonest financial shenanigans.

Attempting to regain US manufacturing dominance is backward-looking and is not a strategy to address global competition.
Old 27th November 2009
  #44
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big country's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Hey Matt, thanks for the good cheer and advice.

re: US macro economics -

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it again. I believe the way forward for the US economy is to provide products and services that meet levels of need higher up the Maslowian pyramid - valuable creative products & services that raise the human spirit.

Problem is, the US people, through making choices in elected policy-makers, have chosen to divert a huge portion of US GDP into "defense activites" that do not advance the human condition as do education, health care, renewable energy and affordable / healthy food activities. As a result, the US is not turning out the scientists, engineers, artists and thinkers who could create an economy based on intellectual rather than physical work.

Attempting to regain US manufacturing dominance is backward-looking and is not a strategy to address global competition.
I think its more up to the people to create the economy .

ultimately the herd goes where it wants to go mostly under the direction
of one steer

we are not cattle ...
Old 27th November 2009
  #45
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TurboJets's Avatar
FWIW I feel it's a time when small "upstart" businesses have all the cards stacked against them when you look at the poor economic conditions consumers face and the impossible credit conditions a new business faces. Michael's path has led him to this opportunity right here and right now to expand his business to producing his first "branded" mic and the economic environment absolutely dictates partnering with the most reliable resources in China. "Carpe diem" isn't a phrase that comes with qualification, it's a universal command that often requires blind faith that the steps you take to move forward with your dreams must be taken right now, one step at a time, bravely and boldly with no control over the circumstances. You take the first step and keep moving forward one foot in front of the other despite surrounding conditions, criticisms, possible pitfalls, and fears. The way I see it personally is that Michael has been working his arse off most of his life to get to this moment and it's a monumental accomplishment that represents all of the energy and goodwill he's put out for many years now. Congratulations are in order from all of us that have benefitted from Michaels dedication to his art/science.
Old 27th November 2009
  #46
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turk sanchez's Avatar
Just skimmed over this thread - this looks pretty cool. I am interested to hear some of these mics.
Old 27th November 2009
  #47
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Marik's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post

But I object to the generalizations you use - "China does ...", the "Chinese do...". I'm vehemently opposed to any sort of national or ethnic generalization, I'll call it out when I see it, and will challenge you to cite specific instances where a particular company or individual has acted in ways you describe.
Michael,

It is my understanding you will be using a copy of the K47 in your mics. May I ask if the company you are buying it from pays license to Neumann? Or did the company at least asked Neumann for the permission to manufacture it?

Or does the company, which makes a Royer ribbon copy pays David? Or how to explain that Behringer B5 looked suspiciously close to the SP C4, Brent designed himself? Should I continue?

It is not a generalization (which BTW, I hate myself), but just facts.

Best, M
Old 27th November 2009
  #48
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I believe it is quite reasonable to use the term China. What word would you rather see?...
It really is not reasonable because it is a nationalistic generalization. Remember, our discussion is taking place within the very specific thread-context of my recent business trip to China and the specific experiences I can report on. I've tried to provide concrete and specific examples of my opinions based on my personal experiences.

To answer your question, it is not a question of substituting another "word" - but rather substituting a worldview - "us vs them" buys a world of hurt for all, substituting the possiblity of "win / win" relationships is the world I want to live in.
Old 27th November 2009
  #49
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marik View Post
Michael,

It is my understanding you will be using a copy of the K47 in your mics. May I ask if the company you are buying it from pays license to Neumann? Or did the company at least asked Neumann for the permission to manufacture it?

Or does the company, which makes a Royer ribbon copy pays David? Or how to explain that Behringer B5 looked suspiciously close to the SP C4, Brent designed himself? Should I continue?

It is not a generalization (which BTW, I hate myself), but just facts.

Best, M
Good question Marik. Yes, my capsule is an exact copy (exception being my use of a 3 micron diaphragm) of the now public domain design commonly known as the Neumann K47 capsule.

Regarding Royer copies - I have it on good authority (the actual manager of the Chinese factory) that it was Nady, not the Chinese vendor, who initiated copying of the Royer offset ribbon design (the unique claim in the Royer patent). The Chinese vendor did not even know the "offset ribbon" concept was a patent held by Royer. When Royer discovered the existence of copies Nady was forced to change their design to symmetrical ribbon placement in the magnetic gap and the Chinese vendors no longer offer "offset ribbon" design to other re-branders such as Cascade Microphones.

But as you well know, there is significant public domain "prior art" in existence in both the cardioid condenser and figure eight ribbon mic worlds. This non-proprietary, prior art is the domain in which I am currently working. I'll add value in the form of my own new designs, precise execution, documented performance, affordable pricing and superior, personal customer service.
Old 27th November 2009
  #50
Gear Guru
Red Herring

Michael, again the red herring, distracting from the real issue. Let me restate my points.
Copying is Theft.
Manufacturing in an artificially economic environment takes jobs from the neighbourhood of the Western company doing this.
This activity is not sustainable. Who can afford Research and Development when the results are simply stolen?
This is a destructive, short future activity. I encourage Slutz not to support it.
DD
Old 27th November 2009
  #51
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Gretschman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Wheeler View Post
We (Americans and Europeans) are the most stupid people on earth. We send our technology to China for free! Yes for free! Then we lost and still lose our jobs. We (the US) took lots of money from China on credit to pay "their" goods made by Chinese jobs. It's all out of balance. We're far off from a sound 50/50 business.

I refuse to buy any Chinese mic. Not only because of all this also because they are crap compared to "real" Neumann's or any boutique manufacturer like e.g. Royer. They used to produce bad stuff and produce now partially mediocre mics.

People like "finalmix" from Gauge sell crap for $89 and claim to have a equal sounding mic to a real U87. That piece of Sh%§ doesn't even have a output transformer. He sells that stuff to ignoramus taxi members. Duh!

Why are we doin' this? Greed without conscience. Not thinkin' about US/EU jobs for filthy lucre. Congratulations!

We all should really start to think. A mic keeps for a lifetime if we take care.
It's better to spend decent money on great sounding mics made in the US or EU like Brauner or Royer...

Maybe then John Doe gets his job back, can pay his mortgage, feed his kids, get decent health care and can grow old with a 401(k).



Sorry for being so sarcastic but it's the plain truth I do not support.


Good points , all of them .

I can't recall anyone that I have know , ever say that they bought a Chinese made microphone because it was " Better " than a USA or Euro mic !!
It was always " Cheaper " !!!

I have never seen the price of a vintage Chinese mic sell for 800 % greater value than it's original cost , or even known of a demand for their vintage mic's at all !!

They may not even last long enough to become Vintage ! Ha ! Ha !

They do have a price point which allows people to afford recording gear which
is a good thing .

And , if they would design their own products , and manufacture higher quality
then they would get a lot more respect .


Mike Joly :

Gentlemen, thank for your opinions.

But I object to the generalizations you use - "China does ...", the "Chinese do...". I'm vehemently opposed to any sort of national or ethnic generalization, I'll call it out when I see it, and will challenge you to cite specific instances where a particular company or individual has acted in ways you describe. I'm not turning a blind eye to the lax man-on-the-street regard for intellectual property rights that occurs when they sell CDs or DVD on the sidewalk but will not let your unsubtaniated generalizations stand unchallenged.


And yet , you have not provided anyone with any evidence to support anything that you claim !

If you were truly committed to this Pro Chinese crusade your on , you would have asked that big box venders such as Guitar Center , Sam Ash , Sweetwater and others to provide you with their " return " information on Chinese mic's verses US or Euro mic's in order to support the validity of purchasing Chinese products .

The door swings both ways Sir !

Return policies from the manufacturer , parts and availability of parts , technical
assistance , accessibility to the manufacturer , are all issues here .

I have nothing "for" or "against" Chinese people as a race , so don't try to play the race card or imply that those who disagree with your point are somehow racist .

If you can capitalize from this situation by repairing those products , fine ,
that is truly a valuable service . But , never think that your service defines
a justifiable path for abandoning the makers a quality products .
Old 27th November 2009
  #52
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Michael, again the red herring, distracting from the real issue. Let me restate my points.
Copying is Theft.
Manufacturing in an artificially economic environment takes jobs from the neighborhood of the Western company doing this.
This activity is not sustainable. Who can afford Research and Development when the results are simply stolen?
This is a destructive, short future activity. I encourage Slutz not to support it.
DD
No red herring. A different world view.

Yes copying of someone's intellectual property is theft. As I stated in my response above to Marik, I'm working in the domain of non-proprietary "prior art" that is in the public domain (and creating new industrial, acoustical and electronic designs myself). So in my specific case, there is no theft.

I don't exactly follow your second statement re: "artificially economic environment". But I can tell you the company I am working with is privately-owned, has no state support and pays its workers a pay scale commensurate with their education and skill level - regardless of gender, that is above the 50 percentile for the geographic region they operate their business in. Are wages lower in this area of China than in my neighborhood? Yes. But wages in my neighborhood are significantly lower than that in Boston - 70 miles away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretschman View Post
...I have nothing "for" or "against" Chinese people as a race , so don't try to play the race card or imply that those who disagree with your point are somehow racist...
This is exactly the sort of misrepresentation of my words I won't let stand. I did not imply anyone was racist. I said: "I object to the generalizations you use - "China does ...", the "Chinese do...". I'm vehemently opposed to any sort of national or ethnic generalization"

Use of obviously nationalistic or ethnic generalization does not automatically mean one is a racist. Pulling a Rush Limbaugh "race card" obfuscation on me is an attempt to shift focus, avoid taking responsibility for your own generalized statements and somehow turn me into the "bad guy". Won't work.
Old 27th November 2009
  #53
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illacov's Avatar
 

If a design is public domain, meaning its free for anyone to reuse at that point, then where is the theft?

Public domain works, designs, schematics belong to who?

If they belong to everyone then how can theft be possible.

I fail to see how we can proclaim buy American and yet consistently use EUROPEAN microphones as if that is a much more reasonable alternative.

Neumann is no more American than Neve. Get over it.

So what are we supporting then? If we ignore the hypocrisy, then theres a few points of interest.

The Chinese are obviously Chinese in appearance.

They are communist.

They are willing to do what others would not or have not for a myriad of reasons.


The fact remains that short of using the R word, it kind of throws me that people can support a German company but not a Chinese one.

If we are going to play the nationalist card, then no more foreign anything would be more appropriate, not just CERTAIN foreign things.

Like no more Lager, sheesh no more Heineken or Budweiser??
No more Karate or Kung Fu schools. OOPS no more UFC.
No more Toyota, Honda, BMW, Audi, Volve etc....
No more Chinese Food. (DAMMIT!!)

its ridiculous....get with the program.

i won't even bother dragging this post any further. Michael I envy your trip and one day hope to do the same. I can remember as a 7 year old that ANYTHING Asian, was completely in vogue in the 80s. Now things have gotten wacky.

I'm typing this from a foreign made laptop while I transfer session files to a hitachi 1tb hard drive and sip on a soda from the Dominican Republic.

Michael, do you know what the thread size is on the MJ LDC k47 adapter? Is there a chance of a step up ring being crafted? The MXL 993 is a wonderful platform for a tube circuit. It deserves the same flexibility you're offering to the 603s and 991s.

Peace
Illumination
Old 27th November 2009
  #54
Gear Guru
Pedantic excuses

I believe Neumann, AKG, Shure, EV, and others are suffering badly from the theft of their old designs. The fact that some of these designs may be 'legally' in the public domain is yet another red herring. Splitting hairs. It is morally theft and you know it.
Buying from these originating manufacturers would support R and D, and thus guarantee future products.
What does buying copies achieve?
By 'artificial economy' I mean using relatively extremely cheap labour, incredible distances away, to replace local jobs. Again you know exactly what I mean.
When those far away countries become rich, when oil becomes realistically priced, the local designers will be gone.
Not a great result surely?
DD
Old 27th November 2009
  #55
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

As Illacov points out, once a design has passed into the public domain it is available for use - there is no theft involved in such cases. To follow your "morality" argument to its conclusion - all songwriters should be paying the first cat who invented the "F C G" chord progression a royalty to this day. Intellectual property laws are written in such a way as to allow exclusive but time-limited use of novel designs so the creators of those design can benefit financially from them. Creators of original designs accept the "morality" of this reality - you do not? Allowing such designs to flow into the public domain after expiration of the exclusive-use period provides an affordable platform for further innovation and yes, new proprietary and protected works.

re: "cheap foreign labor" - lets get specific here. Near the top of this thread I stated I started down my road to manufacturing by trying to get local machine shops interested in my project. The did not want to take it on because they're used to sucking on the tit of the US Defense Department and can't compete on the basis of their own value-add as determined by the world market - and not some artificially inflated value established by a consortium of contractors and good-old boys in good standing with the US Department of Defense.

Talk about an "artifically supported economy" - it could be argued that US tax-payer support (through their elected officials) of war-making industries provides some companies with unfair support while sucking support away from alternative energy development, universal health care, high milage efficiency vehicles and locally grown "slow food" movements etc.
Old 27th November 2009
  #56
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Mark Kaufman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I believe Neumann, AKG, Shure, EV, and others are suffering badly from the theft of their old designs. The fact that some of these designs may be 'legally' in the public domain is yet another red herring. Splitting hairs. It is morally theft and you know it.
I respect your opinion, but not your insistence that others view use of public domain works as theft. That's like insisting on paying money to a descendant of Beethoven for using a phrase from the Moonlight Sonata, or that a portion of all turntable sales must eventually go to Edison. Simply not true.
Old 27th November 2009
  #57
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Gretschman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
No red herring. A different world view.

This is exactly the sort of misrepresentation of my words I won't let stand. I did not imply anyone was racist. I said: "I object to the generalizations you use - "China does ...", the "Chinese do...". I'm vehemently opposed to any sort of national or ethnic generalization"

Use of obviously nationalistic or ethnic generalization does not automatically mean one is a racist. Pulling a Rush Limbaugh "race card" obfuscation on me is an attempt to shift focus, avoid taking responsibility for your own generalized statements and somehow turn me into the "bad guy". Won't work.
Those are your words , and yes they do contain some finger pointing by you and the air of a racist connotation to them. Calling me Rush Limbaugh and accusing me of
generalizations , shifting focus ect. , does not validate anything on your part , does it ?

As I said in my last post , you know , the one with valid points that you skipped ,
YOU have NOT provided ANY evidence to support The purchase of Chinese Microphones
other than price . YET , you accuse others of generalizing and being non specific .
Old 27th November 2009
  #58
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Quote:
If they belong to everyone then how can theft be possible.
Here is a scenario,
A head designer leaves a major company after he fails to be promoted to a managment possition or just retaiers.
Some time later The designer wonders into an expo and meets people with money.
They found out about his history and bing,light bulb lights above their heads.
He gets paid tons of money ,gets a nice job title and bring the information he has collected offer the years with him.
Since he now work and live in a company which doesnt follow international pattent laws they can sell what ever they want.
Years later he retaiers and the company decides to sell her(!) designs to other manufacturers in the country and this way knowhow becomes "unpattented"

So do I have a future as a story teller? heh


Btw communism is not bad if you put an honest govermet infront of it,take away the exploitation and put the main focus on education and wellfair not on security,weapon research and making a military state. it doesnt have to be evil but people tend to make it so. Men can never be equal.


Quote:
So in my specific case, there is no theft going on.
You are right,
The theft has already been done years ago. Companies have accepeted the fact that they cannot do anything against it which resulted in the "free" status it now holds. dont you think?


Quote:
The did not want to take it on because they're used to sucking on the tit of the US Defense Department and can't compete on the basis of their own value-add as determined by the world market - and not some artificially inflated value established by a consortium of contractors and good-old boys in good standing with the US Department of Defense.
Same thing exists in israel, thats why countries with an aconomy which is largly based on defence & military need wars (they may not want them though), it generates money. If the war in iraq would have worked as it was planned by the bush goverment and the US economy would boom as it was suppose to everyone would have supported it.
Old 27th November 2009
  #59
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Marik's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I believe Neumann, AKG, Shure, EV, and others are suffering badly from the theft of their old designs. The fact that some of these designs may be 'legally' in the public domain is yet another red herring. Splitting hairs. It is morally theft and you know it.
I agree. Michael, you know very well Neumann spent countless hours and lots of R&D money to find that critical combination of "blind" and "through" holes and their exact size. After that somebody "smart" comes and just copies it, without spending a penny for any R&D. Somehow it just does not sound right... at least on a moral level. There is very big distinction between an idea and the product. Indeed, the idea is a public domain. However the PRODUCT (i.e. something what one sells for profit) is Neumann's property. Exact copying it (or even with some minor modifications) in my book it IS A THEFT. In any case, my student's father is a patent and copyright lawyer. I will talk to him about this issue just to see if legally it is still a theft.

By "Royer copy" I did not mean the offset ribbon (BTW, we already had a discussion about it), but actual exact copy--i.e. ACM3, RM3, and such.

Best, M
Old 27th November 2009
  #60
Gear Maniac
 
Gebo's Avatar
 

Quote:
By 'artificial economy' I mean using relatively extremely cheap labour, incredible distances away, to replace local jobs. Again you know exactly what I mean.
When those far away countries become rich, when oil becomes realistically priced, the local designers will be gone.
Not a great result surely?
DD
The internal parts of the computer you are using to post on this message board were all made in this "artifical economy".
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