The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts Condenser Microphones
Old 9th December 2009
  #391
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_z View Post
Ahem... inexpensive would be the proper term here. (Behringer is cheap) heh But I do agree with your point.
Ahem... "surprisingly affordable" would be the proper term.
[quote]
Old 9th December 2009
  #392
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_z View Post
...As a student of the Oud, I can (and must) appreciate non-tempered tuning of modes. I have to say, the Maqam Rast is one of the most beautiful sonorities I have ever heard, as it involves two half-flats (equivalent to the ionian mode with degrees 3 and 7 as half-flats) . I think western scales were born out of this, as 'scales' actually came from seven modes. I love it all though!
Oh my. Thanks so much for the link to that awesome Arabic music site. I listened to a few of the maqam demos and pieces - must...not...get...distrated...

Let me offer a little story about microtones. Around 1990 I was studying the writings of Dane Rudhyar and Hazrat Inayat Khan and got very interested in the Sacred ratios - 1:1, 2:1 etc. The cosmology behind these ratios is much too involved to go into here so I'll just jump to point.

I set up an oscilloscope in X-Y mode and fed a constant amplitude sine wave of 1kHz into the X input. Then, I connected a variable frequency oscillator to the Y input. Now when the two frequencies are the same, a perfect circle pattern is produced, a ratio of 2:1 produces the "infinity symbol", 3:2 produces an open loop...and so on. The major intervals of 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th produce the simplest visual patterns (also known as "Lissajou patterns) But it was fascinating to discover there are other clearly differentiated patterns that are just slightly flat and sharp of the central perfect interval ratios. I think I counted 48 identifiable pitches in an octave. On slow days in the lab I used to play microtonal melodies with a variable pitch oscillator using only the perfect fifth as the anchor note and the two flanking "flat fifths and sharp fifths" - all played against the tonic sine wave as a pitch reference drone. On nice a nice windy Spring day I would open my window a crack, get a nice clear whistle going as a pitch drone, then improvise microtonal melodies around the whistling of the window. The music of nature is not equal-tempered, it follows the Creators numbers, not Western man's.

A study of the cosmology behind these Sacred intervals and their practice offers the diligent student a lifetime of discoveries and insight into the nature of observable creation.

As a side bar - there are some of us who believe the bastardization of Sacred intervals into mechanical "equal temperment" intervals is the basis of the schism between East and West that is being so dramatically played out in the "global war on terror" today. Just as Sound begat Creation, modal or perfectly intoned "non-harmonic" music can create a way forward toward a peaceful world by the shear power of these perfect intervals - if repetitiously intoned by enough people or sound making objects for a long time.
Old 9th December 2009
  #393
Gear Maniac
 
low_z's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Ahem... "surprisingly affordable" would be the proper term.
Agreed
Old 9th December 2009
  #394
Gear Maniac
 
low_z's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Oh my. Thanks so much for the link to that awesome Arabic music site. I listened to a few of the maqam demos and pieces - must...not...get...distrated...

Let me offer a little story about microtones. Around 1990 I was studying the writings of Dane Rudhyar and Hazrat Inayat Khan and got very interested in the Sacred ratios - 1:1, 2:1 etc. The cosmology behind these ratios is much too involved to go into here so I'll just jump to point.

I set up an oscilloscope in X-Y mode and fed a constant amplitude sine wave of 1kHz into the X input. Then, I connected a variable frequency oscillator to the Y input. Now when the two frequencies are the same, a perfect circle pattern is produced, a ratio of 2:1 produces the "infinity symbol", 3:2 produces and open loop...and so on. The major intervals of 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th produce the simplest visual patterns (also known as "Lissajou patterns) But what was fascinating to discover that there are other clearly differentiated patterns that are just slightly flat and sharp of the central perfect interval ratio. On slow days in the lab I used to play microtonal melodies with a variable pitch oscillator using only the perfect fifth as the anchor note and the two flanking "flat fifths and sharp fifths" - all played against the tonic sine wave as a pitch reference drone.

A study of the cosmology behind these Sacred intervals and their practice offers the diligent student a lifetime of discoveries and insight into the nature of creation.
Wow, that's really cool! I love geometric patterns in nature. It's like a self-proving truth of divinity or something. What's also interesting to note (and it is explained on Maqamworld), is that there are different degrees of 'half-flat' and 'half-sharp.' For example, the e-half-flat (or E1/2b) in Rast on C is tuned slightly sharper than the E1/2b in Bayati on D, so as to function more as a leading tone than a flattened mode degree 2.

Rast on C: C D E1/2b F G A B1/2b

Bayati on D: D E1/2b F G A B (or B1/2b) C

I would be interested in seeing the different patterns these four half-flats create respective to the mode root notes. Sorry to distract!
Old 9th December 2009
  #395
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_z View Post
...What's also interesting to note (and it is explained on Maqamworld), is that there are different degrees of 'half-flat' and 'half-sharp.' For example, the e-half-flat (or E1/2b) in Rast on C is tuned slightly sharper than the E1/2b in Bayati on D, so as to function more as a leading tone than a flattened mode degree 2...
Right. The key to this study is to forget about Western melodic terms and hear the microtones as "functional" notes as you suggest above. Same deal in Hindustani music - tones used to "approach" or "receede" from the main tone.

Now consider the cosmology of this for a second. One could posit that a music with not only a singe "5th" (to name just one interval), but a family of notes clustered around "the 5th" - each one of them having a special functional relationship to "the 5th" - is going to be able to elicit much finer degrees of emotional nuance then a music that does not acknowledge these microtones and their functional relationships - which are in fact sound-metaphors for aspects of human relationships (well actually I believe human relationships are formed by the intervals not the other way around). I think anyone who has ever shed tears of joy brought on by the singing of Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan knows what I'm talking about.

Extrapolate a single Maqum played, or single Rag sung into a worldwide movement of perfect interval sound - the strife ridden world we now know would end.

Back to the bench for me dudes...
Old 11th December 2009
  #396
Quote:
Originally Posted by drp audio View Post
Congratulations Michael!! Best of luck to you! (And get some sleep for goodness sake ...)

I am saving to get a couple of Oktava 012 mics, hope you are still available to mod them for me yourself in the future. (Unless you have a strong equivalent to the 012 in your MJE line.)

I would like to throw my design hat into the ring. Samples are free, if you use anything I show and want to give props back to me, then sweet! This is obviously a variation of what you are working on already...

Aside from the Oktavas on my xmas list, my heart is nagging me for a tube mic, any tube mics in the works for MJE?

Attachment 147577

Attachment 147578
+100!
Old 11th December 2009
  #397
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

I'd say! Gearslut drp audio and my brother Dave are collaborating on the logo / badge design.
Old 11th December 2009
  #398
Lives for gear
 
mingustoo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Oh my. Thanks so much for the link to that awesome Arabic music site. I listened to a few of the maqam demos and pieces - must...not...get...distrated...

Let me offer a little story about microtones. Around 1990 I was studying the writings of Dane Rudhyar and Hazrat Inayat Khan and got very interested in the Sacred ratios - 1:1, 2:1 etc. The cosmology behind these ratios is much too involved to go into here so I'll just jump to point.

I set up an oscilloscope in X-Y mode and fed a constant amplitude sine wave of 1kHz into the X input. Then, I connected a variable frequency oscillator to the Y input. Now when the two frequencies are the same, a perfect circle pattern is produced, a ratio of 2:1 produces the "infinity symbol", 3:2 produces an open loop...and so on. The major intervals of 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th produce the simplest visual patterns (also known as "Lissajou patterns) But it was fascinating to discover there are other clearly differentiated patterns that are just slightly flat and sharp of the central perfect interval ratios. I think I counted 48 identifiable pitches in an octave. On slow days in the lab I used to play microtonal melodies with a variable pitch oscillator using only the perfect fifth as the anchor note and the two flanking "flat fifths and sharp fifths" - all played against the tonic sine wave as a pitch reference drone. On nice a nice windy Spring day I would open my window a crack, get a nice clear whistle going as a pitch drone, then improvise microtonal melodies around the whistling of the window. The music of nature is not equal-tempered, it follows the Creators numbers, not Western man's.

A study of the cosmology behind these Sacred intervals and their practice offers the diligent student a lifetime of discoveries and insight into the nature of observable creation.

As a side bar - there are some of us who believe the bastardization of Sacred intervals into mechanical "equal temperment" intervals is the basis of the schism between East and West that is being so dramatically played out in the "global war on terror" today. Just as Sound begat Creation, modal or perfectly intoned "non-harmonic" music can create a way forward toward a peaceful world by the shear power of these perfect intervals - if repetitiously intoned by enough people or sound making objects for a long time.

a couple years a go in an experimental band, my friend was using a shruti (sp) machine ( just a droning tone you can move up or down). Actually he had two and was manipulating them while the bass and drums were playing. At one point he hit on a certain pair of clashing notes and left it there for about 30 seconds. I swear, everyone at the ( outdoor) concert stopped talking and just froze until he moved off these notes, and then they resumed talking and ignoring the weirdo band. It was like a hypnotising pitch.

Last edited by mingustoo; 11th December 2009 at 07:42 AM.. Reason: spelling
Old 11th December 2009
  #399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Right. The key to this study is to forget about Western melodic terms and hear the microtones as "functional" notes as you suggest above. Same deal in Hindustani music - tones used to "approach" or "receede" from the main tone.

Now consider the cosmology of this for a second. One could posit that a music with not only a singe "5th" (to name just one interval), but a family of notes clustered around "the 5th" - each one of them having a special functional relationship to "the 5th" - is going to be able to elicit much finer degrees of emotional nuance then a music that does not acknowledge these microtones and their functional relationships - which are in fact sound-metaphors for aspects of human relationships (well actually I believe human relationships are formed by the intervals not the other way around). I think anyone who has ever shed tears of joy brought on by the singing of Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan knows what I'm talking about.

Extrapolate a single Maqum played, or single Rag sung into a worldwide movement of perfect interval sound - the strife ridden world we now know would end.

Back to the bench for me dudes...
Then when you think of this in the context of Autotune.......... the destroyer of soul..........
Old 11th December 2009
  #400
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

I love it! A couple of perfectly timed "builds", one from the East and one from the West. Both hit the same nail on the head - the power of sound to create new emotional experiences or produce lockstep submission.

Here's an over-simplication and probably good fodder for debate - the way out of Western "music business" malaise is to simply increase emotional content through microtonal information and reduce, as much as possible, all quantized parameters, especially tonal information.
Old 12th December 2009
  #401
Gear Maniac
 
mprewett's Avatar
 

Oh man, this thread is hefty!

Kudos to everyone for somehow managing to keep this thread on the civil end.

Mr. Joly, can I hold onto any hope that there will be omni-pattern mics in your new line?

How about a binaural rig? That seems like it might be up your philosophical alley. Although, maybe not so much consumer demand for that.

I love reading all this and learning more about microphone philosophy, research, building, manufacturing... Mr. Joly, you seem to talk about this stuff so much more than other makers/manufacturers, and I for one, really dig that.

Looking forward to reading and hearing more!
Old 12th December 2009
  #402
Lives for gear
 
Suda Badri's Avatar
 

If you make a MJE tetrahedral head I would buy it, even if I had to get 4 SDC's to get use out of it!
Old 13th December 2009
  #403
Gear Maniac
 
low_z's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Then when you think of this in the context of Autotune.......... the destroyer of soul..........
What is really sad is the 'autotune' sound is becoming a sought after sound - around the world. It's like Baywatch.
Old 13th December 2009
  #404
Gear Maniac
 
low_z's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
I love it! A couple of perfectly timed "builds", one from the East and one from the West. Both hit the same nail on the head - the power of sound to create new emotional experiences or produce lockstep submission.

Here's an over-simplication and probably good fodder for debate - the way out of Western "music business" malaise is to simply increase emotional content through microtonal information and reduce, as much as possible, all quantized parameters, especially tonal information.
It is alarming how quickly non-western musical traditions are being lost. Young generations simply have more interest in 'modern sounding' music than the traditional music of their culture. Though this is not always the case, it is becoming increasingly so.

On another note, it is a shame that none of the original recordings of non-western high art music weren't made with high quality MJE microphones! I think ethnomusicologists could benefit from a Sound Devices 702 and a pair of oktavamoded mk012's!heh
Old 13th December 2009
  #405
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mprewett View Post
...can I hold onto any hope that there will be omni-pattern mics in your new line?

How about a binaural rig? That seems like it might be up your philosophical alley. Although, maybe not so much consumer demand for that.

I love reading all this and learning more about microphone philosophy, research, building, manufacturing... Mr. Joly, you seem to talk about this stuff so much more than other makers/manufacturers, and I for one, really dig that.

Looking forward to reading and hearing more!
The LDC tube mic will be multipattern and include an Omni setting. There will be an SDC omni capsule as well.

I'm into binaural as a hobbyist, I stick little Panasonic electret capsules in my ears on occasion, I've got them disguised a headphones. But the stealth / concert market is pretty well served by others so I don't see going in that direction right now.

Thanks for the encouraging words, I've found that talking about mics helps to focus and clarify my thinking and many folks seem to find it an entertaining show ; )
Old 13th December 2009
  #406
"Mics" and " entertaining"... in the same sentence!
Old 13th December 2009
  #407
Lives for gear
 
synthoid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
I've found that talking about mics helps to focus and clarify my thinking and many folks seem to find it an entertaining show
you should try it while eating bugs, that really draws a crowd.

-synthoid
Old 13th December 2009
  #408
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

LOL! Ok, I got into my time machine and travelled to Beijing, June 1990. Those little suckers pack a punch - and there was quite a crowd!
Attached Thumbnails
China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts-mjbug.jpg  
Old 13th December 2009
  #409
Here for the gear
 

thought provoking thread ! i need a set of mics to record my classical guitars and can't afford a pair of Schoeps CMC64s. All i want to know is what sounds better, the Octavamod 012 or the Peluso CEMC6 ?
Old 16th December 2009
  #410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
I love it! A couple of perfectly timed "builds", one from the East and one from the West. Both hit the same nail on the head - the power of sound to create new emotional experiences or produce lockstep submission.

Here's an over-simplication and probably good fodder for debate - the way out of Western "music business" malaise is to simply increase emotional content through microtonal information and reduce, as much as possible, all quantized parameters, especially tonal information.
I've been advocating that for a long time. The tech-heads around here think I'm a grumpy old fart.
Old 16th December 2009
  #411
Quote:
Originally Posted by low_z View Post
It is alarming how quickly non-western musical traditions are being lost. Young generations simply have more interest in 'modern sounding' music than the traditional music of their culture. Though this is not always the case, it is becoming increasingly so.

On another note, it is a shame that none of the original recordings of non-western high art music weren't made with high quality MJE microphones! I think ethnomusicologists could benefit from a Sound Devices 702 and a pair of oktavamoded mk012's!heh
Where is Brian Jones now that we need him?
Old 16th December 2009
  #412
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

yeah. People forget that Brian Jones was way out in front of the "world music" curve with his work with the musicians of the Joujouka. But when you scratch the surface there, you find William Burroughs and Bryon Gysin. Its really ironic that while musicians today have more access to inspirational sources than ever before something like the soul-sucking blasphemy of autotune can exist - and is actually used.
Old 16th December 2009
  #413
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
yeah. People forget that Brian Jones was way out in front of the "world music" curve with his work with the musicians of the Joujouka. But when you scratch the surface there, you find William Burroughs and Bryon Gysin. Its really ironic that while musicians today have more access to inspirational sources than ever before something like the soul-sucking blasphemy of autotune can exist - and is actually used.
Well put, I'm going to collect that in my quote now, if you don't mind.
Old 18th December 2009
  #414
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Back to intellectual property rights and China manufacturing -

I had an interesting visit with my lawyer yesterday. He's not a general business practitioner but rather one of the East-Coast's leading intellectual property lawyers. I thought I'd share some comments he made because they support the opinions of many of the folks here who look at Chinese business practices with a somewhat jaundiced eye.

In a nutshell, my IP lawyer has a world view that goes like this - many business people in the PRC do not share a Western regard for intellectual property rights. Therefore one should assume copying will occur and should take all steps possible to protect oneself: Non Disclosure Agreements, threat of US-based litigation, threat of monetary damages that would result from leaks or copying, one should not work with a single Chinese manufacturer but rather spread out buying among several sources who don't have a "full picture" view of what is being manufactured and do not engage in "co-branding" relationships because "true ownership" of IP becomes ambiguous.

As I said, this advice come from his own worldview based on the experience he has had defending his US clients against lower cost "dumping" of copy cat product - in some cases initiated by his client companys' own vendors!

I have a somewhat different world view and found his advice a big handful of bitter pills to swallow.

My world view is this - people are good, honest and honorable unless their actions prove them to be otherwise. Therefore, I would rather proceed from a position of optimism and good will rather than a position of "fear-of-loss". Besides, I am yet to be convinced there really are substantial legal protections against copying and low-cost dumping (at least at the small scale of microphone manufacturing, as opposed to say large screen HDTV sets).

More and more, I am of the mind that intellectual property creators must engage what I call the "Grateful Dead Defense" - this is the idea that the inherent value of the "Grateful Dead Experience" is a not a recording, but rather a shared communal real time experience. The Dead knew this and practically invented the "taper's section" as a way of encouraging concert-goer recordings that would serve to promulgate the Great Dead "meme" and nurture the live experience generation after generation.

So I guess this is a long winded story about what I see as the necessity for content providers and other intellectual property creators to become more vigorously involved in end-user experiences, customer service, and social networking around their products as a way of creating value beyond designs that are easily copied. Done right, companies should be able to create unique value propositions that can only reside with the originating brand - value propositions (social networks around the products and personalized service) that cannot copied.

Your thoughts?
Old 18th December 2009
  #415
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

You may not mean for me to answer this, but, I do know a bit about it. One of my friends is a panelist attorney for the global talks on this IP rights subject. There are HUGE forces involved.
Here's my take:

You can have both views, as long as you take the advice of the expert you hired, you'll be as OK as you can be, for as long as you can be, and at the same time, you can have the "Grateful" experience.
Dumping IS a Chinese staple on how to take over EVERY market. They aren't "just hungry", they mean to play for keeps, nationalism there is taken to a whole deeper level, it isn't overtly displayed to foreigners, but, it's there.
Your product WILL be copied and WILL be dumped to destroy YOUR competitive edge and take over YOUR market. How long that takes depends on how long you can keep them from putting the puzzle pieces together. They will not be changing long-standing national practices for you.
Your assumption that there is very little you can do being a small manufacturer is 100% correct. Your advisor has given you golden advice.
Once they figure out how to copy your design, they have no intention of letting you have your "Grateful" experience, or to keep your market, they will let you have the "Dead" experience, because, as I said, they mean to play for keeps. They will destroy you on purpose. They will assimilate you, since they will eventually run this planet and they know this.

You will be left with a niche market for the original product that is as small as it may have been in your company's inception and growth inhibited due to more copying and dumping.
They are not stupid, they are not playing around, they do not intend to leave ANY money on the table. Each deal is a tiny cog in a 1000 year wheel that benefits chinese descendants. It's not evil, but, when the communist party tells you what to do, and backs it with force over many years, you learn to do what they say. NO ONE tells them what to do, and they can turn their back on "the rules" on a dime without remorse if it is desirable, convenient, mandated, it won't be a whim.

For you to have the "Grateful Dead" experience dealing with China, you will have to have a much more developed plan taking into consideration the reality of the cultural and political differences and goals and ability of China. This plan will have to be very well thought out and it will have to be designed to "willfully elicit specific responses" to work. If you design it to also work over millennia, you will be revered in at least two countries, if you publish to government heads, the world will be your oyster.

Chinese ethos, you can not beat them with a war, they will assimilate your culture into theirs like "the borg", knowing that, you have an edge. Assimilate or die.
Old 18th December 2009
  #416
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
You may not mean for me to answer this, but, I do know a bit about it. One of my friends is a panelist attorney for the global talks on this IP rights subject. There are HUGE forces involved.
Here's my take:

You can have both views, as long as you take the advice of the expert you hired, you'll be as OK as you can be, for as long as you can be, and at the same time, you can have the "Grateful" experience.
Dumping IS a Chinese staple on how to take over EVERY market. They aren't "just hungry", they mean to play for keeps, nationalism there is taken to a whole deeper level, it isn't overtly displayed to foreigners, but, it's there.
Your product WILL be copied and WILL be dumped to destroy YOUR competitive edge and take over YOUR market. How long that takes depends on how long you can keep them from putting the puzzle pieces together. They will not be changing long-standing national practices for you.
Your assumption that there is very little you can do being a small manufacturer is 100% correct. Your advisor has given you golden advice.
Once they figure out how to copy your design, they have no intention of letting you have your "Grateful" experience, or to keep your market, they will let you have the "Dead" experience, because, as I said, they mean to play for keeps. They will destroy you on purpose. They will assimilate you, since they will eventually run this planet and they know this.

You will be left with a niche market for the original product that is as small as it may have been in your company's inception and growth inhibited due to more copying and dumping.
They are not stupid, they are not playing around, they do not intend to leave ANY money on the table. Each deal is a tiny cog in a 1000 year wheel that benefits chinese descendants. It's not evil, but, when the communist party tells you what to do, and backs it with force over many years, you learn to do what they say. NO ONE tells them what to do, and they can turn their back on "the rules" on a dime without remorse if it is desirable, convenient, mandated, it won't be a whim.

For you to have the "Grateful Dead" experience dealing with China, you will have to have a much more developed plan taking into consideration the reality of the cultural and political differences and goals and ability of China. This plan will have to be very well thought out and it will have to be designed to "willfully elicit specific responses" to work. If you design it to also work over millennia, you will be revered in at least two countries, if you publish to government heads, the world will be your oyster.

Chinese ethos, you can not beat them with a war, they will assimilate your culture into theirs like "the borg", knowing that, you have an edge. Assimilate or die.

Well, isn't this a happy post. Think pleasant thoughts..... hehheh

Ultimately time will tell, and I wish Michael the best. One thing my father taught me, that I think would come into play here:

"Hope for the best, plan for the worst".

Got me thru a lot of BS along the way.....


Good luck Michael. Keep your vision, listen to advice, play hard. thumbsup
Old 18th December 2009
  #417
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

Thanks for the thoughtful response Memph! And all are welcome to comment.

I would be Grateful (ha!) if folks really try to keep the ensuing conversation positive and constructive. Lets not China bash. For the purpose of discussion lets assume what Memph talks about is true. Then based on that assumption lets get our heads around this question:

"How do we as intellectual property creators (whether music, software, images or physical products) enhance the brand experience so much that low cost knock offs will only appeal to the lowest-price bottom dwellers while the high-value customers we really want to do business with will want to have an authentic brand experience"?

And Memph - I'd like to hear more about this provocative idea of yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
...For you to have the "Grateful Dead" experience dealing with China, you will have to have a plan...designed to "willfully elicit specific responses" to work...
Responses from the copiers? From the marketplace? From myself? Let's hear more of your thinking on this point.
Old 18th December 2009
  #418
Lives for gear
 
BudgetMC's Avatar
As a side note, I have a book published in Chinese. It is my devout hope that it will be bootlegged and someone will send me a copy.

This is because:

1) Lots more people will read my book if it is bootlegged (and available more cheaply).

2) In the 21st Century, being bootlegged in China is absolute proof that you have acheived global significance.
Old 18th December 2009
  #419
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Thanks for the thoughtful response Memph! And all are welcome to comment.

Lets not China bash. For the purpose of discussion lets assume what Memph talks about is true. Then based on that assumption lets get our heads around this question:

Question #1 "How do we as intellectual property creators (whether music, software, images or physical products) enhance the brand experience so much that low cost knock offs will only appeal to the lowest-price bottom dwellers while the high-value customers we really want to do business with will want to have an authentic brand experience"?
That's a 16 million dollar question. It's kinda being done with the specs of the parts selection they currently normally use in knockoffs, i.e. not the best.

Quote:
Question #2: And Memph - I'd like to hear more about this provocative idea of yours:
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie
...For you to have the "Grateful Dead" experience dealing with China, you will have to have a plan...designed to "willfully elicit specific responses" to work...
Responses from the copiers? From the marketplace? From myself? Let's hear more of your thinking on this point.
Well first off, I left out the word "cooperative" in the phrase. Cooperative responses are desired, and you can get them, BUT, there will have to be something desirable in it for them.
It "looks like" they are playing for the bottom, but, they are playing for the whole market top to bottom, they just need to get their foot in the door. Once they do, game is almost over.
The responses would have to come from copiers AND the government. You are looking for a mutually beneficial outcome that outweighs them cutting your throat.
Penalty based stuff is undesirable to you, so, your plan must be outcome based, mutually beneficial, and the benefit must be in keeping you on. You must realize that they will constantly be looking to get a better outcome without you involved and can make that happen and cut you without notice. You'll just start seeing knockoffs, or worse, unauthorized copies everywhere. They can have inferior copies made without telling you deploy them in the same spots and destroy your reputation. They have many many options in destroying the relationship if they see fit. Your lawyer will most likely be able to head off most of them, but, just in case, you need to be invaluable for constant growth and increased revenue, prestige, and perceived value "for them".
The best way to find out how to know what will do it is to find out from them some of the things they need as a business, a town, country need and can't get that you can provide through your personal participation in their community, without stepping on toes or supplanting their long established hierarchy, you can do that through your normal interactions.

Quite literally, you will be the cause of a cultural shift if you accomplish it.

This quote is particularly informative in the "how to" and "laundry list" category.

Go to the people. Learn from them. Live with them. Start with what they know. Build with what they have. The best of leaders when the job is done, when the task is accomplished, the people will say we have done it ourselves. - Lao Tzu (604 BCE)

Jingshen is the Mandarin word for spirit and vivacity. It is an important word for those who would lead, because above all things, spirit and vivacity set effective organizations apart from those that will decline and die. - James Hayes

The family is one of nature’s masterpieces. - George Santayana

It isn’t what people think that is important, but the reason they think what they think. Eugene Ionesco
Things to keep in mind along with the fact that Chinese people like slapstick comedy, bump your head type stuff, pratt falls, etc.
Now the bad quotes:

Do you think when two representatives holding diametrically opposing views get together and shake hands, the
contradictions between our systems will simply melt away? What kind of a daydream is that? - Nikita Khrushchev

Being an expert is more than understanding how a system is supposed to work. Expertise is gained by investigating why a system doesn’t work. - Brian Redman

These are things to consider and also can hit the laundry list when developing the plan. The points can be shared and agreed upon by all parties including local govt. officials. Even that is no guarantee, but, trial and error, is seriously shortened by intent, background knowledge, meaningful dynamic communication and agreed upon action.

Well, that's the supershort version of what I think, someone can call me obtuse now and I'll go back into my caveman existence.
Old 19th December 2009
  #420
Lives for gear
 
Michael_Joly's Avatar
 

OK, I'll take stab at answering my own question: "How do we as intellectual property creators (whether music, software, images or physical products) enhance the brand experience so much that low cost knock offs will only appeal to the lowest-price bottom dwellers while the high-value customers we really want to do business with will want to have an authentic brand experience"?

By providing a superior customer experience - personal service, a "consultive selling process", excellent quality audio demonstrations, a network of users who can share information about their experiences and product usage, well-written and complete technical documentation (individual frequency response curves - not just 'averaged' curves), a life time warrantee and a "studio-ready" story that impresses clients. What have I left out?
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
AustinJeep10 / So much gear, so little time
4
YRLK / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
2
Michael Lin / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
4
(DC) / So much gear, so little time
3

Forum Jump
Forum Jump