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I'm finally doing it. I'm getting rid of my computer. Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 30th November 2009
  #151
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post

(mixing without automation is the best... you WILL learn to ride a vocal fader, and you WILL learn that pan knobs should always be moving).



Especially that pan knob suggestion.
Writing down fader moves for different tracks at certain sections of the song and pulling it off is an adventure. Having 4 - 7 tracks that need to be fine tuned during mixing and attempting a realtime mixdown with notes in hand is fun and exciting! The mixdown becomes a performance , a forgotten artform that makes the music sound exciting and less "autopilot". Most if not all the time, your efforts and imperfections of trying to manualy ride things in the mix sound better than any pre-programmed "clean-up".
Old 30th November 2009
  #152
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayRadioPlay View Post
I'm not looking forward to that

Does anyone have suggestions for some cheap speakers similar to what would have been used in the Tascam's time period? I think I've decided to go the crappy route even with the monitors. It'll make things interesting. I have Adam A7s on my main rig.
JBL4311's
Advents
Kliptch Heresy's, not the new ones, the old ones with all horn based high end.

I LOVE old Heresys

Slam the 38.
Had one for years, slammed all the time.
Old 30th November 2009
  #153
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Batchainpuller78's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=steelyfan;4836900]
Quote:




Especially that pan knob suggestion.
Writing down fader moves for different tracks at certain sections of the song and pulling it off is an adventure. Having 4 - 7 tracks that need to be fine tuned during mixing and attempting a realtime mixdown with notes in hand is fun and exciting! The mixdown becomes a performance , a forgotten artform that makes the music sound exciting and less "autopilot". Most if not all the time, your efforts and imperfections of trying to manualy ride things in the mix sound better than any pre-programmed "clean-up".
Indeed! thumbsup
Old 30th November 2009
  #154
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Oh my, this all sound so familiar...

Thinkin' about Ditching the Daw... talk to me


DO IT.

It'll take a few dry runs to perfect your analog approach, it has almost nothing in common with the daw mentality and workflow, and you have issues that will push your ears and chops to new levels (mixing without automation is the best... you WILL learn to ride a vocal fader, and you WILL learn that pan knobs should always be moving).

Anyway, handily ignore everyone who naysays your vision, who predicts doom and gloom and your speedy return to the sane, safe, familiar world of the digital production beast. You're onto something big for yourself here, pursue it with the blind and relentless faith of a man on a mission.

I volunteer to be your sponsor. If you find yourself alone, late at night, looking at the plugins in the sweetwater catalog and thinking maybe that ssl vst compressor really *will* gives your mixes that 'sounds like a record' sheen... call me. We'll get you thru it.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
12 step "ITB-aholics Anonymous"?
I still mix otb, My computer died and the next day I recorded one of the punchiest mixes right up there with anything I've ever done, better than ITB. I still use digital efx units OTB, I still use a digital recorder, but, the board is analog, and the signal is analog till it hits the mix-down machine.
Mixing never left being an art-form in my house. I don't miss the maintenance, but, I do miss the tape sound.
When I get my new interface, it will have analog ins and outs and I will use the board to mix.
Plugins still suck.
I don't even care if they "sound like" blah blah blah, the only plugs I like are delays. My Lexicon delay unit sounds better.
Old 30th November 2009
  #155
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=steelyfan;4836900]
Quote:




Especially that pan knob suggestion.
Writing down fader moves for different tracks at certain sections of the song and pulling it off is an adventure. Having 4 - 7 tracks that need to be fine tuned during mixing and attempting a realtime mixdown with notes in hand is fun and exciting! The mixdown becomes a performance , a forgotten artform that makes the music sound exciting and less "autopilot". Most if not all the time, your efforts and imperfections of trying to manualy ride things in the mix sound better than any pre-programmed "clean-up".
Surf's up! Hands on the board, eyes check the chinagraph markings on the faders .....aaaaaand GO! heh

The most beautiful bit about this is it creates a magic that is in the moment and one your brain hasn't watched being built piece by piece like drawing around in DAW auto, which afterwards just feels like you did some word processing. It appears all in one go, never to be repeated and never to be demystified by your brain, so infinitely less overviewable and therefore much more interesting to listen to after.

If you get washed in the wave, get back on the board. Also much more fun to take chunks from a few takes of magic surf results and edit into a finished mix than edit yourself into a demented state within the DAW in separates.
Old 30th November 2009
  #156
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Plugins still suck.
I don't even care if they "sound like" blah blah blah, the only plugs I like are delays. My Lexicon delay unit sounds better.
Most definitely! The only plugs I like are eq's for the odd notch removal due to room resonances. No plug boosting if at all can be helped. Haven't yet heard a delay that can do what an SDE-3000 or Yamaha D-1500 can do. Dub it up, cha! Feed dem ting upon demselves....
Old 30th November 2009
  #157
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Most definitely! The only plugs I like are eq's for the odd notch removal due to room resonances. No plug boosting if at all can be helped. Haven't yet heard a delay that can do what an SDE-3000 or Yamaha D-1500 can do. Dub it up, cha! Feed dem ting upon demselves....

+10
The is nothing that sounds like a EH DMM through a vibey tube amp with a sm57.........there just isn't! Delay (to me hears) likes some room sound with it. Since I dropped the computer, my only effects box is a Lexicon MPX-1......cool box. Everything else gets the guitar stomp box treatment.......even vocals most of the time.
Old 30th November 2009
  #158
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

[QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Karloff70 Surf's up! Hands on the board, eyes check the chinagraph markings on the faders .....aaaaaand GO! heh


[/QUOTE]

That's perfect Karloff! And honestly, that's the excitement it brings........GO!.. HEY......here comes that BIG wave!......NAILED IT!!
Old 30th November 2009
  #159
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

You guys are still hedging your bets!

No china markers!

No notes!

No tape next to controls!

I say just push things around, let every pass be its own entity. I was thinking I'd cobble together an ubermix from several passes, picking the best moments from each; turns out mixing for me is much like performing: there's a magical take, start to finish, and even with a wart here and there it still wins the gold.

So in summary:

Record takes start to finish,

No comping,

Bounce every track with something resembling final processing, eq and comp using instinct, commit, move on,

Submix and bounce as needed to gain real estate,

Mix with your hands,

Behold the magical tone and ease with which sounds blend and dance,

Wonder what the hell you were doing all those years.

NB: This approach is not practical or even possible for everyone. Some may hate it to the core; others have business or practical considerations to balance out. I'm not here to preach truth, only to lend my unequivocal support to an alternative approach that some people may not even have considered.

As with all things, roll your own life, smoke 'em if you got 'em.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 30th November 2009
  #160
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

No chinagraph? You extreme sportsman, you

I kind of like to swing the club in its trajectory a few times to feel the edges before whacking the ball toward green.

And although the thought of getting it 'all in one' is a beautiful one, I tend to find areas of beauty spread around takes that just cry out to be joined into a family. If there's love between them no one will ever tell they didn't start life together. heh
Old 30th November 2009
  #161
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Bounce every track with something resembling final processing, eq and comp using instinct, commit, move on,

Submix and bounce as needed to gain real estate,

People always freak out doing this, even in digital. "Second and third generation mixes...." Back in the days of analog tape, people tried to avoid this because of sound degradation, but it really did play a big part in the final sound........maybe even the secret, especially for The Beatles and Motown records. I mean, and I don't really know, but how much are you losing doing submix bounces a few times in digital really? I heard It should be damn near identical sounding if no more d/a a/d conversion is involved. ???
Old 30th November 2009
  #162
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I like a mix with a wart on it, I only mix in one pass, I'll pick a few of them and eeny-meeny-miney-mo THE mix out of them. One pass, one contiguous continuous mix, no comps, no editing later, just mix it right the first time.
WIRES EVERYWHERE.
That's why I like my board, I can get 56 inputs going which is about how many I used to use on the big boards.
Old 30th November 2009
  #163
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Not exactly crap, but I reckon these would be fun:

You might end up with them in your main rig after.....lol
Just looked them up. Tannoy Super Reds. A little bit out of my price range for what I'm looking for. They cost more than my Adams. People must like them a lot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Oh my, this all sound so familiar...

Thinkin' about Ditching the Daw... talk to me

As someone who's done exactly what you're thinking about, and who posted about it beforehand on this forum, lemme just say one thing:

DO IT.

Night before last I finished up what is undoubtedly the fattest, sweetest, most analog, brown sounding mix of my life. No computer, no automation, no digital of any kind including fx. The heart of the setup is a Tascam tsr8 & a Tascam m30 mixer.
I want to hear this fat, brown sound mix!

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Here's what I recommend to turn your rig into something that can produce results others will never, ever get on a digital setup:

Have at least 1 world class comp to track thru for tone and density. I use an API 2500 and a UBK Fatso and tools like that are indispensible. I also have 4 other comps which fall into the 'funky junk' category, and those are equally indispensible but a high end tonemonster into tape is a spectacle to behold.
Currently my only outboard compressors are a Fatso (which I have come very close to having you mod! Just haven't gotten around to it yet) and 2 DBX 163x's. I've been planning on picking up an 1176. Does that have enough flavor? Another option, which would be much more expensive, would be for me to get a Sta Level, which is obviously something I would use for everything, whether it be a digital mix on my computer rig or anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Have a great deck to mix into. I got a Studer a810 years back for $800, it runs like a tank. Setup is everything: I bias in a way that could only be considered 'highly unorthodox', and the result is that the Studer breaks up, darkens down, and distorts in a way that very few pieces of gear in the world can.

Be equally adventurous in setting up your 38. I don't know how much current those bias amps can generate but push 'em, bias is THE magic bullet for getting tape to go beyond, well, tape.
Do you mean a machine to mix down to? I'll have to consult you and others once my machines arrive about setting them up. But I think it would be great to set it up to be darker and dirtier than normal. I like that idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
The model 5 sounds sweet, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. A little noisy, sure, but by the time your 3rd mix is done you wil understand that noise is an essential part of the old school analog magic; it's not an enemy to be vanquished, it's a wild force to be tamed and used for good.

SLAM the trafo's in that model 5, slam the 38, slam whatever mix deck you get.

It'll take a few dry runs to perfect your analog approach, it has almost nothing in common with the daw mentality and workflow, and you have issues that will push your ears and chops to new levels (mixing without automation is the best... you WILL learn to ride a vocal fader, and you WILL learn that pan knobs should always be moving).

Anyway, handily ignore everyone who naysays your vision, who predicts doom and gloom and your speedy return to the sane, safe, familiar world of the digital production beast. You're onto something big for yourself here, pursue it with the blind and relentless faith of a man on a mission.

I volunteer to be your sponsor. If you find yourself alone, late at night, looking at the plugins in the sweetwater catalog and thinking maybe that ssl vst compressor really *will* gives your mixes that 'sounds like a record' sheen... call me. We'll get you thru it.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Thanks for all of the suggestions Greg! You're always nice to have around here. I'll make sure to call you at 4 am EST time to let you know when things break.

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
JBL4311's
Advents
Kliptch Heresy's, not the new ones, the old ones with all horn based high end.

I LOVE old Heresys

Slam the 38.
Had one for years, slammed all the time.
Thanks for the suggestions! The JBLs and Advents might be doable, they appear to be cheaper.
Old 30th November 2009
  #164
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayRadioPlay View Post
Thanks for the suggestions! The JBLs and Advents might be doable, they appear to be cheaper.
You'll like the JBL's and the Heresys the best, the JBL's will give you a stellar mix.
Old 30th November 2009
  #165
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
If there's love between them no one will ever tell they didn't start life together. heh

It worked for Bridge Over Troubled Water. thumbsup


Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayRadioPlay
I want to hear this fat, brown sound mix!

Most definitely, I'm not shy. Should be able to get it up today.


Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie
JBL4311's
Advents
Kliptch Heresy's

4311's rock! Which Advents?


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 30th November 2009
  #166
I came up on 4311's. They were nearly ubiquitous in early 80s low end studios.

I hate them. To me, they're wildly uneven and, for me, took forever to learn how to mix around. I just looked up the original published specs and, while they're not great by today's standards, the printed specs -- 45-15kHz +/- 3 dB -- do not appear to reflect the unevenness that I felt I experienced.

In fact, the printed specs don't even seem to match the spectrum response graph that JBL included in the manual; the printed specs and the graphed specs do not quite agree:


FWIW, the overall shape of the graph is about what I would have expected -- but I personally find it hard to believe that even most of the frequency response is within a 6 dB range. That big 5 dB bump at 6300 and then dropping way, way down between 12.5 and 16kHz doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
Old 30th November 2009
  #167
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chet.d's Avatar
 

Troubling subject for me.

My personal experience...

I've been inspired by people like Greg and Brad and there plight.
I continue to seek a way down the less digital-more analog path.
As much as for sound as for user experience and over all enjoyment!!
If you do any film/tv etc. or plan to the challenge is a tough one.

As is, I deeply value having API 2500, Dangerous D box, API A2D, Arsenal eq and now (thanks to Bill at ATR services) a very well set up and biased Otari 2 trk 1/4 inch that I'm loving! to mix to and sometimes just track straight to it.

But...... As I now consider the need to upgrade - ie; about 5k into a new Mac 8 core + UAD 2... I'm so damn torn about the investment VRS more of a Analog option.
Again, needing to keep the door open to do film score.

I hope to boil all this down a bit more. But, short of more money going out than I have for couple Burl B2's or JCF's ??

Working with what I have, but can't stop seeking a more pleasurable experience.
Old 30th November 2009
  #168
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
It worked for Bridge Over Troubled Water. thumbsup

Most definitely, I'm not shy. Should be able to get it up today.

4311's rock! Which Advents?

Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Advent 1, 2, or 3's, maybe 500's, but I like the 1's.
Old 30th November 2009
  #169
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayRadioPlay View Post
Just looked them up. Tannoy Super Reds. A little bit out of my price range for what I'm looking for. They cost more than my Adams. People must like them a lot!
People do. I do. But yes, not too cheap I guess......can't think of anything else old at the moment which wouldn't just mash up your fun for the sake of oldness....those Tannoy's would not, you could easily end up spending more time on those than your Adam's.....and grin widely while listening AND get a result. In fact, I predict you would.
Old 30th November 2009
  #170
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
Troubling subject for me.

My personal experience...

I've been inspired by people like Greg and Brad and there plight.
I continue to seek a way down the less digital-more analog path.
As much as for sound as for user experience and over all enjoyment!!
If you do any film/tv etc. or plan to the challenge is a tough one.

As is, I deeply value having API 2500, Dangerous D box, API A2D, Arsenal eq and now (thanks to Bill at ATR services) a very well set up and biased Otari 2 trk 1/4 inch that I'm loving! to mix to and sometimes just track straight to it.

But...... As I now consider the need to upgrade - ie; about 5k into a new Mac 8 core + UAD 2... I'm so damn torn about the investment VRS more of a Analog option.
Again, needing to keep the door open to do film score.

I hope to boil all this down a bit more. But, short of more money going out than I have for couple Burl B2's or JCF's ??

Working with what I have, but can't stop seeking a more pleasurable experience.
Timecode striping, AAAAUUUGGGHHH!
Man, that's why I DROPPED analogue. I don't envy THAT, surely there is a workable workaround these days.
Old 30th November 2009
  #171
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Advent 1, 2, or 3's, maybe 500's, but I like the 1's.

I just restored a pair of 2002's from Salvation Army, never heard them but figured for $5 it was worth the risk.

Firing them up today, they look like 3's.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 30th November 2009
  #172
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I came up on 4311's. They were nearly ubiquitous in early 80s low end studios.

I hate them. To me, they're wildly uneven and, for me, took forever to learn how to mix around. I just looked up the original published specs and, while they're not great by today's standards, the printed specs -- 45-15kHz +/- 3 dB -- do not appear to reflect the unevenness that I felt I experienced.

In fact, the printed specs don't even seem to match the spectrum response graph that JBL included in the manual; the printed specs and the graphed specs do not quite agree:


FWIW, the overall shape of the graph is about what I would have expected -- but I personally find it hard to believe that even most of the frequency response is within a 6 dB range. That big 5 dB bump at 6300 and then dropping way, way down between 12.5 and 16kHz doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
I gotta say, consider the source:
I think NS10's suck, but I mix on my pair I've had for 20 + years, I started on 4311's and you are correct, they aren't closely matched, but, that's what was happening in those days, there weren't really well matched speakers that one could afford for a monitor and the JBL's weren't cheap either. Every mix I made on them translated exactly in the real world, and I got a chance to revisit the love lately when my last partner brought in a set to serve as out midfield monitors till our Urei's got fixed.
Once again, every mix translated. I was using a crown digital switching amp of 400 watts/channel. Worked perfectly. they weren't even either. You just have to get used to them.
Old 30th November 2009
  #173
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I just restored a pair of 2002's from Salvation Army, never heard them but figured for $5 it was worth the risk.

Firing them up today, they look like 3's.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
That's what I call an AWESOME deal!!, I love that!\

There is a couple of pairs down the street I want and a subwoofer for my NS10's. next week I may go pick'em up. I missed a pair of celestion 7's down there. I WISH I had a pair of those.
Old 30th November 2009
  #174
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

How difficult is it to refoam Advent speakers? Seems like a lot of pairs on the used market need it.
Old 30th November 2009
  #175
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Could be a pain if you're not dexterous. Got any experience at it?
I imagine if the glue has to set to tacky first, it may not be that bad if you don't have the shakes, but, take them to a reconer. They'll get it right.
Old 30th November 2009
  #176
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Could be a pain if you're not dexterous. Got any experience at it?
I imagine if the glue has to set to tacky first, it may not be that bad if you don't have the shakes, but, take them to a reconer. They'll get it right.
Never done it before but I'm always up for a challenge *snaps fingers*.
Old 30th November 2009
  #177
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Refoaming is cake, takes 20 minutes to do it. Get the foam on ebay, it's like $7, and use a good hobby cement like duco or anything clear, semi-gelatinous, and that smells like it'd be a favorite among the huffers.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 30th November 2009
  #178
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
But...... As I now consider the need to upgrade - ie; about 5k into a new Mac 8 core + UAD 2
Don't y o u d a r e............

What mixer are you using?
Old 30th November 2009
  #179
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

A heavy package just arrived at my door:

The pups are unimpressed:

Well packed:




See anything missing?? A takeup reel! I don't have one. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know what they were called or that I would need one until Googling it 5 minutes ago.

Does that mean I'm completely stuck until I get one? I have two tapes, both Ampex 456, but they both have tape on them.

So should I just order a 1/4" take up reel like this? ATR Magnetics 1/4" x 10.5" Metal Takeup Reel

Any suggestions for what to buy and where? Do I need more than 1?

(If you haven't noticed, this is where all of the stupid questions begin. I'll Google as much as I can before asking you guys, I promise.)
Old 30th November 2009
  #180
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Oops, I meant a 1/2" reel to reel. I'm an idiot.
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