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I'm finally doing it. I'm getting rid of my computer. Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 6th December 2009
  #271
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

You need to read the manual. There must be a way to get one.
You need to record in SYNC, NOT input. Don't record in REPRO it will cause a delay.
Your machine must be cleaned, biased and aligned, "the lost art"maybe relapped, maybe new heads, doubt that though.
Take a look at the physical heads, does it look like they are improperly worn?
When you hit record, in SYNC, does the meter still move?
Does it playback after you record in SYNC?
Did you arm the tracks before recording?
Hang in there.
Old 6th December 2009
  #272
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayRadioPlay View Post
I set a proper level before recording, and with the machine's output set to "Input", I am able to hear my signal coming through loud and perfectly clear. Then, when I record it and play it back, it doesn't make the VUs jump at all (I made sure to change the machine's output to both "Sync" and "Repro", neither worked), and it's almost indiscernibly quiet/dark.

Have you aligned the deck? You can't just slap a reel on a machine and expect it to know what to do, every formula of tape is different. You have to set repro level, hf repro level, lf repro level, bias/overbias, record level, and hf record level.

You got that mrl tape yet? You need that and a tone generator. I mentioned this stuff already... I'm not makin' this **** up ya know!

Tape is a man's game, you gotta earn it. Wine her, dine her, set everything up just so and she'll pay you back tenfold. Anything less and she'll do nothing but frustrate you endlessly.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 6th December 2009
  #273
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
You need to read the manual. There must be a way to get one.
You need to record in SYNC, NOT input. Don't record in REPRO it will cause a delay.
Your machine must be cleaned, biased and aligned, "the lost art"maybe relapped, maybe new heads, doubt that though.
Take a look at the physical heads, does it look like they are improperly worn?
When you hit record, in SYNC, does the meter still move?
Does it playback after you record in SYNC?
Did you arm the tracks before recording?
Hang in there.
I have a manual, luckily. I didn't know the track function buttons had to be selected for the channels to play back. Unfortunately, that hasn't fixed the problem. It still plays back extremely quietly. Can't tell if the heads are worn, since I have nothing to compare to, but it doesn't appear they're in bad shape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Have you aligned the deck? You can't just slap a reel on a machine and expect it to know what to do, every formula of tape is different. You have to set repro level, hf repro level, lf repro level, bias/overbias, record level, and hf record level.

You got that mrl tape yet? You need that and a tone generator. I mentioned this stuff already... I'm not makin' this **** up ya know!

Tape is a man's game, you gotta earn it. Wine her, dine her, set everything up just so and she'll pay you back tenfold. Anything less and she'll do nothing but frustrate you endlessly.
Haven't aligned it yet. I'm using the same tape the previous owner used with the machine. I assumed it would at least somewhat work without being completely top-to-bottom serviced, but I think I assumed wrong. Demag and mrl tape haven't arrived yet, still waiting on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reid View Post
I wish someone would post on youtube a decent tutorial
on setting up a 2 track machine.
Agreed. All of the websites that have information about tape were published in the 90s and have no pictures, diagrams, and especially not videos. That's why I'm having some trouble with the basics .


There is a company in Dallas called Technical Services that apparently works on tape machines. Perhaps I'll take it there and see if I can sit in while they work on it and calibrate it.
Old 6th December 2009
  #274
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayRadioPlay View Post
I have a manual, luckily. I didn't know the track function buttons had to be selected for the channels to play back. Unfortunately, that hasn't fixed the problem. It still plays back extremely quietly. Can't tell if the heads are worn, since I have nothing to compare to, but it doesn't appear they're in bad shape.
I meant to arm the track buttons record, in sync mode only. There is a gap in the poles and it must be a certain distance or they won't work, but, it's more likely either way out of alignment or got an unplugged cable short or other simple problem.
Quote:
There is a company in Dallas called Technical Services that apparently works on tape machines. Perhaps I'll take it there and see if I can sit in while they work on it and calibrate it.
Sans a decent internship availability, that's a great idea, go for it. Take a video camera if they'll let you and solve the problem you had for others.
Old 6th December 2009
  #275
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drezz's Avatar
i made the transistion from the DAW to a totally analog setup recently. Out with the logic/pro tools set up and pugins and in with the vintage large console and 2 Studer A80 machines (16 track 2" & 2 track 1/4")........
One thing i can tell anyone who's thinking of this as a romantic possibility is this..............think very carefully before you take the plunge and get ready to invest serious energy in the whole undertaking: it's really like opening pandora's box.........dont get me wrong, i still believe it's worth it, the sound of the tape is testament to that, it sounds glorious and soo much better than the digital, but there are many many issues to be addressed, not least of all, serious amount of learning how to run a tape machine, it's a steep leaning curve, you have to be ultra methodical and really, it's very time consuming and akin to a true applied science, there are no shortcuts, and if you do shortcut you're defeating the object as your results will, quite frankly suck!!
let me explain:
Tape machines:
There's no doubt, now is the time to get em, there's a whole load of em out there, and compared to yesteryears prices ( might as well buy a house instead!!! ) they're a bargain. BUT........9 times out of ten, they will need some serious servicing/repair to get them up to spec, and then, once working properly, they will need to be carefully maintained.
Get yourself a serious tech who knows tape machines, this is crucial (not a friend of a friend or guy down the pub who thinks he knows tape, but a REAL tech who has a track record and who's been in the buisness and who knows "THE KNOWLEDGE")
Get this man to come along to the studio when you're setting up this machine, spend time gleaning all you can from this guru. Watch, learn, find out how to align, set up bias, azimuth, and generally faultfind if any problems come up.
Get a MRL tone test tape (expensive, but absolutely neccessary) One for each machine you have. (you will need one for each speed and tape formula you intend to use.
Use the tape before every session. that's right EVERY session.
Be fastidious about the tape machines, they are very complex devices, and like UBK said, if treated right they will provide the MAGIC you are after, if not they will sound ****e!!! It really does separate the men from the boys. (sorry about lame metaphor, but it's true!)
Get an oscilliscope, you will need one to set up the machine.
Learn how to solder, you are going to need loads of leads, and some really weird ones to, not off the shelf stuff.
Consoles:
They, like tape, if you are using a vintage unit, will also need TLC and regular maintanence. We recently had to make up EDAC looms for a old Soundcraft 1600 Producer console, which as well as caps and chip mods required the tape sends and returns to be soldered to EDAC connectors, that was all before getting into the ribbon cable spaghetti nightmare under the hood that the previous owner had neglected to wire up correctly.....aaarrrggghhh!!!......and i thought it was going to be so simple, yeah man, throw away the computer and go old school i thought, how hard can it be????
Think again.......it's a science, you'd better be ready. it's PHYSICAL!!!
I'm getting there now, but it's a slow process, and one that needs some real passion and legwork to make happen.
Its all cool tho, this is really sophisticated knowledge that the old school guys have, and those of us coming into this now who've been used to working with digital NEED to learn this stuff as computers have dumbed down the current generation in a way at the risk of priceless knowledge being lost forever.
Learn from the old school bigade, they have it going on, and when it all works it's glorious, really glorious!
Say what you like, there aint nothing like analog, it's a whole million miles away from a DAW both in process and result.......long may it live!!
Cheers.......
Old 6th December 2009
  #276
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

I know me and a bunch of people will definitely second that!
It can't be toppped.
Old 7th December 2009
  #277
Gear Head
 

Just to add.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by drezz View Post
i made the transistion from the DAW to a totally analog setup recently. Out with the logic/pro tools set up and pugins and in with the vintage large console and 2 Studer A80 machines (16 track 2" & 2 track 1/4")........

< Nice machines - if you can do with a 1" 8 track then its less hassle than the 16 track. If you can stretch to it, get 2 multitracks of the same type.>

One thing i can tell anyone who's thinking of this as a romantic possibility is this..............think very carefully before you take the plunge and get ready to invest serious energy in the whole undertaking: it's really like opening pandora's box.........dont get me wrong, i still believe it's worth it, the sound of the tape is testament to that, it sounds glorious and soo much better than the digital, but there are many many issues to be addressed, not least of all, serious amount of learning how to run a tape machine, it's a steep leaning curve, you have to be ultra methodical and really, it's very time consuming and akin to a true applied science, there are no shortcuts, and if you do shortcut you're defeating the object as your results will, quite frankly suck!!
let me explain:
Tape machines:
There's no doubt, now is the time to get em, there's a whole load of em out there, and compared to yesteryears prices ( might as well buy a house instead!!! ) they're a bargain. BUT........9 times out of ten, they will need some serious servicing/repair to get them up to spec, and then, once working properly, they will need to be carefully maintained.
Get yourself a serious tech who knows tape machines, this is crucial (not a friend of a friend or guy down the pub who thinks he knows tape, but a REAL tech who has a track record and who's been in the buisness and who knows "THE KNOWLEDGE")

< Don't forget that tape machines are also very complex mechanical devices as well as electronically. They are also potentially dangerous and will do damage to you, especially when rewinding at high speed. Keep the kids away. tutt>

Get this man to come along to the studio when you're setting up this machine, spend time gleaning all you can from this guru. Watch, learn, find out how to align, set up bias, azimuth, and generally faultfind if any problems come up.

< Setting up the electronics is a doddle compared to the mechanics>

Get a MRL tone test tape (expensive, but absolutely neccessary) One for each machine you have. (you will need one for each speed and tape formula you intend to use.

< Not really, just an alignment tape for each machine/speed. The tape formulation does not come into the calibration of the replay side. What is important is that you align the record side of the machine for a particular tape type and stick to it>

On Studers, you will also have to have an assortment of spring balances.

Use the tape before every session. that's right EVERY session.

< You will quickly go through MRL tapes at this rate. Better still make yourself a submaster tape and use that for quick alignment checks. Most important is head and guide cleaning using isopropyl alcohol.>

Be fastidious about the tape machines, they are very complex devices, and like UBK said, if treated right they will provide the MAGIC you are after, if not they will sound ****e!!! It really does separate the men from the boys. (sorry about lame metaphor, but it's true!)

Get an oscilliscope, you will need one to set up the machine.

< na, you don't NEED a scope; you can do most stuff on the meters >

Learn how to solder, you are going to need loads of leads, and some really weird ones to, not off the shelf stuff.
Consoles:
They, like tape, if you are using a vintage unit, will also need TLC and regular maintanence. We recently had to make up EDAC looms for a old Soundcraft 1600 Producer console, which as well as caps and chip mods required the tape sends and returns to be soldered to EDAC connectors, that was all before getting into the ribbon cable spaghetti nightmare under the hood that the previous owner had neglected to wire up correctly.....aaarrrggghhh!!!......and i thought it was going to be so simple, yeah man, throw away the computer and go old school i thought, how hard can it be????
Think again.......it's a science, you'd better be ready. it's PHYSICAL!!!
I'm getting there now, but it's a slow process, and one that needs some real passion and legwork to make happen.
Its all cool tho, this is really sophisticated knowledge that the old school guys have, and those of us coming into this now who've been used to working with digital NEED to learn this stuff as computers have dumbed down the current generation in a way at the risk of priceless knowledge being lost forever.

< perhaps the most important point about using tape, especially if you only have one multitrack, is that when you press 'Record' hang on to your pantyhose as there is no 'Undo' button>


Learn from the old school bigade, they have it going on, and when it all works it's glorious, really glorious!
Say what you like, there aint nothing like analog, it's a whole million miles away from a DAW both in process and result.......long may it live!!
Cheers.......
Old 7th December 2009
  #278
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Many great suggestions and words of advice in here. I really appreciate it. I hope I don't let all of you down, haha.

It's a shame that tape is a few years too far gone for it to be an easy thing to get into. I really haven't found a single resource that seems to be modern enough to help me. Someone really should start a webpage about using and maintaining tape and other analog gear that has HD videos and high resolution pictures. There aren't any. A web 2.0 resource for all things old and crusty.
Old 7th December 2009
  #279
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

It was NEVER easy.
Old 7th December 2009
  #280
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greatgreatriver's Avatar
 

I just decided to ditch the idea of buying my friends Tascam 38. I know it will take too much time to get into this new/old way of working. I already been doing too much soldering, building, moving, fixing in my studio. I want to record music. I don't care if the digital way is less organic. It's a lot cheaper and easier to maintain.

Only wish I could afford the Apogee 16X's...

Regards,
Dad with a one year old son and not much time to record these days...

I'm choosing the easy way... The digital way... of love (?) and honey (?)...
Old 7th December 2009
  #281
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgreatriver View Post
I just decided to ditch the idea of buying my friends Tascam 38. I know it will take too much time to get into this new/old way of working. I already been doing too much soldering, building, moving, fixing in my studio. I want to record music. I don't care if the digital way is less organic. It's a lot cheaper and easier to maintain.

Only wish I could afford the Apogee 16X's...

Regards,
Dad with a one year old son and not much time to record these days...

I'm choosing the easy way... The digital way... of love (?) and honey (?)...
Don't ditch yet, check and see if your friends machine is working first. If it's working, you'll love it. You don't have to align them too much. You won't be using it as much as a commercial joint I take it, so it won't require as much maintenance. Lil cleanin, here and there, some tape, I'm telling you, the sound of it will be worth it. Digital doesn't do what a good tape machine will do.
Old 7th December 2009
  #282
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greatgreatriver's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Don't ditch yet, check and see if your friends machine is working first. If it's working, you'll love it. You don't have to align them too much. You won't be using it as much as a commercial joint I take it, so it won't require as much maintenance. Lil cleanin, here and there, some tape, I'm telling you, the sound of it will be worth it. Digital doesn't do what a good tape machine will do.
I agree with you - love the sound of tape and analog processing. I'm still thinking of the 38. It's hard to let it go. It's in great shape to.

You rock!
Old 7th December 2009
  #283
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
It was NEVER easy.

Indeed, it was the guardian at the gate so to speak, and the main reason why home recording remained the province of either the hobbyist with a portastudio, or a serious and committed engineer who simply had a smaller budget than the bigger commercial facilities.

The adat changed everything, because suddenly anyone who knew how to stick a tape into a vcr could have a home studio.

Then came the daw, and here we are.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 7th December 2009
  #284
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Sure was.
I remember when I was told by the head engineer that out of 25 interns, I got payed work coming. And I did. It was a BIG deal. I kept busy. 18, new to "the city" and no friends, no distractions, I was LOVING IT.
Before that it was a fostex and before that bouncing live tracks to reel to reel deck along with recorded tracks with pre-emphasis, and matching the live tracks pre-emphasis to the recorded track's pre-emphasis was a lil' tricky.
We got it done, demo's only and mostly for pre production. There were "real studios" for making records.
You could come from nothing and nowhere, apply yourself, and get to work with the best of the best.
I was so glad to get work in a real place with an 8068, a locker full of Neumans, 3 different LA series comps, and all the "current outboard for the time"(reverb was still "plate" analogue delays were new, no 2290's, and I had to learn how to prep the machines and understood the reason for pristine, picky, perfectly aligned meters, heads, and proper grounding and cabling, they taught me to "see" the audio physics so I could make better choices faster. The best part was building the team. I wish I still lived there and worked with the team again, might move back.
Old 7th December 2009
  #285
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
It was NEVER easy.
I know, I just think the Internet could be a powerful tool for helping more people get into analog recording. Especially people that, prior to the advent of a plethora of high quality, streaming How-To videos, felt overwhelmed or underskilled. I am certainly one of those people, although I decided to try my luck anyway. I'm glad I have everyone here to help me out!
Old 7th December 2009
  #286
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Barfunkel's Avatar
 

There's a very good reason why info and videos aren't available. The few people who know how to maintain and repair tape machines have an unique skill, if they'd share all their secrets they'd lose their jobs or at least their income would be reduced. OTOH it might actually also hurt their income somewhat, there are people who are interested in tapes (like me) but are worried how much maintaining it is going to cost, since DIY is difficult, so the the machine might end up gathering dust in the seller's shelf instead of being put to use.
Old 7th December 2009
  #287
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barfunkel View Post
There's a very good reason why info and videos aren't available. The few people who know how to maintain and repair tape machines have an unique skill, if they'd share all their secrets they'd lose their jobs or at least their income would be reduced. OTOH it might actually also hurt their income somewhat, there are people who are interested in tapes (like me) but are worried how much maintaining it is going to cost, since DIY is difficult, so the the machine might end up gathering dust in the seller's shelf instead of being put to use.
Definitely. I fell into the latter category for a long time. I always saw the maintenance requirements to be a reason not to own a tape machine at all, thus not giving any business to the people that do professional work on them. I finally caved, and it looks like I'll be giving some business to a tape tech real soon.
Old 7th December 2009
  #288
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Just got off the phone with John from Technical Services in Dallas. I told him the issues I'm having with the reel to reel as well as the console. He was familiar with both pieces of gear. You should have heard the.... jubilant laugh that he gave when I told him I just picked up a Series 5 mixer. I told him that his reaction was on par with the reactions others have given that I have shared my purchase with.

I'm going to take this stuff to him tomorrow so we can diagnose the exact problems with both devices. He sounds like a knowledgeable and nice guy.
Old 8th December 2009
  #289
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greatgreatriver's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayRadioPlay View Post
Just got off the phone with John from Technical Services in Dallas. I told him the issues I'm having with the reel to reel as well as the console. He was familiar with both pieces of gear. You should have heard the.... jubilant laugh that he gave when I told him I just picked up a Series 5 mixer. I told him that his reaction was on par with the reactions others have given that I have shared my purchase with.

I'm going to take this stuff to him tomorrow so we can diagnose the exact problems with both devices. He sounds like a knowledgeable and nice guy.
HAHA - cool brother! You will learn a lot if you ask a lot.

I want more pictures - Pictures of you holding a guitar and smiling at the tape glory machine.

I'm still thinking of maybe buying my friends 38. Still a little afraid that it will be a lot of problems and little music.
Old 8th December 2009
  #290
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greatgreatriver's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Sure was.
I remember when I was told by the head engineer that out of 25 interns, I got payed work coming. And I did. It was a BIG deal. I kept busy. 18, new to "the city" and no friends, no distractions, I was LOVING IT.
Before that it was a fostex and before that bouncing live tracks to reel to reel deck along with recorded tracks with pre-emphasis, and matching the live tracks pre-emphasis to the recorded track's pre-emphasis was a lil' tricky.
We got it done, demo's only and mostly for pre production. There were "real studios" for making records.
You could come from nothing and nowhere, apply yourself, and get to work with the best of the best.
I was so glad to get work in a real place with an 8068, a locker full of Neumans, 3 different LA series comps, and all the "current outboard for the time"(reverb was still "plate" analogue delays were new, no 2290's, and I had to learn how to prep the machines and understood the reason for pristine, picky, perfectly aligned meters, heads, and proper grounding and cabling, they taught me to "see" the audio physics so I could make better choices faster. The best part was building the team. I wish I still lived there and worked with the team again, might move back.
I want to travel back in time! I want the 'tea' and the 'boy" and I want to run around in mini shirt and bandannas. I want to speak and spell simultaneous. I want to sit in a small room just outside the CR and I want to pres REC.
Old 8th December 2009
  #291
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgreatriver View Post
HAHA - cool brother! You will learn a lot if you ask a lot.

I want more pictures - Pictures of you holding a guitar and smiling at the tape glory machine.

I'm still thinking of maybe buying my friends 38. Still a little afraid that it will be a lot of problems and little music.
If you're going the hybrid route, I think you're fine. Going DAW + tape means you'd never be stuck if the tape was acting up. You could just do without it.

In the rig I'm building (even with it being parallel to a digital rig I have), the tape machine is all it has, so it's a bit scarier.
Old 8th December 2009
  #292
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barfunkel View Post
There's a very good reason why info and videos aren't available. The few people who know how to maintain and repair tape machines have an unique skill, if they'd share all their secrets they'd lose their jobs or at least their income would be reduced.

But aligning a tape machine, and cleaning and demagging the tape path, aren't secrets to be coveted by repair guys. That's the basic maintenance info needed to keep a machine running and, therefore, alive and in use.

So I'd argue that freely available information on the basics is exactly what people need to feel secure in taking the plunge. And the more people who buy these thing, the more customers the techs have for the minor things that crop up now and again.

My Studer has gone down twice in 8+ years, once was a self-repair replacing a shot record card, the other a 1-hour housecall to replace a blown coupling cap. I could've handled that second repair as well, but ya never know what causes a cap like that to blow so I feel better having an expert make sure everything upstream is 100%.

Total downtime = 1 day.

Total cost to purchase, repair, and maintain the machine = $1170.

Cost of machine when new = $25,000.

Winner = me.
Old 8th December 2009
  #293
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
But aligning a tape machine, and cleaning and demagging the tape path, aren't secrets to be coveted by repair guys. That's the basic maintenance info needed to keep a machine running and, therefore, alive and in use.

So I'd argue that freely available information on the basics is exactly what people need to feel secure in taking the plunge. And the more people who buy these thing, the more customers the techs have for the minor things that crop up now and again.

My Studer has gone down twice in 8+ years, once was a self-repair replacing a shot record card, the other a 1-hour housecall to replace a blown coupling cap. I could've handled that second repair as well, but ya never know what causes a cap like that to blow so I feel better having an expert make sure everything upstream is 100%.

Total downtime = 1 day.

Total cost to purchase, repair, and maintain the machine = $1170.

Cost of machine when new = $25,000.

Winner = me.
I think we should make a project out of doing these tape How-To videos. I'll pay for the domain if other people want to provide the content :-)

It can be called ****YourComputer.com
Or ****YourDAW.com
Or TapeRebellion.com
Or something...
Old 8th December 2009
  #294
and again.

Not much more to add but the obligatory that's just about the nicest "home" setup I ever did see, kickass.
Old 8th December 2009
  #295
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
and again.

Not much more to add but the obligatory that's just about the nicest "home" setup I ever did see, kickass.
Thank you, but it'll only be nice once I can get it all to work. I have faith though, in the Analog Gods.
Old 8th December 2009
  #296
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greatgreatriver's Avatar
 

Radio! Have you been to the Dallas dude? Did he fix the problem?
Old 8th December 2009
  #297
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PlayRadioPlay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgreatriver View Post
Radio! Have you been to the Dallas dude? Did he fix the problem?
I'm loading up the tape machine and mixer right now thumbsup
Old 8th December 2009
  #298
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greatgreatriver's Avatar
 

Nice!

Have a great day brother and good luck!
Old 8th December 2009
  #299
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Try and enjoy the physical nature of the fixing

At least its not a software annoyance......looking forward to hearing sounds from the happily serviced.....
Old 8th December 2009
  #300
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greatgreatriver's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
At least its not a software annoyance......looking forward to hearing sounds from the happily serviced.....
Bingo! You are so right bro!
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