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Why would Harrison miss the PC boat with Mixbuss?
Old 17th November 2009
  #1
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carllock's Avatar
 

Why would Harrison miss the PC boat with Mixbuss?

Come on this is almost 2010, there is a huge community of PC based folks like me with $80 to burn. I think they must be on some heavy stuff to neglect the PC market with this product




Old 19th November 2009
  #2
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I think a big part of the low price is due to the fact that Ardour is open-source software, and it's not available for PC. Having said that, I'd love to see something like this for Reaper (and I'd bet money that given the instant popularity of Mixbus, there's a PC equivalent being worked on by someone) or better yet, see Mixbus available for Linux. Just my two cents.
Old 19th November 2009
  #3
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[QUOTE=carllock;4792830]Come on this is almost 2010, there is a huge community of PC based folks like me with $80 to burn. I think they must be on some heavy stuff to neglect the PC market with this product


I don't see a lot of your "huge community" chiming in here. I suspect that's because the majority of the serious music community is in fact a Mac based community.

It really has nothing to do with the year. In fact because it is 2010 and given the history of "Windows" and in particular professional developemnt train wrecks within that platform is probably why they intentionally "missed" the PC boat. IMO
Old 20th November 2009
  #4
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carllock's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=Francz;4800786]
Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post
Come on this is almost 2010, there is a huge community of PC based folks like me with $80 to burn. I think they must be on some heavy stuff to neglect the PC market with this product


I don't see a lot of your "huge community" chiming in here. I suspect that's because the majority of the serious music community is in fact a Mac based community.

It really has nothing to do with the year. In fact because it is 2010 and given the history of "Windows" and in particular professional developemnt train wrecks within that platform is probably why they intentionally "missed" the PC boat. IMO
Funny are you (In the voice of Yoda)

Not to get in the PC/MAC war which had been a declared dead topic on GS for years...You must not travel the world like I do and see the true reality.

Yes a majority of major level level (U.S.) studios are MAC based, but have you realized that a MAJORITY of hit records are produced on a PC. In places like Nashville most studios are in fact PC based (Via Nuendo). Jules could verify for you that in Europe about a 50/50 ratio of MAC/PC Major Studios.

Another thing you must keep in mind here at GS is that not everyone is part of a commercial facility, lots of indy professional producers like me here too, indy people can have any typeof gear or OS for that matter they want.

I am consulting on a studio build in Africa for a Prince there, guess what...The money guy agreed to trashed ALL of the Mac gear, and install all PC's. Pure economic decision, not that the PC is any better or worse than MAC's. Everyone here on G.S. has beat (MAC vs PC) topic to death...The 1's and 0's are the same on either platform.

Even the OS crash statement is dead, they crash about the same...I have a PC in my OL Miko that has crash a total of 0 times (Due to OS) after working everyday 17 hours per day for 8 months straight.

My DAW (Reaper) crashed only three times but they were due to me adding some BS badly programmed VSTi's...I run up to 200-300 vst's and 150 tracks daily without any hiccups. (Reaper Log: Opened 652 times, total uptime 1120:33:39) ....do the math on those three crashes vs uptime.

To say MAC=Serious is an elitist, and worst of all inaccurate statement. That is like saying only serious people make hit records on consoles or with outboard gear...dead topics

The "Elitist attitude" has a lot to do with the slow decline of the music industry as a whole. There is a whole generation of kids coming who could care less if they use a PT HD out a Neve or a Nintendo Wii.

Unless the "Elitist" get a grip, this is a dead industry (economically) in 10 years...it's happening right before everyone's eyes now.

Open your mind and the world will open for you.

Old 20th November 2009
  #5
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slaves666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francz View Post

I don't see a lot of your "huge community" chiming in here. I suspect that's because the majority of the serious music community is in fact a Mac based community.

It really has nothing to do with the year. In fact because it is 2010 and given the history of "Windows" and in particular professional developemnt train wrecks within that platform is probably why they intentionally "missed" the PC boat. IMO
My Studio is PC based and while I am on Nuendo. at $80, Id try it out just for the EQ's and summing.
Old 20th November 2009
  #6
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[QUOTE=carllock;4803141]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francz View Post
In places like Nashville most studios are in fact PC based (Via Nuendo).
Well..I have been in the music community in Nashville for almost 2 decades and while I have 3 Nuendo rigs (2 are on PC) I can assure you that most, if not all of the commercial studios in Nashville have Mac based Pro Tools rigs as their DAWs.

That is one reason why I have multiple Nuendo rigs. I take them with me so I can use Nuendo if I want to.

There are a number of privately owned studios and producers like me who use Nuendo. I would love it if most places had PC based Nuendo rigs but at this time they don't.
Old 20th November 2009
  #7
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When I was in Nashville for five months last year, I saw what I saw...maybe you are correct and the "Official" studio computer was MAC but I saw people on PC workstations (Majority Nuendo). I'm a hip hop dude so maybe they felt comfortable I would not narc!
Old 20th November 2009
  #8
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RusRant's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=sodium glow;4803212]
Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post

Well..I have been in the music community in Nashville for almost 2 decades and while I have 3 Nuendo rigs (2 are on PC) I can assure you that most, if not all of the commercial studios in Nashville have Mac based Pro Tools rigs as their DAWs.

That is one reason why I have multiple Nuendo rigs. I take them with me so I can use Nuendo if I want to.

There are a number of privately owned studios and producers like me who use Nuendo. I would love it if most places had PC based Nuendo rigs but at this time they don't.
I think this is a hard line to draw, because in Nashville there are so many studios that straddle the pro line. I know of several that are PC though. But I know of many more that are mac. Really a hard call when you don't include the uber high end studios (Blackbird, Oceanway, etc) which would be more prevalent, Mac or PC. But I would have to guess Mac.
Old 20th November 2009
  #9
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elginchris's Avatar
 

+1 for carllock's rant.

We all know the industry in a whole is changing and I for one couldnt be happier.

Some of my favorite records sound like turds because they were not recorded on big budget equipment but in garages or basements.

Sure, the high guilty sounds the big studios are putting out today SOUNDS AWESOME but most of the CONTENT IS SHIT.

Ill take a creative catchy rocking, low fi recording any day rather than something that has been over -played, unoriginal, candy ass sucker music.

As far as the PC/MAC debate, I'm a programmer by trade and I always say "the best OS is the one you enjoy using the most."
Old 20th November 2009
  #10
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The MPCist's Avatar
 

Let me add to the pot the fact that 'some' people prefer using PC for Pro Tools for the 'abundance of plugins'......

I on the other hand only use Mac due to the fact that I'm PC-illiterate and have no time to tinker with bios s**t... heh
Old 20th November 2009
  #11
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[QUOTE=RusRant;4803261]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodium glow View Post

I think this is a hard line to draw, because in Nashville there are so many studios that straddle the pro line. I know of several that are PC though. But I know of many more that are mac. Really a hard call when you don't include the uber high end studios (Blackbird, Oceanway, etc) which would be more prevalent, Mac or PC. But I would have to guess Mac.
I was referring to the higher end commercial studios. Dark horse, Blackbird, Oceanway, Starstruck, Quad, Sound Kitchen etc. Not the hundreds of project basement or home studios in town. I'm not implying that there aren't some great home studios around but I assumed the original post was commenting on the high end commercial places.
Old 20th November 2009
  #12
Gear Nut
 

I would like to "chime" in here if I may…

The Mac vs. PC debate really was not a factor in our decision regarding the platform “choice” for mixbus. It was a much more practical decision which was actually made more than 20 years ago. We simply do not have, nor have we ever had in place a development team for PC based products. That’s not to say that we never will but at this point in time there really was no decision to be made which was our only choice. Geddy Lee said somthing to that effect one time as wellJ

There are basically two basic principles we use when designing and bringing any product to market.

1. How can we bring the highest possible quality product to market fast and cost effectively?

2. How can we support that high quality product fast and cost effectively?

I’m not sure any one realizes how impossible this product would have been just 5 years ago. The reason we are even able to offer a product like mixbus at that price point is because of our commitment and the committments of many others to the open source development community and our many years of product development on Mac and more recently Linux based platforms. This product development approach is what made it possible to meet those two requirements with mixbus. We do not promote Mac over Windows we simply must develop products that fit within our scope of being able to handle them both on a developmental and support basis.

So far we have managed to bring a high quality cost effective product to market with good results and we plan to continue our support of those efforts with more of the same in the future.

Gary Thielman
President
Harrison Consoles
Old 20th November 2009
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post
Come on this is almost 2010, there is a huge community of PC based folks like me with $80 to burn. I think they must be on some heavy stuff to neglect the PC market with this product

I don't see a lot of your "huge community" chiming in here. I suspect that's because the majority of the serious music community is in fact a Mac based community.

It really has nothing to do with the year. In fact because it is 2010 and given the history of "Windows" and in particular professional developemnt train wrecks within that platform is probably why they intentionally "missed" the PC boat. I
MO
Maybe at least some in that community try to find better things to do with their time than continually attempt to justify their choices to ill-informed elitists.

Old 20th November 2009
  #14
Gear Nut
 

ive been PC based my entire life...

macs seem like toys for people who dont know anything about computers or how to be in control of their system

which i guess is fair if you only want it as a tool for making music. however my custom built quad core PC will absolutely SMOKE any mac desktop or laptop and i paid half as much

lets not forget that windows is run on 95% of computers in the world
Old 20th November 2009
  #15
Both platforms have their pluses and both have their minuses.

It's up to the individual user to figure out what's important to him, what works best for him.

And then have the good grace to not denigrate other people's probably well-considered decisions.

Old 20th November 2009
  #16
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carllock's Avatar
 

I want to give an apology if it seems I went off into a rant, but "elitism" is killing our industry. Look at the record company end (which is the basis of all our income)...I watched first hand when they held their noses in the air at the artist and producers. We even warned the industry about the internet threat (and other threats) and they ignored it.

A closed mind always equals a closed heart...

P.S.

Mr Thielman,

Thank you so much for taking the time to providing honest and first-hand information on this topic.
Old 20th November 2009
  #17
Harrison Consoles has its name in some B.B.King and J.Lopez records. Also MJ's Thriller was done on it. Let's say it is a 1st step into big consumer market from a stellar house. Universal Audio Webzine | Analog Obsession
Old 20th November 2009
  #18
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ajcamlet's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Thielman View Post
I would like to "chime" in here if I may…

The Mac vs. PC debate really was not a factor in our decision regarding the platform “choice” for mixbus. It was a much more practical decision which was actually made more than 20 years ago. We simply do not have, nor have we ever had in place a development team for PC based products. That’s not to say that we never will but at this point in time there really was no decision to be made which was our only choice. Geddy Lee said somthing to that effect one time as wellJ

There are basically two basic principles we use when designing and bringing any product to market.

1. How can we bring the highest possible quality product to market fast and cost effectively?

2. How can we support that high quality product fast and cost effectively?

I’m not sure any one realizes how impossible this product would have been just 5 years ago. The reason we are even able to offer a product like mixbus at that price point is because of our commitment and the committments of many others to the open source development community and our many years of product development on Mac and more recently Linux based platforms. This product development approach is what made it possible to meet those two requirements with mixbus. We do not promote Mac over Windows we simply must develop products that fit within our scope of being able to handle them both on a developmental and support basis.

So far we have managed to bring a high quality cost effective product to market with good results and we plan to continue our support of those efforts with more of the same in the future.

Gary Thielman
President
Harrison Consoles
Well Said Gary!. Loving Mixbus by the way! The sound is there, and that's what counts.
Old 21st November 2009
  #19
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hank alrich's Avatar
 

I guess I don't understand the whining. On minute the Wintel crowd is crowing about how many more apps there are for that platform, and then when somebody makes a Mac-only app they start bitching that they're being left out.

WTF??

Use what you like that runs on your platform. Trade bitching for getting work done. It makes no difference to anybody what somebody else uses.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #20
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Imagine, if you can...

...an Open Source Software project where one developer decided to produce a digital audio workstation, Ardour.

Imagine the first 10 years of development on Linux where there's a very small and understanding user base. The dedication and required amount of time to build a DAW is significant. It's an overwhelming task because that developer financially supported the project from his savings.

The amount of work to compile and run Ardour on OS X is a serious investment. Mostly paid for out of pocket by that one developer.

Imagine the amount of time required to have Ardour compile and run on Windows. This is just the beginning because in one swoop %80 of all computer users are going to descend upon that developer to support their technical needs.

How much time and money will be required to support the Windows user base? Good intentions and Pie in the Sky do not represent or answer the question of how much money is it gonna take to support the massive number of Windows users.

The Mac vs Windows, as viable user platforms, debate has just about absolutely nothing to do with Ardour running on Windows.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingocounty View Post
I think a big part of the low price is due to the fact that Ardour is open-source software, and it's not available for PC.
Huh?

I have a PC running UbuntuStudio that begs to differ.

Silly Mac ads notwithstanding, PC != "computer running Windows."
Old 23rd November 2009
  #22
Gear Addict
harrions investment in open source projects makes them an ethically quality company in my book.
apple is and has always been pure evil.
macs are made in china just like most any other computers in the world.
macs are now normal pcs inside.

:P
Old 23rd November 2009
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorn Lavoll View Post
harrions investment in open source projects makes them an ethically quality company in my book.
apple is and has always been pure evil.
macs are made in china just like most any other computers in the world.
macs are now normal pcs inside.

:P
Then it stands to reason that Harrison was pure evil for the first 30 plus years of their existence and recompense in the form of high quality hardware at dirt ball prices is in order.

This is a very nice line of reasoning. I support your argument.

Dear Harrison, get your karma right[er], MB is just a start, and start giving us free preamps.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #24
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Mr President has already spoken but just so it's clear.
MixBuss is based on Ardour which is an opensource DAW. Ardour runs on Linux, the opensource OS, & OS X since they both share the same kernal.

Harrison's choice of platform is defined by the lineage of their product. As a PC user, I would love to see MixBuss on PC. However for that to happen, Ardour would have to be developed for PC, which isn't happening.

I'm perfectly happy with a competing product that basically does the same thing as MixBuss. It's just developed in Windows, has always been, and always will be. It's a big deal to release your product on 2 different OS's.
If I ever want to check out MixBus (sorta do), I'll just have to build a Linux box. (Does Mixbuss run in Linux?)
Old 23rd November 2009
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andsonic View Post
If I ever want to check out MixBus (sorta do), I'll just have to build a Linux box. (Does Mixbuss run in Linux?)
**Edit - Apparently MixBus is OSX only, but the following applies to Ardour as well as other Linux music apps.


For anyone interested in checking out Ardour or any other "Linux only" app, I suggest downloading an Ubuntu installation disc image, burning it to a disc and booting to it.

Almost any Ubuntu CD can also be used as a LiveCD as well as an installer. Which means you can try without making any changes to your current system.

You won't get the same performance as you would if you installed it to your hard drive, especially on a machine with modest specs, but it gives you the opportunity to dip you toe in the water before re-formatting your hard drive and jumping right in.

Another option is to download the free VMware Player and run an Ubuntu virtual machine on that. You will probably get better performance going this route, as everything runs in memory when using the live cd, where as the VMware player is installed on your hard drive like any other app.

If you decide after trying these methods that you would like to install Linux, but don't want to lose your Windows environment, most distros are able to do non-destructive repartitioning of your hard drive. Just create enough free space for Linux, back up your data, defrag your drive, then boot to the install CD and follow the prompts.

Or, then next time you "upgrade," keep the old machine and put Linux on it.

Okay, end of Linux-zealot rant
Old 23rd November 2009
  #26
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beanface's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingocounty View Post
I think a big part of the low price is due to the fact that Ardour is open-source software, and it's not available for PC. Having said that, I'd love to see something like this for Reaper (and I'd bet money that given the instant popularity of Mixbus, there's a PC equivalent being worked on by someone) or better yet, see Mixbus available for Linux. Just my two cents.
I've got an 'API' mixbuss for Reaper, but sadly it cost a fair bit more than $80. It sounds fantastic, but I would quite happily spend £55 on mixbuss in a flash!



EDIT: I wonder if Harrison could do a similar thing with Reaper? It could be implemented really easily.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #27
I don't currently have a Linux box running at my place (though I deal with Linux servers daily as a web guy) but I think it's great that there is active audio development on that platform. And if it spills over onto the Mac, well... coals to Newcastle. heh

We Windows and Mac folks have had a near-lock on audio/music apps for way too long. I'm delighted to see support for open source audio apps gathering a little steam. I could easily imagine a stripped down *nix OS under a dedicated or turn-key DAW.


PS, though I'm a darksider, I was at first a little bit nonplussed by the moaning. We on Windows do have a lot of apps and utils to choose from (as do our Mac brethren). However, I strongly suspect the momentary moaning was more a matter of folks not realizing the development logistics of this product, the *nix roots, etc. Developing software from the ground up can be a hugely time-consuming, expensive process. Tough decisions must often be made. But if those decisions aren't made (or made wisely), the project may never become viable.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I could easily imagine a stripped down *nix OS under a dedicated or turn-key DAW.
Check out UbuntuStudio .

I wouldn't say every app is "ready for prime time," but the real-time kernel is great for CPU-intensive task, and the JACK audio connection kit (yup, another recursive acronym) gives you a lot of flexibility managing signal flow between applications.
Old 24th November 2009
  #29
Gear Maniac
Maybe a little off topic but does Apple (as a developer) get the same kind of hate for only supporting Logic on the Mac platform? I'm sure the majority of the E-Magic customer base was PC being a German company and I'm sure they lost a good percentage of their user base when they ended PC support. But I rarely see rants about the lack of PC support for Logic.

Other than ProTools, which DAW's have cross-platform support? I've read that Digi's customer base on the LE products is pretty evenly split Mac / PC though a much higher percentage of Mac users with the HD product line.
Old 24th November 2009
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teletude View Post
Maybe a little off topic but does Apple (as a developer) get the same kind of hate for only supporting Logic on the Mac platform? I'm sure the majority of the E-Magic customer base was PC being a German company and I'm sure they lost a good percentage of their user base when they ended PC support. But I rarely see rants about the lack of PC support for Logic.

Other than ProTools, which DAW's have cross-platform support? I've read that Digi's customer base on the LE products is pretty evenly split Mac / PC though a much higher percentage of Mac users with the HD product line.
I use to love Logic when it was on PC, when it dropped me I dropped it...
tutt
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