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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 20th November 2009
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staudio View Post
One thing is for sure, Digi will always have some kind of hardware as part of the package, that is where they make the money, not on the software (however behind the times that model may be, they do not know how to break from it).
speculation is sorta fun. Maybe their hardware would be a new converter box the quality of a lynx aurora 16 w/ built in dsp power that u can use on input, output, and within session w/ extremely low latency.
Old 20th November 2009
  #242
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

It's fun but really totally guessing because entirely different folks are now running the company!
Old 20th November 2009
  #243
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by staudio View Post
It seems obvious to me is that Digi is going to replace HD hardware some time next year. The recent half price promotion is focused on getting rid of their stock of interfaces and cards. This is classic end of product life business strategy. Get rid of all the soon to be worthless stock and then release a new product family to replace HD and offer some kind of incentive for all the new HD customers to upgrade again to the newer system.
Get them on both upgrade fees from LE to HD and HD to ____.

One thing is for sure, Digi will always have some kind of hardware as part of the package, that is where they make the money, not on the software (however behind the times that model may be, they do not know how to break from it).
You are serious out of touch with reality. the only reasons new hardware will come out will be if Apple stops putting in PCIe slots in a Mac Pro or if they come out with a card that has 3-4s time the DSP of the current cards. (and that probably is not going to happen because of current bandwidth limitations on PCIe buses. People having been saying what $hit that you have been saying for the last FIVE years. Digi is trying to get LE users to switch to HD. And if you had not noticed there is a recession so they are trying to move inventory.
Old 20th November 2009
  #244
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry b View Post
ditto
Old 20th November 2009
  #245
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Old 20th November 2009
  #246
Gear Maniac
 

As someone who's in Kenny's shoes exactly, in that I have a PCI-x HD3 rig, I have been thinking about this stuff a lot lately in light of Digi and Apple discontinuing support for the PPC Macs. I do a lot of large mixes but also like Kenny I don't really need any more signal-processing power (eq, comp, etc.). I just need more CPU horsepower for VIs and the ability to stay current with the "pro" version of the Pro Tools software. Anyway, here are my thoughts in no particular order....

I'd like to say up front that I'm mainly in the music biz and can't speak to the post side of things. But, I'm in LA and have worked in plenty of the biggest music studios. From my experience those studios are all exclusively PTHD, but there's not a one of them that would plunk down another nickel on a new DAW unless they absolutely had to. Most of them that have managed to survive are hunkered down and haven't made any major new purchases in years. The bottom line as I see it is that, on the music production side of things, I have a hard time imagining AVID releasing a successor to the TDM/HD Accel line that would create enough "must-have" demand to generate a large volume of sales in this sector. Plus, the rental studios have a lot of pressure to stay current with all the latest plug-ins as well--that's arguably MORE important than the raw horsepower of the PT rigs.

According to AVID's newest corporate earnings statement (I found in a link on another thread on this site), the video side of AVID does produce more revenue than the audio side--by a significant margin. So there's that to consider. As a company though they've been posting consistent losses the last several quarters. As a business entity with ultimately finite resources (especially in this environment of tight credit) it may be that AVID's top priority right this second is shoring up the video side of things and addressing their competition in that regard.

So how about this as a somewhat depressing but maybe more pragmatic scenario: they try and sit tight for a minute and attempt to get as much as possible from their existing audio products while hedging their bets and giving them a bit of breathing space with regard to the future by simply buying some time? I went to a seminar on PT8 at their offices in Burbank a few months back and I sensed that was the plan. The Satellite Link option was the thing most highly touted there btw. They certainly didn't drop any hints about something big around the corner, that's for sure!

There a few concrete issues they have to ultimately acknowledge and address though. Some of the are:

- They're either going to truly compete in the consumer-prosumer-project studio market or they're not. IMO they can't keep milking the prestige and reverence the Pro Tools brand inspires in this market by their rep as the industry standard on the pro side if the competing products in that consumer market pull way ahead in terms of features, capabilities and price. People can be dumb in many (many?) ways, but not when it comes to technology. That means they have to optimize the performance of RTAS. It also means they should probably include a freeze option, add more bundled plugs, etc. (I'm agnostic on offline bounce as I think anyone serious about their work should listen to it in real time anyway). From what I've read here and other places, Digi is in the process of doing just this--making LE more competitive.

- A simple, irrefutable fact (in my opinion, of course!) is that as recently as a year or so ago for anyone who wanted to do real, professional mixing native processing power simply wasn't there. You had to have a DSP-accelerated system. When PTHD first came out, the idea of trying to mix ITB on a CPU alone was a joke. On the professional side and even on down the line quite a bit there was a true demand for what Digidesign was offering with TDM. Now, at least on the music side of things (and I would suspect the large majority of audio post pros), this just isn't the case. As long as cats are willing to stay at 44.1-48k, the raw processing juice in the newest boxes is ample for all but the very largest projects. That being the case, I would argue that while AVID could certainly try and target this ever-smaller market as their bread and butter customer base with a massively powerful and massively expensive successor to HD, this would require an equally massive downsizing of their company. Latency issues aside, the number of projects for whom an 8-core i7 computer would not serve are few and far nowadays. Plus, even if it couldn't and they needed more power, why would they pony up a boatload more cheddar for a new-generation HD card when they could but 1 used core card, plop it in a screaming new Mac, and run it in parallel with another HD rig using the satellite option?

- As anyone who got burnt when Apple switched exclusively from PCI-X to PCIe can tell you, for Mac users at least, building a DAW around ANY card-based system is a bad idea if there are other options available. That includes what may look like other good products from SSL, Apogee, etc. Why do it if you don't have to? Because someday in the not too distant future Apple will decide to dump whatever card format you have invested in.

- The curve for the real-world processing power needs in audio production is flattening out and the power of computers keeps rising. So, especially for people that already own a working DAW, dollars are going to start being spent elsewhere than on new DAW hardware. You can already see this reflected in the new Sweetwater Pro catalog. In the previous version Digidesign owned the whole first section of the thing, and computer recording stuff in general took up the whole first part. Now, it goes guitars, amps, keyboards, drums, THEN computer audio stuff. Oh, and the "Pro Tools" section has been drastically downsized.

FWIW, I like the idea by one of the posters here of Digi figuring out how to have the DAE run natively for all versions of Pro Tools while giving existing TDM owners a fig leaf for their pride by making it possible to still use their cards for accelerated DSP. That would be the best solution IMO. I'm simply not interested in plunking down another $10K-20K for a new version of TDM cards I don't need. And as a freelance engineer walking into a commercial studio I could care less about seeing that either. I'd ten times rather them upgrade other aspects of the rooms or even better put the money towards paying the poor people who staff the joints a little more so they could eat.

As an aside, I think Digi got screwed partially because no one adopted high def en masse. That's definitley in part because even an HD3 Accel system out of the gate couldn't provide enough juice to make pro mixes ITB though. But, if Digi just follows their standard MO and comes out with next-generation TDM cards that are powerful enough to mix 192 sessions with the same track and plug-in count as existing systems do at 44.1--with just 2-3 of the new cards--look out! There's at least a more than decent chance the top pros would start adopting high def across the board. If that happened, it could trickle down and Digi could enjoy another 4-5 years on the top of the heap at least.

My 3 cents
Old 20th November 2009
  #247
Lives for gear
 

The other issue is that of plug in processing demands. As they improve we can see a general rise in demand on the dsp. I think we'll always need more power as people code more with that in mind. I hope digi will go native but dongle us with a single pci e card for digital interfacing. Eg 128ch madi card to connect to whatever you want. Plus a madi io for the existing 192. Etc.
Old 20th November 2009
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post

My personal guess: the most economical and simple change for Avid would be to merge two products into one, namely the I/Os and the DSP cards, into one product: an I/O with some added DSP, which possibly also can serve as a standalone recorder, with built-in networking options (so one can exchange with computers etc).

Such a box would probably be based on some (under-the-hood) industrial version of Windows, which Avid probably won't mention in the ads, since 90-95 % of their high-ends users probably use Mac.

.
An interesting thought !

But I think they still would have to adress dsp expandability via mac / pc at some point since they CAN NOT compete with apple etc. in the execution of moore´s law.
Apple just raised the bar of processing speed people have come to expect:
You get a mac, which is twice as fast as your old one from last year at a similar price .

So they most likely will have some basic dsp built in for providing a low latency mixing engine but letting go mac os / windows would be suicide at some point IMO.
Old 20th November 2009
  #249
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Agree on many points discussed here. But what I'd really like to know is about AVID's price points in the future.

Until end of the year, they're offering the basic 'useful' PTHD package (HD2+192) for less than €6k includind VAT, which is half price an the most agressive offer they've done to date. I'd like to know whether this will set a precedent or if it's just an accountant move to close the last quarter with some better (maked-up) results.
Old 20th November 2009
  #250
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
I have one real problem with many daws, except nuendo and pro tools (even le).
If you push the system near to it's maximum, all daws except the above mentioned ones starting to acting strangely. Not necessarily crashing, but doing unpredictable things.
This is my experience. (not only mine of course)
TD
I've had a similar experience (years ago) with Logic and Digital Performer. That was a huge draw back for me. I don't like having to check my bounces during or after the bounce. With Pro Tools HD, I can hit print and go make a phone call and send the file when it's done. Huge time and brain saver.
Old 20th November 2009
  #251
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
With Digidesign providing a million times better support and testing, and updates.

TH
That's never been in question. The question is, can Digidesign "survive" to continue providing that professional service? Or will we be forced to use buggy software?
Old 20th November 2009
  #252
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
I have one real problem with many daws, except nuendo and pro tools (even le).
If you push the system near to it's maximum, all daws except the above mentioned ones starting to acting strangely.
I've had a similar experience (years ago) with Logic and Digital Performer. That was a huge draw back for me.
Of course; that's why we all used TDM hardware 'years ago'! :-)

A main reason PTHD grew into becoming so much of a standard as it did, was of course that native systems in general were able to perform well in those situations.
Old 20th November 2009
  #253
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFunk View Post
As someone who's in Kenny's shoes exactly, in that I have a PCI-x HD3 rig, I have been thinking about this stuff a lot lately in light of Digi and Apple discontinuing support for the PPC Macs. I do a lot of large mixes but also like Kenny I don't really need any more signal-processing power (eq, comp, etc.). I just need more CPU horsepower for VIs and the ability to stay current with the "pro" version of the Pro Tools software. Anyway, here are my thoughts in no particular order....

I'd like to say up front that I'm mainly in the music biz and can't speak to the post side of things. But, I'm in LA and have worked in plenty of the biggest music studios. From my experience those studios are all exclusively PTHD, but there's not a one of them that would plunk down another nickel on a new DAW unless they absolutely had to. Most of them that have managed to survive are hunkered down and haven't made any major new purchases in years. The bottom line as I see it is that, on the music production side of things, I have a hard time imagining AVID releasing a successor to the TDM/HD Accel line that would create enough "must-have" demand to generate a large volume of sales in this sector. Plus, the rental studios have a lot of pressure to stay current with all the latest plug-ins as well--that's arguably MORE important than the raw horsepower of the PT rigs.

According to AVID's newest corporate earnings statement (I found in a link on another thread on this site), the video side of AVID does produce more revenue than the audio side--by a significant margin. So there's that to consider. As a company though they've been posting consistent losses the last several quarters. As a business entity with ultimately finite resources (especially in this environment of tight credit) it may be that AVID's top priority right this second is shoring up the video side of things and addressing their competition in that regard.

So how about this as a somewhat depressing but maybe more pragmatic scenario: they try and sit tight for a minute and attempt to get as much as possible from their existing audio products while hedging their bets and giving them a bit of breathing space with regard to the future by simply buying some time? I went to a seminar on PT8 at their offices in Burbank a few months back and I sensed that was the plan. The Satellite Link option was the thing most highly touted there btw. They certainly didn't drop any hints about something big around the corner, that's for sure!

There a few concrete issues they have to ultimately acknowledge and address though. Some of the are:

- They're either going to truly compete in the consumer-prosumer-project studio market or they're not. IMO they can't keep milking the prestige and reverence the Pro Tools brand inspires in this market by their rep as the industry standard on the pro side if the competing products in that consumer market pull way ahead in terms of features, capabilities and price. People can be dumb in many (many?) ways, but not when it comes to technology. That means they have to optimize the performance of RTAS. It also means they should probably include a freeze option, add more bundled plugs, etc. (I'm agnostic on offline bounce as I think anyone serious about their work should listen to it in real time anyway). From what I've read here and other places, Digi is in the process of doing just this--making LE more competitive.

- A simple, irrefutable fact (in my opinion, of course!) is that as recently as a year or so ago for anyone who wanted to do real, professional mixing native processing power simply wasn't there. You had to have a DSP-accelerated system. When PTHD first came out, the idea of trying to mix ITB on a CPU alone was a joke. On the professional side and even on down the line quite a bit there was a true demand for what Digidesign was offering with TDM. Now, at least on the music side of things (and I would suspect the large majority of audio post pros), this just isn't the case. As long as cats are willing to stay at 44.1-48k, the raw processing juice in the newest boxes is ample for all but the very largest projects. That being the case, I would argue that while AVID could certainly try and target this ever-smaller market as their bread and butter customer base with a massively powerful and massively expensive successor to HD, this would require an equally massive downsizing of their company. Latency issues aside, the number of projects for whom an 8-core i7 computer would not serve are few and far nowadays. Plus, even if it couldn't and they needed more power, why would they pony up a boatload more cheddar for a new-generation HD card when they could but 1 used core card, plop it in a screaming new Mac, and run it in parallel with another HD rig using the satellite option?

- As anyone who got burnt when Apple switched exclusively from PCI-X to PCIe can tell you, for Mac users at least, building a DAW around ANY card-based system is a bad idea if there are other options available. That includes what may look like other good products from SSL, Apogee, etc. Why do it if you don't have to? Because someday in the not too distant future Apple will decide to dump whatever card format you have invested in.

- The curve for the real-world processing power needs in audio production is flattening out and the power of computers keeps rising. So, especially for people that already own a working DAW, dollars are going to start being spent elsewhere than on new DAW hardware. You can already see this reflected in the new Sweetwater Pro catalog. In the previous version Digidesign owned the whole first section of the thing, and computer recording stuff in general took up the whole first part. Now, it goes guitars, amps, keyboards, drums, THEN computer audio stuff. Oh, and the "Pro Tools" section has been drastically downsized.

FWIW, I like the idea by one of the posters here of Digi figuring out how to have the DAE run natively for all versions of Pro Tools while giving existing TDM owners a fig leaf for their pride by making it possible to still use their cards for accelerated DSP. That would be the best solution IMO. I'm simply not interested in plunking down another $10K-20K for a new version of TDM cards I don't need. And as a freelance engineer walking into a commercial studio I could care less about seeing that either. I'd ten times rather them upgrade other aspects of the rooms or even better put the money towards paying the poor people who staff the joints a little more so they could eat.

As an aside, I think Digi got screwed partially because no one adopted high def en masse. That's definitley in part because even an HD3 Accel system out of the gate couldn't provide enough juice to make pro mixes ITB though. But, if Digi just follows their standard MO and comes out with next-generation TDM cards that are powerful enough to mix 192 sessions with the same track and plug-in count as existing systems do at 44.1--with just 2-3 of the new cards--look out! There's at least a more than decent chance the top pros would start adopting high def across the board. If that happened, it could trickle down and Digi could enjoy another 4-5 years on the top of the heap at least.

My 3 cents
Great post.

So what protocol could Digidesign switch to? Firewire? USB2.0? I guess anything is replaceable as a communication protocol.
Old 20th November 2009
  #254
Gear Addict
 

If Pro Tools figures out a way to have the TDM architecture work more seamlessly with native processing power they will be set for years to come. For example allowing offline bounce, higher amounts of sample delay compensation and utilizing native all around in conjunction with TDM just a little better and it'll be unstoppable.

Every day people can buy generic tylenol at Duane Reade, Rite Aid, CVS etc.. for way cheaper but Tylenol still sells like crazy. Brand name means, trust, reliability and quality. Pro Tools just has to stay competitive and it'll be fine. To all you LE users, Pro Tools does have ADC. Stop complaining because you bought Pro Tools light. Pro Tools LE is not "professional" software and was never meant to be so.
Old 20th November 2009
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Great post.

So what protocol could Digidesign switch to? Firewire? USB2.0? I guess anything is replaceable as a communication protocol.
Ethernet would be great.
Old 20th November 2009
  #256
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
Me thinks KFunk knows something...

Debut post 'novel' that sums up just about every point needing to be made. A good understanding of the current market and viable solutions for those already entrenched in PT and eager to see what the future holds.

R.
Old 20th November 2009
  #257
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"As an aside, I think Digi got screwed partially because no one adopted high def en masse. That's definitley in part because even an HD3 Accel system out of the gate couldn't provide enough juice to make pro mixes ITB though."


Geez, that's just a ridiculous statement.

What are "pro" mixes? Mixes with 400 tracks with plugs on every track?

TH
Old 20th November 2009
  #258
Gear Addict
 
Rappy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Great post.

So what protocol could Digidesign switch to? Firewire? USB2.0? I guess anything is replaceable as a communication protocol.
Something like the Apogee AD-16x or DA-16x like where you can buy different cards, but still use the same unit, would be nice.
Old 20th November 2009
  #259
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
"As an aside, I think Digi got screwed partially because no one adopted high def en masse. That's definitley in part because even an HD3 Accel system out of the gate couldn't provide enough juice to make pro mixes ITB though."


Geez, that's just a ridiculous statement.

What are "pro" mixes? Mixes with 400 tracks with plugs on every track?

TH
Do you don't do a lot of 96K mixing I take it.
Just because you don;t need does not mean everyone else does not need it.
Old 20th November 2009
  #260
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hipass View Post
Do you don't do a lot of 96K mixing I take it.
Just because you don;t need does not mean everyone else does not need it.
I've done "professional" mixes on LE at 96, so I'm sure I could do a "professional" mix on an HD3 too I don't normally work at 96 because I see no value in the final result except the playback in the control room. No one else will ever hear it.



TH
Old 20th November 2009
  #261
Gear Nut
 

"So what protocol"....
How about Intel/Apples planned Light Peak...

Not sure when but it sure sounds latency, logjam & future proof and should work on a laptop as well as a tower

Light Peak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Light Peak is Intel's code-name for a new high-speed optical cable technology designed to connect electronic devices to each other in a peripheral bus. It has the capability to deliver high bandwidth, starting at 10 Gbps, with the potential ability to scale to 100 Gbps. It is intended as a single universal replacement for current buses such as SCSI, SATA, USB, FireWire, and HDMI. In comparison to these buses, Light Peak is much faster, longer ranged, smaller, and more flexible in terms of protocol support."
Old 20th November 2009
  #262
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacenik View Post
"So what protocol"....
How about Intel/Apples planned Light Peak...

Not sure when but it sure sounds latency, logjam & future proof and should work on a laptop as well as a tower

Light Peak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Light Peak is Intel's code-name for a new high-speed optical cable technology designed to connect electronic devices to each other in a peripheral bus. It has the capability to deliver high bandwidth, starting at 10 Gbps, with the potential ability to scale to 100 Gbps. It is intended as a single universal replacement for current buses such as SCSI, SATA, USB, FireWire, and HDMI. In comparison to these buses, Light Peak is much faster, longer ranged, smaller, and more flexible in terms of protocol support."
Seems promising but when can we actually see it on a computer? And then how much longer can Digi wait to release their product that (again) requires a new computer. Although most PPC users wouldn't mind that. But now they're screwing the early adopters who did the cross-grade. What a mess.
Old 20th November 2009
  #263
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But now they're screwing the early adopters who did the cross-grade. What a mess.
How are they doing that? Specifics? or is this just a blanket statement?
Old 20th November 2009
  #264
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jamwerks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DP40oz View Post
If Pro Tools figures out a way to have the TDM architecture work more seamlessly with native processing power they will be set for years to come. For example allowing offline bounce, higher amounts of sample delay compensation and utilizing native all around in conjunction with TDM just a little better and it'll be unstoppable.
Yeah maybe something like the V3 Duende shared processing.
Old 20th November 2009
  #265
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C Heat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFunk View Post
That means they have to optimize the performance of RTAS. It also means they should probably include a freeze option, add more bundled plugs, etc. From what I've read here and other places, Digi is in the process of doing just this--making LE more competitive.
Yep. Good stop-gap at least.
Old 21st November 2009
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
No one else will ever hear it.
You can´t be shure.
30 years ago Neil Young was not aware his analog master tapes
ever would be rereleased on a 192 khz blue ray one day.
Want to say we should do our best we can to preserve sound.

I´m shure the era of bad music and bad sound will come to an end at some point.
Old 21st November 2009
  #267
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DontLetMeDrown's Avatar
 

People are paying $1500 for UAD quad cards. If Digi could release a new single card with HD3 DSP power (or more) for around $2k, even current HD users couldn't pass that up. Compared to their current pricing system, it would seem like a STEAL. Everyone and their grandma would jump on board. Just plug your current Digi interface into the newer card and you're good to go.

A man can dream, can't he?

Anyway, I'm anxious to see what they have up their sleeve. I bought a Lynx Aroura setup a few months back, so the current discount on HD systems is unattractive to me. Sonar keeps getting better with every new version. I love the flow of the PT software, but it's just not cost effective for me at the moment.
Old 21st November 2009
  #268
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
I've done "professional" mixes on LE at 96, so I'm sure I could do a "professional" mix on an HD3 too I don't normally work at 96 because I see no value in the final result except the playback in the control room. No one else will ever hear it.



TH

Never say never,
I had band I recorded 11 years ago - they got signed. Now the record company is paying 5 times the original project budget just to do a remix.
You just never know what's down the road.
Old 21st November 2009
  #269
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hipass View Post
How are they doing that? Specifics? or is this just a blanket statement?
If they released a new box that required a new protocol which would require a new computer, they'd be screwing people who are doing the cross-grade now.

But it's all hypothetical based on something that doesn't exist yet.
Old 21st November 2009
  #270
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SoundEng1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown View Post
People are paying $1500 for UAD quad cards. If Digi could release a new single card with HD3 DSP power (or more) for around $2k, even current HD users couldn't pass that up. Compared to their current pricing system, it would seem like a STEAL. Everyone and their grandma would jump on board. Just plug your current Digi interface into the newer card and you're good to go.
Yep, thumbsup
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