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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 18th November 2009
  #181
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Quote:
Doesn't everybody's financials currently look like this??
Old 18th November 2009
  #182
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A LOT of Avid's customers look like that.
Old 18th November 2009
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zacheus83 View Post
Doesn't everybody's financials currently look like this??
AAPL: Basic Chart for Apple Inc. - Yahoo! Finance

---


I think this discussion to some degree has made a false impression that there are two groups if users; hobbyists and people involved in multi-million movie productions. The biggest group of PTHD users exist between these two poles. Also, DAW users aren't either musicians, producers, engineers or studio owners anymore. The biggest group of DAW users are probably those who are a little of each. Musicians record themselves, producers don't need to hire external studios anymore and so on.


Engineers often have laptop DAWs as well, just like musicians and producers, and many studios have one main rig plus several smaller rigs. It doesn't really matter how professional Avid wants to be - like everyone else, they simply can't afford to ignore the biggest group of DAW users out there, and that's definitely not people owning studios charging $200/hour or Hollywood production companies.

There has been a big second had PTHD market out there for several years, and whether this is because studios are closing down or because PTHD also have been used a lot in home studios by people who have gone native doesn't really matter: Avid has to adjust to the situation - and finally already have, by offering PTHD for half price. That will give them some cash, but it will also saturate the market even more before they launch whatever they are working on.

As much as I think Avid would have hoped that the revolutionary development in terms of processing power wouldn't have happened, they have no choice but to adjust their product range to this development - which btw still is accelerating.
Old 18th November 2009
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Let's be honest here apple/logic employee. That apple curve has nothing to do with Logic or Final Cut so it's irrelevant. The apple upturn is from iPods, iTunes, iPhones. Mostly from iTunes who has surpassed Walmart as the #1 music retailer. iTunes Store Top Music Retailer in the US
Old 18th November 2009
  #185
I've owned two turn key TDM systems -PTIII w/ three farm cards and then a mix plus system with two farm cards. I swore after my last system I would not buy another pro-tools rig... I just could not take all the nickle and diming and elitist "customer support"... I'm gald I'm largely free...

Well - I have an 003R LE set up, just for moving files via digitranslator to OMFs - back and forth to from every format - Logic, Sonar... whatever.

Native systems make it really... I mean really hard to justify an HD rig for anyone other than front line pro commericial studios.

Here in LA there seems to be a split system - most producers are using either Logic or Cubase at home studio/laptop and then transfering those tracks into HD for the big studio day sessions.

Final mixes are also usually done in HD in a big room - but tons of pre-production is being done on native systems and HD is becoming more/less a "standard of delivery".

I think as more native systems have robust delivery output options for stems - ProTools is loosing it's grip.

Sonar is amazing - I can deliver stems with mix dynamics or without - I can delivery effectively whatever most clients need - everything from raw OMF's to mixed stems in any concievable way.
Old 18th November 2009
  #186
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Hi Konkaos, I simply posted a reply to a specific question about 'everybody's financials' (and I'm not an Apple/Logic employee). Lots of Apple's money come from iPods etc., but this still contributes to making Apple a strong company (financially).

That doesn't only have to be a good thing, though. If Apple makes more money than they otherwise could have made by not employing and training a proper support staff for Logic, it's definitely also a bad thing. If Avid in these turbulent times provides better DAW support than Apple, thats 1-0 to Avid, not to Apple.

IMHO Apple are still doing at least two things right which Avid haven't been doing (talking about their DAWs here), and that is to increase their profit by reducing their prices, and to tune 100% in to the fact that computers are powerful enough today to do the kind of work most of us do without extra cards, expansion chassises.

Apparently Apple sold more computers the last quarter than they ever have done, and if it's correct about Apple computers being extremely overpriced, those sales obviously must generate a lot of cash as well. I'm sure they do whether they are overpriced or not. But again... (unfortunately) I'm not seeing any of this money. :-)

Another thing is that since Avid seem to be struggling, they could end up working a lot harder to impress their customers than Apple has to do, since they already are drowning in cash.
Old 18th November 2009
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
AAPL: Basic Chart for Apple Inc. - Yahoo! Finance

--- [...snip...]

As much as I think Avid would have hoped that the revolutionary development in terms of processing power wouldn't have happened, they have no choice but to adjust their product range to this development - which btw still is accelerating.
I agree Avid cannot and should not overlook the hybrid setup. It's obvious people (including myself) are fed up with the lack of customer support and specifics that are included in other software Daw's AND hardware pieces

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkaos View Post
Let's be honest here apple/logic employee. That apple curve has nothing to do with Logic or Final Cut so it's irrelevant. The apple upturn is from iPods, iTunes, iPhones. Mostly from iTunes who has surpassed Walmart as the #1 music retailer. iTunes Store Top Music Retailer in the US
I do agree with Konkaos that comparing Apple's bottom line to Avid's is not comparing Apples to Apples (pun intended ). Itunes alone probably generates more than HD rig sales year to year.
Old 18th November 2009
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Hi Konkaos, I simply posted a reply to a specific question about 'everybody's financials' (and I'm not an Apple/Logic employee). Lots of Apple's money come from iPods etc., but this still contributes to making Apple a strong company (financially).

That doesn't only have to be a good thing, though. If Apple makes more money than they otherwise could have made by not employing and training a proper support staff for Logic, it's definitely also a bad thing. If Avid in these turbulent times provides better DAW support than Apple, thats 1-0 to Avid, not to Apple.

IMHO Apple are still doing at least two things right which Avid haven't been doing (talking about their DAWs here), and that is to increase their profit by reducing their prices, and to tune 100% in to the fact that computers are powerful enough today to do the kind of work most of us do without extra cards, expansion chassises.

Apparently Apple sold more computers the last quarter than they ever have done, and if it's correct about Apple computers being extremely overpriced, those sales obviously must generate a lot of cash as well. I'm sure they do whether they are overpriced or not. But again... (unfortunately) I'm not seeing any of this money. :-)

Another thing is that since Avid seem to be struggling, they could end up working a lot harder to impress their customers than Apple has to do, since they already are drowning in cash.
But this argument is interesting in that, according to you, Apple is selling cheaper products, yet in the same sentence, their computers are overpriced? How is that possible? Logic as far as I know only works on overpriced macs and not on PC's, so... People are buying overpriced mac's to get cheaper software? Maybe this is not what you mean to say.

Avid had more than 75% of it's products catered towards high end customers... With LE there is a focus on the lower end consumer... While the only thing that Apple makes that's "High End" is it's computers and Logic, and Final Cut.

All of the companies want buyers to spend money on their most expensive products, so they will always put the most value in those products. Avid would in your opinion be choosing to abandon that valuable product to focus on competing with a company that caters to the middle of the market (Apple's most expensive products). Yes Avid should compete, but they're not going to give everything away just to make their bottom line look like Apple's. You're right when you say that they should, only that I believe they won't because then it would make their high end obsolete

Last edited by zacheus83; 18th November 2009 at 08:18 AM.. Reason: had to add the last sentence!
Old 18th November 2009
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
IMHO Apple are still doing at least two things right which Avid haven't been doing (talking about their DAWs here), and that is to increase their profit by reducing their prices
What we are talking here is Logic & Final Cut vs Avid/ HD correct? The only prices they have reduced are Logic and Final Cut. Everything else is high in the sky. You know for a fact that Logic and Final Cut don't have even the remote minuscule affect on Apple's profits and are in no way responsible for their massive increase. Most kids dont even pay for either one as you can just go around and install them on as many Macs as you like. One reason they are so popular- no copy protection. They are basically giveaways to rope you in to the high priced Mac Pro/Macbook Pro.

I use HD, Logic, Samplitude daily but have no illusions on the business strategies of either company. Even though I dont have the slightest idea what kind of strategy Avid is using. They remind me of the major labels who ignored the internet/mp3 threat
Old 18th November 2009
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konkaos View Post
What we are talking here is Logic & Final Cut vs Avid/ HD correct? The only prices they have reduced are Logic and Final Cut. Everything else is high in the sky. You know for a fact that Logic and Final Cut don't have even the remote minuscule affect on Apple's profits and are in no way responsible for their massive increase. Most kids dont even pay for either one as you can just go around and install them on as many Macs as you like. One reason they are so popular- no copy protection. They are basically giveaways to rope you in to the high priced Mac Pro/Macbook Pro.
With a million sold FCP licenses, FCP generates both money, computer sales and all that, and the number of Logic users were 200,000 already before Apple took over, so it's a lot higher now. But - but all this has been discussed before. Some people are worried that Avid will go down the drain, but I'm sure PT will survive whatever happens.
Old 18th November 2009
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zacheus83 View Post
But this argument is interesting in that, according to you, Apple is selling cheaper products, yet in the same sentence, their computers are overpriced?
According to some people, Apple's computers are overpriced, according to others, they are not, hence the "if it's correct"... Nobody claimed that Logic (still talking about DAWs) is overpriced, it's generally known to be 'underpriced' - and to generate computer sales.

Since Apple has so much money, they probably could have sold their computers cheaper, but: if Avid wouldn't have kept the PTHD prices on what seems to be an artificially high level, they may have sold more/made more money by reducing prices etc etc.... but all this is kind of irrelevant to this thread, other than that Avid, like everyone else need to adjust to the fact that other products exist and that processing power becomes cheaper every year. And by the way, it's also a 50% chance that my assumptions are wrong. :-)




Quote:
You're right when you say that they should, only that I believe they won't because then it would make their high end obsolete
I guess nobody really knows. There's a thread about the new Lexicon reverb plugin here, and it seems that they would have made more money by reducing the price (down from $1799 or whatever to less than $1000). The same could be true for Avid, but Avid knows more about Avid than I do, and maybe they are doing just fine. Maybe they simply could afford to keep the PTHD prices that high for so long time. I truly don't know, but from the outside, it seems that they are charging $4000 for the PTHD software and $4000 for the HD core system (list), and that seems overpriced since all DAWs are getting so close nowadays (in terms of software features, latency, DSP access etc ). Everybody would lose from stalled PT development, including other DAW users, so let's hope Avid is doing fine.
Old 18th November 2009
  #192
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I understand that this is a marketing movie, but still, the editor guys are real pros, and some their senctences are dead on.
Ellen Welcomes Back Avid Media Composer on Vimeo

Again, take it as it is, but audiowise we were in the same boat. In the long run, somewhat pricier (pt) made out exactly cheaper, because there is virtually no downtime, no compatibility problems. Rigs works as they should, so I say predictibility and stability.

TD
Old 18th November 2009
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipass View Post
Apple share is 10% Apple market share tops 10%, Windows share lowest since tracking began

Which in terms of comparison the auto market it's much larger than BMW market share

Much larger share in Film/Music/Desktop Publishing where it overwhelming Apple.

I could go but my research and consulting rate is $100/hour
As your results confirms it has very small market share. The University I work for its pretty much 100% Mac for audio/video production but across the University as a whole it would be around 90% Windows. That aint going to change anytime soon (if ever).
Old 18th November 2009
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uvc1977 View Post
As your results confirms it has very small market share. The University I work for its pretty much 100% Mac for audio/video production but across the University as a whole it would be around 90% Windows. That aint going to change anytime soon (if ever).
Apple has 91% of market for $1,000+ PCs, says NPD | Betanews

Old 18th November 2009
  #195
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Some of us are old enough to rememeber how AVID and Digi started out producing consumer products because at the time, even with DSP cards, Macs and PCs couldn't do much more.

With time and faster PCs, Media Composer and PTHD replaced older systems and became the standard. Now those same faster Macs and PCs that made possible for AVID to be Pro, are allowing others to offer similar Pro stuff at a 1/10 of the price (FCP, Logic, Nuendo, SSL, Pyramix...).

The question is, can AVID still charge 10 times more for the same stuff, when there ARE alternatives, which btw have been dramatically eroding AVID marketshare in the last few years?
Will PTHD users spend 10k-20k to upgrade their older systems next year, when the competition is in everybody's computers ALREADY, and offer the same features for just 2.5k for the whole package (DAW+Interface+A/D/A)?
Old 18th November 2009
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
If the mixing actually happen in the TDM chips, and not in the OS, how is this even possible?
And - if it's true, why is there only a very small fraction of the PT users out there who use WIndows?
The question is: do you know what make the DAW and sound device aloud and finish the calculation of the mixing? It's the driver! Different OS cause different drivers and then different sound. There are only a very small fraction of the PT users use Windows because most of the PT users think like you.
Old 18th November 2009
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinghand View Post
The question is: do you know what make the DAW and sound device aloud and finish the calculation of the mixing? It's the driver! Different OS cause different drivers and then different sound. There are only a very small fraction of the PT users use Windows because most of the PT users think like you.
Old 18th November 2009
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinghand View Post
The question is: do you know what make the DAW and sound device aloud and finish the calculation of the mixing? It's the driver! Different OS cause different drivers and then different sound. There are only a very small fraction of the PT users use Windows because most of the PT users think like you.
Old 18th November 2009
  #199
Gear Maniac
If both of you at post #197 and 198 can put forward your opiniouns to proove I'm wrong, please tell me. Thanks.

I am serious. Because I did make the blind test 2 years ago and over 100 people were in. 78% of them thought the sound bouced from Windows Protools is sound nicer the one from MAC. Of course, they didn't know which is which before they voted. They are surprised just like you. but, It's true.
Old 18th November 2009
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinghand View Post
If both of you at post #197 and 198 can put forward your opiniouns to proove I'm wrong, please tell me. Thanks.

I am serious. Because I did make the blind test 2 years ago and over 100 people were in. 78% of them thought the sound bouced from Windows Protools is sound nicer the one from MAC. Of course, they didn't know which is which before they voted. They are surprised just like you. but, It's true.
the onus is you to prove you're right im afraid - you're in mad land on that one !!

Oh - and I dont believe you - not without seeing your test and your actual results. Adding up and quantifying aint stats - and aint proof. For math proof and to be able to quantify it I'd need to see a distribution of peoples SCORES of sound quality between the two. THEN you can quote better or worse - not "which is the one you like".
Old 18th November 2009
  #201
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just do it already!`

go drop your savings on the LE TO hd2 hardware exchange and just accept that free 192 with open arms. they're always going to be a small-budget consumer group of le/logic/etc. and a more professional highbudget group using only HD. I dont care what anyone says about ptle- compared to logic PTLE totally owns. logic is garbage and no one in any legit studio around the world would solely rely on that bull****!

But between LE & HD, personally I think digi is not selling **** right now and is trying to capture as many top-end le users into the hd club with their current promo. if you've ever rocked 100 tracks of music on a tdm setup vs. submixing down to 48 tracks while changing your playback to 1024 on an LE setup, then you know what's up. they both function, but only one is sturdy and reliable for everyday work with artists and people with no attention span, no compassion for your computer, and who dont like to be told to hold on.


make the leap LE users! DO IT WHILE YOU CAN!!!!!
Old 18th November 2009
  #202
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although this stuff borderline sci-fi, i have to admit that a few years ago when i was going through that "which daw is better sounding?" - phase, i came to the normative conclusion that if they null out then they sound the same.
but my ears kept insisting and telling me that the daw's don't sound the same. eventually i did some interesting test and switched the daw between 2 asio drivers going to the same converter that i had in my computer.
the sound i got through the usb port into the converter was vastly different than the one i got going trough the spdif out and into the same converter.
when i mentioned this here in gearslutz i got responses that said it's imposable since the drivers don't have any sound of them self and they just pass audio. however with my unscientific ears i keep hearing a big difference weather the audio goes through asio or protools protocol through the same converter. even if you open the same mix in cubae and in media player there is a really obvious difference. so you can make funny icons but i believe this subject is not loony town ground and shoud be considered as a serious factor to the difference sound that comes out from different daw's
Old 18th November 2009
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zacheus83 View Post
Doesn't everybody's financials currently look like this??
stock price doesnt necessarily reflect the financials. The market determines that price. But I agree the company is suffering from years of bad decisions.
Old 18th November 2009
  #204
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From a LE vs the world standpoint:

Midi and VI's weren't really important to Digi when LE was introduced. Nor was mobile/laptop recording/composing. Logic and Cubase owned the midi (producing/composing) market and Digi took the DIY recording market with LE.

In the last few years you see all these things getting merged. Bands want to incorporate VI's in their session and midi based producers are incorporating more and more live audio in their projects. And although I applaud the great aditions that Digi made to PT8, it's still a "Light edition" product.

They've been holding on to their "we want LE users to move up to HD at some point" adagium. That's nice and all, but until I can put a HD system in my backpack with my laptop I'm not interested...

The world is changing. Avid should recognize that. There will always be a market for 200+ tracks, 0% downtime tollerance, Hardware based, multi million dollar project facilities. Making a true Pro Tools native isn't gonna change that. Nor will it eat into that market.

Reform LE into a true Logic Pro, Cubendo competitor. They've got the name. All they need is the product to match that...

I might not be a 50K customer, but that doesn't mean I don't want to be taken seriously. For a single person coughing up 5K took just as much hard work. If not more. So stop feeding me "Light Editions" Whether it's pt LE, structure LE or eleven LE. Especially the last one is ridiculous since feature wise it is the same as the TDM version. Their marketing department needs to get their act together...

Anyway... my 2c
Old 18th November 2009
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolooki View Post
logic is garbage and no one in any legit studio around the world would solely rely on that bull****!
Tell that to Mike Oldfield, Peter Gabriel, Radiohead, Sting, ...etc etc

Logic and Nuendo are used nowadays as much as PTHD. PTHD is quicker as a 'tape machine' and it's the standard (just like DASH was). That's all.
Old 18th November 2009
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinghand View Post
If both of you at post #197 and 198 can put forward your opiniouns to proove I'm wrong, please tell me. Thanks.

I am serious. Because I did make the blind test 2 years ago and over 100 people were in. 78% of them thought the sound bouced from Windows Protools is sound nicer the one from MAC. Of course, they didn't know which is which before they voted. They are surprised just like you. but, It's true.
With all due respect... I found it hard to believe. I'm pretty sure that - all other things being equal- the files would null... But I could be wrong and I'm open to hear your samples. I'm sure you'll keep them after doing such an extensive test field.
Old 18th November 2009
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavano View Post
...Reform LE into a true Logic Pro, Cubendo competitor.
If you buy the complete toolkit option, it is very competitive when used on a laptop.
Old 18th November 2009
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
I'm quite positive that there are many excellent coders working in India. The thing to acknowledge is that the way PT currently works and functions in at least a small part is a product of the culture it came from - which influenced the way it was coded. The question for the future is whether shifting coding from its current culture will make any noticeable effect on its development and functionality (either positive or negative). It is indeed hard to find people who are the rare combo of coders, audio engineers and musicians all at the same time - which a number of folks who have or will exit Digi soon in fact are.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
i agree w/ you.
the break up of that rare combo is what scares me.
Old 18th November 2009
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
Tell that to Mike Oldfield, Peter Gabriel, Radiohead, Sting, ...etc etc

Logic and Nuendo are used nowadays as much as PTHD. PTHD is quicker as a 'tape machine' and it's the standard (just like DASH was). That's all.
Sting & Peter Gabriel.

They are using logic to compose.
Non the less PT still is being used for tracking and mixing.
Old 18th November 2009
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
Tell that to Mike Oldfield, Peter Gabriel, Radiohead, Sting, ...etc etc

Logic and Nuendo are used nowadays as much as PTHD. PTHD is quicker as a 'tape machine' and it's the standard (just like DASH was). That's all.
And don't forget about Frampton. I remember he was on the Bob and Tom show some years ago and was just raving about Nuendo.

Peter Frampton Interview | Peter Frampton's first instrumental CD, Fingerprints | Electronic Musician interview with Peter Frampton
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