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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 17th November 2009
  #151
mds
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I don't really want to go into it to much here, but let me say this:

I've used a lot of DAWs over my career but since I moved to LA I've primarily used Pro Tools. I did a remote this week and picked up an Ensemble to give it a shot and recorded in Logic. Logic has lots of cool features, nice integration with the system, cool instruments, great MIDI implementation, etc. but it isn't even close to PT in terms of editing flow. Crossfade procedure is terrible, no 'supertool', playback controls are clunky (e.g. can't play from same spot without setting locator), no way to see dual mono waveforms on a stereo track, zoom function is unintelligent(doesn't zoom where I'm working)...I can go on...people who disagree with this probably don't do as precise, complex, and anal of edits as I often have to do in my work.

It also has showstopping bugs in it, e.g. copy a file from one session to another? If it has the same file name Logic will just keep the old file in there...some of the time. Very scary bug that makes it REALLY easy to get the wrong take in there, editing the wrong music, etc. I have to be VERY careful to rename every region (oh yeah, no region renaming without rewriting the file, lame).

There are also big time missing features, at least in Logic 8. No import session feature? In PT I can import any track or setting from another session and it just shows up in my new session as if it was born there. In Logic I have to export OMFs, rewrite every single audio file, and THEN import from there...also no "Set Current time Code" feature...

This stuff is just the beginning for me, and is why I can't leave Pro Tools. I work in major motion pictures and big budget record projects. Some of these sessions are HUGE. I have to have some of these functions and I can't have bugs that mess with my audio. I like Logic, and hope it continues to improve, but in my work Pro Tools is still required...this may not be true for millions of do-it-yourselfers, but working in the Film and Music industries in Hollywood keeps me attached to Digidesign...whether I like it or not. :-)

Mike
Old 17th November 2009
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
One of the biggest Avid video shops here has basically closed, gone out of business, and all the staff have set up small editing suites in their houses and forced themselves to learn Final Cut so they could still have income.

People are amazed that Avid's sales in the video sector are half of what they were a year ago.
....and: a little more than a year ago, Apple announced that they had sold more than a million FCP licenses. Apple took 49 percent of the US professional editing market in 2007, while Avid took just 22 percent, according to this link.

If FCP had 49% of the pro video editing market in US already in 2007 and some of you haven't heard about it in 2009, I'm not surprised that some DAW users haven't heard about people switching from PTHD to other DAWs either! :-) Disclaimer: nobody really said that they hadn't heard about massive amounts of editors switching from Avid to FCP, but while this move started, lots of Avid users were more or less denying it as well.

Anyway, kudos to Avid for being so brave that they will use the Avid name for future PT products as well; a name already associated with market loss. They are more brave than I would have been.
Old 17th November 2009
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mds View Post
Crossfade procedure is terrible, no 'supertool', playback controls are clunky (e.g. can't play from same spot without setting locator), no way to see dual mono waveforms on a stereo track, zoom function is unintelligent(doesn't zoom where I'm working)...
Logic 9 has multitool functionality, zoom works as it should (don't select a region, and Logic zooms in around the playhead - or select (a) region(s), and Logic will zoom in on the selected region(s)), and there are several ways of playing back from the same spot you just played back from. Are you referring to Logic 8?



Quote:
It also has showstopping bugs in it, e.g. copy a file from one session to another? If it has the same file name Logic will just keep the old file in there...
There was a scary bug in Logic that I don't know if has been fixed; if there's only one file in your system with a given name, and a session wants a file with that name it imports that file as long as the name is the same, even if the file length etc. is different.


Quote:
There are also big time missing features, at least in Logic 8. No import session feature? In PT I can import any track or setting from another session and it just shows up in my new session as if it was born there.
OK; so you are referring to L8. :-)

Logic 9 has selective track import... check the video called "The power of simplicity" under this link. OTOH, Pro Tools had it first, and also had Elastic Time before Logic (but not before other DAWs). Let's see what PT9 and Logic 10 will bring.

The "DAW war" is more and more about software differences, and I think this fact will determine the way PT and all the others develop.
Old 17th November 2009
  #154
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Yeah, I knew that this thread will be just another "i know the truth, not you" type one.
It's sad, Kenny didn't start it for this...

Really any proof for this developer story in India? Any know how capable the developers are at India anyway?

TD
Old 17th November 2009
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
Yeah, I knew that this thread will be just another "i know the truth, not you" type one.
It's sad, Kenny didn't start it for this...

Really any proof for this developer story in India? Any know how capable the developers are at India anyway?

TD
Good question - I dunno, but I do know that they're cheaper, probably way cheaper and Avid has that part figured out, I recken..
Old 17th November 2009
  #156
mds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Logic 9 has multitool functionality, zoom works as it should (don't select a region, and Logic zooms in around the playhead - or select (a) region(s), and Logic will zoom in on the selected region(s)), and there are several ways of playing back from the same spot you just payed back from. Are you referring to Logic 8?



There was a scary bug in Logic that I don't know if has been fixed; if there's only one file in your system with a given name, and a session wants a file with that name it imports that file as long as the name is the same, even if the file length etc. is different.


OK; so you are referring to L8. :-)

Logic 9 has selective track import... check the video called "The power of simplicity" under this link. OTOH, Pro Tools had it first, and also had Elastic Time before Logic (but not before other DAWs). Let's see what PT9 and Logic 10 will bring.

The "DAW war" is more and more about software differences, and I think this fact will determine the way PT and all the others develop.
Thanks for the comments...I've been meaning to try out Logic 9. I find 8 to be just okay...I definitely think the "DAW Wars" are benefiting the users. Logic forced Digidesign to put out some VIs, improve MIDI implementation, and improve their interface(IMO, anyways). Digi has forced Logic to address a lot of audio issues, simplify their UI, etc. Its good for all of us...

What I REALLY would like is a way to use Apogee's interfaces in Pro Tools...love those Ensembles and Duets...maybe this is more of the core issue. PT vs Logic isn't the problem for Digidesign as much as the hardware is, imo. If Digi made hardware comparable to the Ensemble, Metric Halo, etc. they'd have a stronger arguement in the LE arena...
Old 17th November 2009
  #157
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
One of the biggest Avid video shops here has basically closed, gone out of business, ...
As has every other town's post business outside of a small area in North Hollywood. Still the folks I've talked to prefer Avid even if they're stuck with just FCP for financial reasons. This is why Avid is still selling a few systems. Tascam half inch eight tracks never displaced 2" machines yet I'm sure there were many times as many in use.
Old 17th November 2009
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
erm - yes it would. I work in movies/sync and if you arent PT conversant you pretty much cant play!! I wouldn't NOT employ someone because they don't have PT - but all projects going through my company are in PT at some stage or another. As for commercial music - nearly all major label sanctioned mixes demand stems in PT format.....

so your tutt tutt is unfounded - I manage these darn things !!
There are lots of post houses that are FCP, tens of thousands of them. Is Bollywood Avid based, I don't know but I wouldn't think so. And Bollywood is bigger than Hollywood.

Futhermore, you're in post (maybe .01% of total users). I know around 50 film music composers, and I think 10-15 use PT. Music is composed, arranged and recorded on things other that PT
Old 17th November 2009
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You know I haven't heard of anybody selling a five year old state of the art Avid or HD system and replacing it with Final Cut or Logic.
Where is the abundance of the 2nd hand stuff that's currently available coming from then ?
Old 17th November 2009
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
Where is the abundance of the 2nd hand stuff that's currently available coming from then ?
Studios folding.
Old 17th November 2009
  #161
Gear Head
 

as (french) user of PTLE, I start to move more and more towards.... Ableton Live, even to record song writting . no techno or "boom boom , 4 loops and here's my song" . No, I mean record, multi trak recording, edit deeply, fades, move, moves blocks etc.... And mixing, deeply too, automation etc ...

I run on both PTLE 7. 4 and LIve8, and the main reason I quit is :

No ADC in PTLE. try to insert a PSP vintage warmer (2048 samples of latency) and your session turns crazy. move back your audio file(s) and change your mind, move it to original place , what a hell

UAD2 doesn't runs corectly, same pita


Yes, I miss the play list, the mixing desk is more esay in PTLE, I miss my McDSP plugs ( the last plugs WITHOUT vst version , wake up Collin or Mc DSP won't grow anymore).

I win :

ADC
UAD2
So easy with Live to assign any midi fader ou knob to any soft control


So wake up too Digi guys, as a modest, but semi -pro user (since 2000), I am not happy anymore with PTLE.

JB
Old 17th November 2009
  #162
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
There are lots of post houses that are FCP, tens of thousands of them. Is Bollywood Avid based, I don't know but I wouldn't think so. And Bollywood is bigger than Hollywood.

Futhermore, you're in post (maybe .01% of total users). I know around 50 film music composers, and I think 10-15 use PT. Music is composed, arranged and recorded on things other that PT
possibly - but we're not discussing users - we're discussing pro users. I work in the biggest area of recording as far a fiscal contribution to our industry. In the financial sector there aren't thousands of post houses!! I mix and produce music for a variety of groups - but the biggest sector by a long way is the visual media sector... And I can assure you - there are far more people earning money in this area than music studios !!

SO yes - .1% of total users - but probably a quarter of professional users! Mixing soundtrack and post is FAR bigger than music - by an order of professional magnitude. Once you take all the hobbyists out of the equation !! Only in soundtracks and post do you get thirty or so people working on the audio alone. Fidn a band that does that! I have often up to six people on 6 {or more!!} DAWs working at the same time on one project.... and in the scheme of things we're TINY!!

Bollywood Avid? dunno - I know some are....it's not a finance starved sector!

As for film composers - what they compose in has very little do to with what their music ends up in. As i mentioned - it can get composed however you like - but it gets recorded at Abbey Road in PT. It also gets mixed in it -

At the moment I'm doing archive for syncs of hundreds of classic tracks from many labels. I get two things delivered to me - tapes or PT session. Out of the 1100 or so delivered so far it's all been those two formats. NO others. AT ALL.

When it comes to mixing soundtrack - EVERY composer I've worked with send PT sessions or which ever DAW bounce outs. Nobody ever sends Nuendo or Logic sessions.... Most houses {such as Fox etc} wont accept anything else.

As for FCP - FFS i've got 11 licenses!! More than PT - just to edit video sections together when we need to. One license on nearly every Mac here.... and we're DEFINITELY not professional users of THAT product since we dont do video!!
Old 17th November 2009
  #163
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
And I can assure you - there are far more people earning money in this area than music studios !!
this is the key fact of that post, especially as it relates to Avid's "next move," as it were. There are far more paying customers in post than there are in music - music is a dwindling market, and post isn't. it makes sense to get rid of the Digidesign branding for sure when you think about it from this perspective.
Old 17th November 2009
  #164
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Most pros doing MIDI compositions have been using something else all along. Digi is not losing sales to them.
Old 17th November 2009
  #165
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jordan s's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff16years View Post
I am so sick of people "claiming" to have inside information that they are keeping from us by making statements like this.

unless you can give us this information or say how you have it, i'm calling bull****. i think you don't know any more than the rest of us.

no personal offense intended Jordan.
The people who have privileged information can not casually spill it by blabbing around the internet. Have you ever heard of an NDA? I never claimed to be a big shot, and I'm not. All I can tell you from what I DO for a fact know is that I am personally excited for the future plans but I am disappointed to say I won't be with the company long enough to see them through.
Old 17th November 2009
  #166
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal3 View Post
this is the key fact of that post, especially as it relates to Avid's "next move," as it were. There are far more paying customers in post than there are in music - music is a dwindling market, and post isn't. it makes sense to get rid of the Digidesign branding for sure when you think about it from this perspective.
hah! I think that was what I was trying to say - but you said it so much more economically ! toppo !

And yes to Bob.thumbsup
Old 17th November 2009
  #167
mds
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Most pros doing MIDI compositions have been using something else all along. Digi is not losing sales to them.
If anything they're gaining customers as they improve the MIDI side....PT8 is their biggest leap yet in this department and it is sure to pick up at least a few customers...
Old 17th November 2009
  #168
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkaos View Post
plans for next few years? If they don't answer apple in the next year......



Quite sure most of that is iPod, iTunes, iPhone related. They are a very smartly run company that finds the holes in the markets and attacks w/ a tight focus.
You have it backwards. Logic answered PT, by adding it's Elastic Time stuff. Not the opposite

TH
Old 17th November 2009
  #169
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal3 View Post
this is the key fact of that post, especially as it relates to Avid's "next move," as it were. There are far more paying customers in post than there are in music - music is a dwindling market, and post isn't. it makes sense to get rid of the Digidesign branding for sure when you think about it from this perspective.
That just can't be true, with the thousands and thousands of home studios out there, musicians have to be a larger market than post houses.

TH
Old 17th November 2009
  #170
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mds View Post
If anything they're gaining customers as they improve the MIDI side....PT8 is their biggest leap yet in this department and it is sure to pick up at least a few customers...
But more and more are taking PT8 seriously because of the improvements. What is holding them off is the lack of RTAS efficiency, and as Digidesign has stated, that is being addressed.

TH
Old 18th November 2009
  #171
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
That just can't be true, with the thousands and thousands of home studios out there, musicians have to be a larger market than post houses.

TH
we're pretty much talking about the professional market place - the home studio market doesn't want the same tools that professionals need at all. When you're talking about areas that generate money for an industry the home studio market may have the largest amount of users but they account for a tiny amount of total tools spending and fiscal generation. Avid {and Digi} dont really cater that much for the home market - i mean who loves Mbox eh?heh. Their main client base is the professional marketplace and that is where the largest part of their financial input comes from. In terms of which users generate the most capital in the industry - it's post users. When I work on a post project or a score mix it's contributing to a product that may typically rake in $100 million.... well on the high budget stuff anyway!!
Old 18th November 2009
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
...with the thousands and thousands of home studios out there, musicians have to be a larger market than post houses.
Music is second to photography as a hobby. Post houses probably dominate HD but I read somewhere that PTLE on Windoze is actually their largest group of users and quite possibly anybody's.
Old 18th November 2009
  #173
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff16years View Post
I am so sick of people "claiming" to have inside information that they are keeping from us by making statements like this.

unless you can give us this information or say how you have it, i'm calling bull****. i think you don't know any more than the rest of us.
OK OK

I have it on very good authority that the next Pro Tools system contains a revolutionary new processor that WILL give you the weekend off!
Old 18th November 2009
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
we're pretty much talking about the professional market place - the home studio market doesn't want the same tools that professionals need at all. When you're talking about areas that generate money for an industry the home studio market may have the largest amount of users but they account for a tiny amount of total tools spending and fiscal generation. Avid {and Digi} dont really cater that much for the home market - i mean who loves Mbox eh?heh. Their main client base is the professional marketplace and that is where the largest part of their financial input comes from. In terms of which users generate the most capital in the industry - it's post users. When I work on a post project or a score mix it's contributing to a product that may typically rake in $100 million.... well on the high budget stuff anyway!!
Well the project you are working on may generate 100 million but you aren't spending a 100 million at Avid

Plenty of HD systems in homes.
Most "professional" records you hear on the radio started at home and were maybe mixed in the big studio, or had drums or string overdubs done there. I just spoke with a Nashville engineer who tracked a major country release and asked him what they used on the vocals. He said "I have no idea, they did that stuff at the producer's house before they got here."

TH
Old 18th November 2009
  #175
... I also guarantee you that their profit margins on HD systems and related kit are WAY higher than their margins on LE gear at this point. And, when it comes to post vs. music - Avid has much less competition for the post market too, so probably a higher market share. What it translates to is more real dollars for them at the end of the quarter no matter how you slice it. Sure, there are probably more home studios by the numbers, but how many of these choose other platforms? How many spend no more than a couple hundred a year? How many just use their built-in soundcard and a copy of Reaper?

There are lots and lots of indie video types too, and there's a home market for that as well. The whole reason I got into this in the first place is that when I was younger I was making a film and I was told by someone I respected a lot that Pro Tools was the "only option" when it came to audio-for-video. At the time, said person never told me that there was an HD/LE gap/whatever. So I did some cursory research, bought the Mbox ... it was brand new. Seemed like a good deal at the time. I guarantee you I'm not alone.
Old 18th November 2009
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
OK OK

I have it on very good authority that the next Pro Tools system contains a revolutionary new processor that WILL give you the weekend off!
FPGA?
Old 18th November 2009
  #177
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hipass View Post
But that is no fault of Digidesign it's due to Apple not wanting to support 5+ year old hardware. I am not a Windows guy but does Window 7 support Pentium III's?
FWIW the cost for me to to upgrade my 6 card protools rig was 2K for a Magma chassis
(not counting the cost of a Mac Pro)
And I am pretty sure that leaves me OK when the The next version of Protools comes out.
Plus nobody is FORCING you to upgrade I know plenty of users on Mix with 6.4.1
I'm not saying it's Digidesign's fault. It's just what is.

Also, this is not about me personally. I'm making an observation as to the state of their situation. We're not "forced" to upgrade unless we want the new features. Which I assume Digidesign wants us to have. They don't make money if we all continue to use PT6.4. So that is a failure for them.
Old 18th November 2009
  #178
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Player1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
As has every other town's post business outside of a small area in North Hollywood. Still the folks I've talked to prefer Avid even if they're stuck with just FCP for financial reasons. This is why Avid is still selling a few systems. Tascam half inch eight tracks never displaced 2" machines yet I'm sure there were many times as many in use.
I've been doing audio post work for the past 16 years and about 95% of real budget projects came from avid based projects! As much as I can't stand them sometimes it does appear that much better project budgets seemed to be tied to avid edited systems. A lot of guys I've talk to using FCP always seem to be on a shoe string budget and will end up doing there own audio anyways! Like it or not, that's what cheap production gear can do for you, it makes everybody and editor or engineer and seems to keep lower and lower available budgets. Just food for thought!
Old 18th November 2009
  #179
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

More food for thought is the fact that the difference in price is pretty trivial compared to the cost of a day for any pro-level production employing union talent and crew. It is common to do rough cuts using a laptop on the set and I suspect many of these do employ FCP.

Bragging rights often seem to drive platform arguments.
Old 18th November 2009
  #180
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Will there be a next move?

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