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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 17th November 2009
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
How much is a system 5 mc with 24 faders street
compared to a 24 fader d-command ?
the system 5 is more comparable with the D-control


both are around £80k in the UK for similar faders etc...

but !! Occasionally see D controls going second hand for £25k with 48 faders. Never seen a system 5 second hand!!
Old 17th November 2009
  #122
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this 50/50 plan concerns me. not because there aren't excellent developers in India and Ukraine (there are), but because of what i'm reading into management's attitude that a developer is a developer is a developer.

i am a developer and also manage other developers. i would rather have one kick-ass developer than 5 okay ones, just as i would rather have one kick-ass engineer recording me than 5 okay ones.

managing off-site developers adds an additional layer of complexity, so with all else being equal i'd rather be in the same room. if Avid's management is treating developer management only as a numbers game, i think they're in for some trouble.

heck, i'd feel better about it if they were simply laying off 50% of their developer staff. at least then they have the opportunity to keep the good ones. in my experience, when a project is in trouble, the best thing to do is staff *down*, not up. fewer communication paths means those kick-ass developers can coordinate more easily and get the thing done.

all imho.
Old 17th November 2009
  #123
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There is some other perspective of these lay offs.
1.What if the development is some radically different from the past, and they are thinking they can get better developers for this new direction. (only speculation)
2. What if they choose to have sharc or other dsp, and get developers who have much higher background on those chips. (only speculation)

Of course we will only know this when new things will come. But imho if they somehow do what they did with air group, than it will be positive.
Till than, I use my rigs daily with great success!
TD
Old 17th November 2009
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Not using PT would preclude you from working in movies or commercial {as in pop} music.
tutt tutt
Old 17th November 2009
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uvc1977 View Post
Correction Apple has only a very small share of the worldwide computer market but I agree with the rest of your comments. I just bought a SSL Xlogic converter + MADI card to use with Logic/Cubase on my Mac Pro.
Apple share is 10% Apple market share tops 10%, Windows share lowest since tracking began

Which in terms of comparison the auto market it's much larger than BMW market share

Much larger share in Film/Music/Desktop Publishing where it overwhelming Apple.

I could go but my research and consulting rate is $100/hour
Old 17th November 2009
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uvc1977 View Post
Correction Apple has only a very small share of the worldwide computer market but I agree with the rest of your comments. I just bought a SSL Xlogic converter + MADI card to use with Logic/Cubase on my Mac Pro.
Apple share is 10% Apple market share tops 10%, Windows share lowest since tracking began

Which in terms of comparison the auto market it's much larger than BMW market share

Much larger share in Film/Music/Desktop Publishing where it overwhelming Apple.
Old 17th November 2009
  #127
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

You know I haven't heard of anybody selling a five year old state of the art Avid or HD system and replacing it with Final Cut or Logic. I've also never heard any editor say that they prefer Final Cut to Avid. This is not exactly a case of Avid losing a market to something people think is better. "As good but cheaper" is pretty meaningless to somebody who already has an HD or Avid system.
It's sort of like XP-Pro in the PeeCee world. It just came out that the only people buying windoze 7 are windoze Vista users and not XP users who are perfectly happy with what they've been using for eight years.

The fact is that most real pros are far more interested in getting the weekend off than they are in any new DAW or OS!
Old 17th November 2009
  #128
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The fact is that most real pros are far more interested in getting the weekend off than they are in any new DAW or OS!
Couldn't have said it better!! thumbsup

I'm an HD user and I really hope they keep it going. I'll tear my hair out if I have to switch to another DAW... I tried Logic and Cubase and didn't last more than 10 minutes on either.
Old 17th November 2009
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimv20 View Post
...in my experience, when a project is in trouble, the best thing to do is staff *down*, not up. fewer communication paths means those kick-ass developers can coordinate more easily and get the thing done...
That makes a lot of sense and they are advertising for high-powered engineering positions on their website.

The "outsource engineering to India theory" sure sounds like BS from disgruntled folks who got canned.
Old 17th November 2009
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Another point worth mentioning is that digidesign ICON surfaces offer a level of pro mixing and hardware integration which no other DAW manufacturer does.

I and probably most other ICON owners will stay with them for the next years whatever will happen for this very reason.
But they don't make money just because we stay with them. They need to sell us something. And I don't mean software upgrades.
Old 17th November 2009
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You know I haven't heard of anybody selling a five year old state of the art Avid or HD system and replacing it with Final Cut or Logic.
Excuse me, but what universe are you writing from? Here (planet Earth) tens of thousands have done just that........
Old 17th November 2009
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Given the complete absence of Mackie on the Avid/Digi website (the m-powered specs make no mention either), it would appear that the Mackie use of M-powered is unauthorised and unsupported, much like the use of Lynx/Apogee/Prism converters and HD cards.

So this really doesn't say anything other than another company has reverse engineered the system.
this is the case, its a reverse engineered product that could quite possibly loose functionality by and update much like palm pre loosing itunes sync although my contact at mackie says they cant loose it...
Old 17th November 2009
  #133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You know I haven't heard of anybody selling a five year old state of the art Avid or HD system and replacing it with Final Cut or Logic. I've also never heard any editor say that they prefer Final Cut to Avid. This is not exactly a case of Avid losing a market to something people think is better. "As good but cheaper" is pretty meaningless to somebody who already has an HD or Avid system.
It's sort of like XP-Pro in the PeeCee world. It just came out that the only people buying windoze 7 are windoze Vista users and not XP users who are perfectly happy with what they've been using for eight years.

The fact is that most real pros are far more interested in getting the weekend off than they are in any new DAW or OS!
Logic, no, definitely not, you're right about that.

Final Cut Pro on the other hand, yes indeed. Seen it lots. With FCP and good 3rd-party hardware there are zero advantages to an Avid system outside of compatibility with other Avid systems which in small to mid-sized operations that do all of their post in-house is generally unnecessary.

I'm not saying Avid edit systems have disappeared - far from it - but their market share has been hurt badly in pro video production by FCP.
Old 17th November 2009
  #134
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
tutt tutt

erm - yes it would. I work in movies/sync and if you arent PT conversant you pretty much cant play!! I wouldn't NOT employ someone because they don't have PT - but all projects going through my company are in PT at some stage or another. As for commercial music - nearly all major label sanctioned mixes demand stems in PT format.....

so your tutt tutt is unfounded - I manage these darn things !!
Old 17th November 2009
  #135
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
Excuse me, but what universe are you writing from? Here (planet Earth) tens of thousands have done just that........

an amazing part of the universe, it's called motown.
Old 17th November 2009
  #136
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
Excuse me, but what universe are you writing from? Here (planet Earth) tens of thousands have done just that........
Sorry I'm with Bob on this.... Final cut is the realm - like Logic - of the indies --- terminal3 above has it about right in fact. Avid systems are still the mainstay on nearly every major media mix I do - all my PT premixes, apart from a very few, are synced to Avid or similar systems at some stage or other. We're talking about the professional and money earning parts - not the fact that the majority of the artist led stuff has done what you said. The industry side is still very much HD etc dominated. I cant employ you as a freelancer if you dont PT HD simply because my clients demand it.
Old 17th November 2009
  #137
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You know I haven't heard of anybody selling a five year old state of the art Avid or HD system and replacing it with Final Cut or Logic. I've also never heard any editor say that they prefer Final Cut to Avid. This is not exactly a case of Avid losing a market to something people think is better. "As good but cheaper" is pretty meaningless to somebody who already has an HD or Avid system.
It's sort of like XP-Pro in the PeeCee world. It just came out that the only people buying windoze 7 are windoze Vista users and not XP users who are perfectly happy with what they've been using for eight years.

The fact is that most real pros are far more interested in getting the weekend off than they are in any new DAW or OS!
This is only partially true. If you own a stable HD system running on a non-Intel mac, you WILL be shut out from the next major Pro Tools version.

Do we need it? Who knows. But when you force your customers to upgrade and spend 6k - 8k in the process, you open up the possibility to a complete re-evaluation.

Including switching DAWs.
Old 17th November 2009
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Sorry I'm with Bob on this.... Final cut is the realm - like Logic - of the indies --- terminal3 above has it about right in fact. Avid systems are still the mainstay on nearly every major media mix I do - all my PT premixes, apart from a very few, are synced to Avid or similar systems at some stage or other. We're talking about the professional and money earning parts - not the fact that the majority of the artist led stuff has done what you said. The industry side is still very much HD etc dominated. I cant employ you as a freelancer if you dont PT HD simply because my clients demand it.
Old 17th November 2009
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
Excuse me, but what universe are you writing from? Here (planet Earth) tens of thousands have done just that........
I have yet to work in any facility here in the USA that was once an HD studio and when I returned is now a native system with HD gone. I do NYC, Miami, Atl, Chicago, LA regularly.
Old 17th November 2009
  #140
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Obviously, I have no inside information but I got into an interesting
conversation the other day with a friend and we were really puzzled by
what could or should be Digidesign's next move.

With Logic 8 and now 9, Apple has clearly tried to do what they did with
Final Cut Pro and even what Microsoft did to Netscape back in the day…

Make the software cheap enough that their competitors couldn't stay in
business. Squeeze 'em out. Years ago this wouldn't have mattered as a
native system couldn't really keep up. But the gap has certainly narrowed
dramatically these days.

Now Digidesign is in the Native game too but do they really want to be?
That's a game they can't control. Is Pro Tools LE really better than Logic?
At best, it's a matter of opinion. No longer a fact.

And Digidesign built it's reputation as being the standard, but as more and
more novices jump into the water (and they are at an alarming rate) that
could and probably will change. Which means Pro Tools feature set will have
to keep up with all other software as the "studio standard" badge they've
been wearing for so long will no longer be a selling point.

For now, the HD systems will still be home for the situations where budget
is not an issue. If you're doing post for a $350 million dollar movie, do you
care about blowing 30k on a system? Probably not. So Digidesign can probably
hold these clients as an HD9 system running on a Mac Pro 8 core will still kick
any native system's butt.

And at it's price point, Pro Tools LE is still in the game. With just about any
level of native system you can afford, being available. So they can "compete"
there. But can they "dominate"?

Where they are really getting squeezed is in the middle. The HD users who are
quite happy with their system but can't afford to buy another 8k -15k system.
But they may have to. Or switch.

Why? Snow Leopard. Snow Leopard is the new Mac OS and it's Mac Intel-only.
So if you have a PPC Mac, you're left out. Not the biggest problem for the LE
user. Sell your computer and get a newer one. ($2,500 minus what you sell
your older one for). But for the HD user, who is still using a Mac G5 because
it has PCI slots (instead of PCIe cards), you have to buy a new computer plus
get a crossgrade for all your cards. (about $5,000 more for an HD 3 owner like me).

And Digidesign has announced that they are no longer supporting PPC macs in
their next major software update. I assume because they don't want to write
code for Snow Leopard and old Leopard. Can't blame them. It's Apple that keeps
changing their OS quicker than the animals they keep naming them after. :•)

So a major part of their core user base will have to make the decision:
(I say "core" because this is the base that made them the "studio standard".)

1. Spend 3 times as much as a Native user to upgrade and keep current with
little extra benefit.
2. Stick with your older machine and hope that Pro Tools 9 isn't something that
you really need, as you watch the Mbox guys get to use it for a $99 upgrade price.
3. Make the switch to a Native system and cash in those cards to buy a Mac Pro 8
core and pocket the difference.

It's an interesting time in the DAW world with programs like Reaper also changing
the game. I don't envy Digidesign's place in this game at this point.

Although they could always WOW us with something new. It wouldn't be the first time.

Cheers.

You are always speaking around MAC, why don't windows? I give up the MAC 3 years ago. Though I have had a set of pcie Protools HD4. The reason is, maybe you don't know, bouncing the same session from different system willl cause different sound. I made a blind test 3 years ago, because I'm afraid Windows make thing sound worse, but the result is: MAC OS make things sound worse than Windows. I have been using Windows these 3 years and happy with it so far. Espeacially for the Windows 7, It's really a great system with great capability. I can use my PT HD with it though Digi didn't announce it's capable. So, cosider about the Windows, I belive it's a better chice for you.
Old 17th November 2009
  #141
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You know I haven't heard of anybody selling a five year old state of the art Avid or HD system and replacing it with Final Cut or Logic.
There are several people on this forum that has been doing that (PTHD>Logic), and I know several people in real life that has one it as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
My point is that no other protocol than digidesign´s proprietary
one has even close as good resolution

WITHIN PT HD and we´re talking PT here
whatever euphonix or others claim.
So again - what are the differences? Are you saying that with PT only, Euphonix mixers only allow MIDI resolution, but with other DAWs, it's much higher? If so - why? Would it be because Avid don't support the EuCon protocol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
I work in movies/sync and if you arent PT conversant you pretty much cant play!!
When people mix in stems that are being delivered to those who are going to place the various stems in the surround image, I've seen again and again that these people aren't interested in what DAW these stems were created in. They get a bunch of audio files from a recording studio/producer/film composer's own studio, and not DAW files.
Old 17th November 2009
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinghand View Post
I made a blind test 3 years ago, because I'm afraid Windows make thing sound worse, but the result is: MAC OS make things sound worse than Windows.
If the mixing actually happen in the TDM chips, and not in the OS, how is this even possible?
And - if it's true, why is there only a very small fraction of the PT users out there who use WIndows?
Old 17th November 2009
  #143
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
When people mix in stems that are being delivered to those who are going to place the various stems in the surround image, I've seen again and again that these people aren't interested in what DAW these stems were created in. They get a bunch of audio files from a recording studio/producer/film composer's own studio, and not DAW files.
That's all fine and good but what I think narcoman meant is that if you wanna be (one of) the guy(s) behind the console on the dubstage then you'd better know your PT commands and ICON layouts. in the UK anyway, other than a few short-form houses using Pyramix and the odd Nuendo oddity (stemming from a continental fascination I think) all the major stages here are PT.
Old 17th November 2009
  #144
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
This is only partially true. If you own a stable HD system running on a non-Intel mac, you WILL be shut out from the next major Pro Tools version...
Not if you buy a PeeCee!
Old 17th November 2009
  #145
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zimv20's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
That makes a lot of sense and they are advertising for high-powered engineering positions on their website.
that's a good sign.

Quote:
The "outsource engineering to India theory" sure sounds like BS from disgruntled folks who got canned.
perhaps there's some truth to it, but we don't have all the facts. e.g. it could be that Avid is outsourcing the QA to India, but not the core development. i wouldn't look at that as a danger sign at all.
Old 17th November 2009
  #146
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal3 View Post
That's all fine and good but what I think narcoman meant is that if you wanna be (one of) the guy(s) behind the console on the dubstage then you'd better know your PT commands and ICON layouts. in the UK anyway, other than a few short-form houses using Pyramix and the odd Nuendo oddity (stemming from a continental fascination I think) all the major stages here are PT.
precisely!!

Also - when I work with other composers as a producer I invariably move everything over to PT.... there are a whole bunch of people who do live string session overdubs for me that just need all the parts in that way... using one system keeps "translation" issues down - and the closest thing we have to a universal product is PT.... Yes - I like other products and yes I may choose differently if I was setting up now - but PT is pretty ubiquitous....
Old 17th November 2009
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimv20 View Post
it could be that Avid is outsourcing the QA to India, but not the core development. i wouldn't look at that as a danger sign at all.
I dunno about you, but I wouldn't want anything less than the best, domain-aware QA for a customer-critical product. tutt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You know I haven't heard of anybody selling a five year old state of the art Avid or HD system and replacing it with Final Cut or Logic.
Actually it's worse than that. One of the biggest Avid video shops here has basically closed, gone out of business, and all the staff have set up small editing suites in their houses and forced themselves to learn Final Cut so they could still have income.

People are amazed that Avid's sales in the video sector are half of what they were a year ago. They would expect them to be zero.
Old 17th November 2009
  #148
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
This is only partially true. If you own a stable HD system running on a non-Intel mac, you WILL be shut out from the next major Pro Tools version.

Do we need it? Who knows. But when you force your customers to upgrade and spend 6k - 8k in the process, you open up the possibility to a complete re-evaluation.

Including switching DAWs.
But that is no fault of Digidesign it's due to Apple not wanting to support 5+ year old hardware. I am not a Windows guy but does Window 7 support Pentium III's?
FWIW the cost for me to to upgrade my 6 card protools rig was 2K for a Magma chassis
(not counting the cost of a Mac Pro)
And I am pretty sure that leaves me OK when the The next version of Protools comes out.
Plus nobody is FORCING you to upgrade I know plenty of users on Mix with 6.4.1
Old 17th November 2009
  #149
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zimv20's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I dunno about you, but I wouldn't want anything less than the best, domain-aware QA for a customer-critical product.
of course you want every aspect of your process to be staffed by competent people. however, as a software developer having dealt with QA teams here, there and everywhere (including the US and India), i can tell you those teams are staffed by people who can follow a testing script and report when things don't work as expected.

they're never domain experts. the quality of the QA team is a product of the management of said team, and not the cleverness of the operators themselves.

heck, some of what i do these days is set up automated QA, which may provide a hint as to how "complicated" script-following QA tasks actually are.
Old 17th November 2009
  #150
Gear Addict
 
markus enochson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Given the complete absence of Mackie on the Avid/Digi website (the m-powered specs make no mention either), it would appear that the Mackie use of M-powered is unauthorised and unsupported, much like the use of Lynx/Apogee/Prism converters and HD cards.

So this really doesn't say anything other than another company has reverse engineered the system.
this is the case, its a reverse engineered product that could quite possibly loose functionality by and update much like palm pre loosing itunes sync although my contact at mackie says they cant loose it...
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