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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 17th November 2009
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipass View Post
Only Avid will kill Protools and it will be with something that will blow everyone away (again).
Protools is 10 years ahead of every other audio DAW around.
there are a few of u guys "in the know" and cannot speak. will this happen within the next 6 months? next year?
Old 17th November 2009
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konkaos View Post
there are a few of u guys "in the know" and cannot speak. will this happen within the next 6 months? next year?
Seer or Troll, you decide...
Old 17th November 2009
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
The fact Avid writes its DAW for Windows as well is a massive factor here. Apple is well-versed in the competition with Windows for the creative content market. Their entire strategy for the last 25 years revolves around it in ways that may not meet the eye.

I was working with the QuickTime group when Apple bought Final Cut. The point of it was to protect QuickTime. The point of protecting QuickTime was to allow things like the iPod and iPhone to have control-of-destiny. If Apple lost the format wars to Microsoft or Real then those companies could dictate the entire hardware market in the consumer space via DRM etc. Apple ensured, indirectly through its pro apps, that content creators would produce for its format and it would not be left out in the cold.

It worked huh.

And you should note during this timeframe Intel took a stake in Avid to ensure its crossplatform support, which contributed, slightly but eventually, to Apple adopting Intel.

Apple isn't going to let Avid empower Windows in creative content to the point of it calling itself "industry standard" as it does. Oh, Apple knows from industry standard. If there's an industry standard in content out of its control that is an open threat out in the field. So no Apple is not dropping Logic, not soft-pedaling it, and not in the least bit UNinterested in taking that mantle from Avid. It did it in video and is proceeding apace in audio.

Plus Steve is a media mogul, who spent over a decade running Pixar directly and at the top of his lungs.
You raise good points. I just wonder how much money there is for Logic to make by killing Pro Tools.
Old 17th November 2009
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
You raise good points. I just wonder how much money there is for Logic to make by killing Pro Tools.
It's subtle and a balancing act. Apple doesn't want to kill off something that 1) keeps supporting Apple and keeps its customers on Apple and 2) keeps a formidable Windows-only competitor from having a must-have over there.

So they don't want to kill Avid, but they can't let Avid either die or leave them. If Avid dies without Apple having a strong story in that space then Apple is screwed. If Avid leaves obviously they need to be prepared to take away all the abandoned Pro Tools sites, hoping they will have more allegiance to Mac than PT (which is a stretch). So they have to establish a position and gradually erode away support (e.g. with somewhat predatory pricing).

It's like a parasite-host relationship. You start out just living together if a bit uneasily. But once the host starts to seem ill, the parasite kills it and takes whatever it has before other parasites get there first.

Old 17th November 2009
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konkaos View Post
there are a few of u guys "in the know" and cannot speak. will this happen within the next 6 months? next year?
I think that they're gonna really go crazy with "creative" tools in the next version. Imagine Reason, Spectrasonics and Superior Drumming built in.

How they'll handle DSP will be very interesting. Can they really roll out an HD replacement?

Would people buy it with:

1. A struggling economy.
2. Less need for more power.

I have an HD3 and the only power I need is to run more Native RTAS instruments.

I'm really surprised that Pro Tools went all native with their instruments in 8. I would definitely get a few more cards for that. Hmmm. RTAS cards?
Old 17th November 2009
  #96
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afaik (and yes, a friend who works for Digi confirmed this for me) - Digi's next moves are laying off more folks in order to complete Avid's "50/50 plan" where at least 50% of the current coding, testing and support jobs will be outsourced to primarily the Ukraine and India. Followed by them replacing the Digi and M-Audio branded face plates with ones that say "Avid." After that - your speculative guess is probably as good as mine.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 17th November 2009
  #97
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otobianki74's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I'm really surprised that Pro Tools went all native with their instruments in 8. I would definitely get a few more cards for that. Hmmm. RTAS cards?
interesting and funny.

oto
Old 17th November 2009
  #98
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Cellotron's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
Who knows what talents are there? India has the biggest filmindustry on this earth. Even much bigger than Hollywood. We can speculate here, but never know the full truth.
I'm quite positive that there are many excellent coders working in India. The thing to acknowledge is that the way PT currently works and functions in at least a small part is a product of the culture it came from - which influenced the way it was coded. The question for the future is whether shifting coding from its current culture will make any noticeable effect on its development and functionality (either positive or negative). It is indeed hard to find people who are the rare combo of coders, audio engineers and musicians all at the same time - which a number of folks who have or will exit Digi soon in fact are.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 17th November 2009
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I have an HD3 and the only power I need is to run more Native RTAS instruments.
This is half of the current dilemma of protools: most interesting new plug-ins, including PT's own instruments, are native.

The second half of their problem is that lots of studios need to run multiple DAWs, because Logic and others are popular with composers / arrangers. Digi has painted itself into a corner by intentionally making it awkward to share audio interfaces between those DAWs. It worked in their favor when PT was clearly dominant. But it turns into a disadvantage for them -- forcing people out of PT hardware instead of into it -- when native solutions become serious competitors.

-synthoid
Old 17th November 2009
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipass View Post
Only Avid will kill Protools and it will be with something that will blow everyone away (again).
Protools is 10 years ahead of every other audio DAW around.
That's an ambitious statement, perhaps motivated by 'hope' rather than reality?

The only thing that Avid could to to 'blow away' consumers now is drop its price and liberate the restrictions (crippleware) in Pro Tools.

A company that operates on the back foot with a slow and cautionary, defensive business strategy while all around is getting cheaper and better is going to get chewed up. If Avid continue to display an inflexible and unimaginitive approach they will not survive for too much longer...
Old 17th November 2009
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
Lots of studios need to run multiple DAWs, because Logic and others are popular with composers / arrangers. Digi has painted itself into a corner by intentionally making it awkward to share audio interfaces between those DAWs. It worked in their favor when PT was clearly dominant. But it turns into a disadvantage for them -- forcing people out of PT hardware instead of into it

-synthoid
Logic has worked with TDM hardware for as long as I can remember. It seems like you are talking out your a*s, Synthoid.
Old 17th November 2009
  #102
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Another point worth mentioning is that digidesign ICON surfaces offer a level of pro mixing and hardware integration which no other DAW manufacturer does.

I and probably most other ICON owners will stay with them for the next years whatever will happen for this very reason.
Old 17th November 2009
  #103
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I don't think Apple has any interest in killing Avid, but Apple (and others) - and the general technological development is reducing Avid's position down to where it currently belongs. Of course Apple has nothing against that.

Both Avid and existing Pro Tools dealers know that lots of the users who needed and bought Pro Tools a while ago now have other choices. According to two one PT dealer I know, they sell a log more Logic than PT, and according to another main PT dealer, the don't sell many new systems anymore; it's mainly updates. He was the one who launched the idea that (unfortunately, for his company) lots of the customers who needed Mix or HD systems a few years ago don't need them anymore - they can use other solutions. With a smaller market, prices may increase or at least fail to drop, which could cause a bad circle of events. That's why I think the next PT move will be about software improvements, and about creating hardware which is in the price range (and has the performance) one would expect today.

The market for the product type PTHD represents is very reduced, and many of the existing PTHD interested people already have a system. That's one of the reasons that Avid has to lay off people (like many others) and outsource to India and Ukraina (like many others). The strange thing is that they could afford to wait so long with doing all this, and the good thing - for all DAW users - is that things are getting both cheaper and better, due to increased competition in the market that represents 99% of all DAW buyers.

The losers aren't Avid as a company - or necessarily the PT platform, it's the people who are losing their jobs. Of course the PT platform can lose more terrain as well, especially if Avid won't change their policy regarding host based systems - but Avid's main problem could be that many of the developers involved in PT now may be signing contracts with rivaling companies.

Re. Digidesign's (Avid's) next move, some of the replies in the other thread about the same topic were more original... :-) Check posts 12, 16 and 17 in this thread (and poll):

What do you think Digidesign's next move will be?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Another point worth mentioning is that digidesign ICON surfaces offer a level of pro mixing and hardware integration which no other DAW manufacturer does.
What are the main differences between Euphonix System 5-MC and Icon?
Old 17th November 2009
  #104
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It's interesting to see that many basicly wrote down avid, because they fired many people. (As the vast majority of companies did by the way)
Why don't the same people visioning apogges' death because one the main designer went to digi.
It is only a speculation, but I definately think digi has big things in their pocket.
Do really anyone seriously think that avid is just sitting at their desk looking forward, and think what should they do?
On the other side, logic. It is clear to me that the dongle protection is abandoned with a reason. Apple, regarding logic, does not care about the loss. Buy our new hardware is the clear message. I think with lowering logic's price drastically is very dangerous. Because they do not earn reasonable money with it, so for future development, they must use other resources. On the long run, I don't think it is a viable plan.
With only a few updates with logic I don't think anyone can call it a stable, frequently updated professional software.

Digi is working hard to satisfy for example big post prod. suites, while still, apple deletes threads from their logic forum if the thread is about the serious weaknesses of their software.
And just a closing thought. What if one day Steve Jobs sees that they losing serious market share in the phone/ipod category, and simply decides that they drop logic investments seriously? Because we all know what saved apple's ass years ago. So the priority is clear I think.

TD
Old 17th November 2009
  #105
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They may have fired some employees now but they had many years time to develop big things which they have left in the pocket for whatever strategical reason.

If I understood right the develoment cycle for all the new PT 8 features began some 2-3 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
What are the main differences between Euphonix System 5-MC and Icon?
The ICON is custom tailored for PT and has much higher resolution than Euphonix.
+ if you ask me ergonomically the ICON is more straightforward.

Non the less Euphonix is great for nuendo and logic.
Old 17th November 2009
  #106
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
Apple, with a ridiculous share of the worlwide computer market, is now 2/3rds the size/value of Microsoft. Think about that. And do you think AVID can compete with Apple?

Apple is throwing away software/apps for free, for people to buy his hardware. A package similar to the FCP bundle would have cost $100k+ some years ago to run on a sgi workstation, now it's almost free (!), and Silicon Graphics is essentially over. The Logic studio package is not much different.

ProTools killed DASH recorders, and Apple will kill ProTools. It's called evolution.

A DASH cost $250k, while a PTHD rig went for $25k. Now the same 10:1 ratio applies with AVID being the victim this time: you can buy an SSL Alphalink converter+MADI card+Logic studio for $2.5k. Game, set, match.

These days, you can invest $20k on a PTHD3 with 24ch of A/D/A and AES I/O, or Logic+SSL MADI+A/D/A plus $18k in microphones. Studio Rates are (very) low. DAWs last 5 years. Mics last a lifetime (and retain their value). What would you do?
Correction Apple has only a very small share of the worldwide computer market but I agree with the rest of your comments. I just bought a SSL Xlogic converter + MADI card to use with Logic/Cubase on my Mac Pro.
Old 17th November 2009
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
...and has much higher resolution than Euphonix.
Thanks. What's the actual difference?
Old 17th November 2009
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopamine View Post
Logic has worked with TDM hardware for as long as I can remember.
Well, I didn't mention TDM hardware, I was talking about audio interfaces.

But as long as we're on the subject, here's a sampling of opinion concerning how well Logic and TDM hardware play together:

Logic 9 and TDM = Nightmare

Apple - Support - Discussions - Logic Studio vs Logic TDM vs Protools HD ...

Quote:
It seems like you are talking out your a*s, Synthoid.
thanks for that.

-synthoid
Old 17th November 2009
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
...
Where they are really getting squeezed is in the middle. The HD users who are
quite happy with their system but can't afford to buy another 8k -15k system.
But they may have to. Or switch.
...
...to Pyramix. Does much more and does it better than ProTools, except the MIDI stuff.
Maybe a little harder to learn, since it has more functions.

I see two major professional DAW competitors in the future, with ProTools still running strong:

Logic for the MIDI based market.
Pyramix for the Post/Mastering/Recording market.
Old 17th November 2009
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Digidesign/Avid has always been a media-business focussed company, compared to Apple which is consumer-focussed.
When it comes to Final Cut Pro and Logic, Apple are collaborating with high-end manufacturers of interfaces and control surfaces (like Apogee and Euphonix), which historically haven't been consumer oriented, while Avid is more are more addressing the consumer market, with mBoxes, Pro Tools Essential etc. I don't think any of them want (or can afford) not to cover both markets - and everything in between them. Most consumers don't need 8-core Macs or even Logic Pro.

I think both companies will continue to focus on consumers, if only to train newbies to get used to their products.
Old 17th November 2009
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Thanks. What's the actual difference?
Not shure how high it´s in numbers but doing very slow fades by hand the difference between the digidesign protocol on my d-command and anything else
which uses midi 127 step interpolation is obvious.
Old 17th November 2009
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge View Post
i just pulled a $30,000 check out of my mailbox from Toyota for the music on a 15 second commercial I recorded using Amadeus and Audacity.

Finished in all 20 minutes, and I'm doing another today.

Never touched ProTools or Logic. Too complicated and slow.
then you're in the minority, and I'm happy for you. Not using PT would preclude you from working in movies or commercial {as in pop} music. It also keeps you out fo the money aras like post, voice over and religious recording....This is okay if you're an advert writer like yourself - but it is in no way a blueprint for everybody. You're working in a "none technical intensive " area - the advert composer works very differently to nearly everybody else.... You also need to bear in mind that you have been paid for the composition - the tool you use is not relevant as long as it gets the job done - in your case the tools you have work perfectly. This has nothing to do with what more expensive systems offer to those of us who need them.

As for slow? Try editing a 60 plus tracks all in one orchestral session on anything BUT PT, SADI, RADAR or Fairlight.
Old 17th November 2009
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum View Post
...to Pyramix. Does much more and does it better than ProTools, except the MIDI stuff.
Maybe a little harder to learn, since it has more functions.

I see two major professional DAW competitors in the future, with ProTools still running strong:

Logic for the MIDI based market.
Pyramix for the Post/Mastering/Recording market.
Used Pyramix for six months on a soundtrack a year and a half ago. Just couldn't get on with it..... I think it's probably a good system but just not for me !!
Old 17th November 2009
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Not shure how high it´s in numbers but doing very slow fades by hand the difference between the digidesign protocol on my d-command and anything else
which uses midi 127 step interpolation is obvious.
127 step resolution? If the incoming data would have been 127 steps, Logic would still have been interpolating between these values. Logic's internal resolution is much higher than that, and the same is true for the Euphonics faders. Euphonix often mention that the EuCon protocol is "high-speed" and "high-resolution".

Nobody makes mixers like Euphonics' pro mixers with only 127 step solution: :-)

Euphonix.com :: System 5 MC
Old 17th November 2009
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Not shure how high it´s in numbers but doing very slow fades by hand the difference between the digidesign protocol on my d-command and anything else
which uses midi 127 step interpolation is obvious.
I'm afraid you havent tried hi-end controllers from Euphonix and other manufacturers, controllers costing the same as an ICON. On the other hand, even the cheap Euphonix Artist series have high resolution (8x times MIDI resolution) when working with EuCon aware apps (Logic, Nuendo, etc)

This is not to say ICON (both d-command and d-control) are bad, which they are not, on the contrary they are indeed great. But to me, they are overpriced. Look for instance at the SSL Matrix and compare it to a d-command. For a similar price, the SSL also brings a top analog mixer. The fact that that the Matrix is more limited with PTHD as a controller is just a political matter, as AVID limits everybody else to HUI.
Old 17th November 2009
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Not shure how high it´s in numbers but doing very slow fades by hand the difference between the digidesign protocol on my d-command and anything else
which uses midi 127 step interpolation is obvious.
Anything else?
EuCon protocol is not using Midi but a much finer resolution.
Old 17th November 2009
  #117
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My point is that no other protocol than digidesign´s proprietary
one has even close as good resolution

WITHIN PT HD and we´re talking PT here
whatever euphonix or others claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
. On the other hand, even the cheap Euphonix Artist series have high resolution (8x times MIDI resolution) when working with EuCon aware apps (Logic, Nuendo, etc).
True for logic and nuendo but not in PT HD

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
This is not to say ICON (both d-command and d-control) are bad, which they are not, on the contrary they are indeed great. But to me, they are overpriced. Look for instance at the SSL Matrix and compare it to a d-command. For a similar price, the SSL also brings a top analog mixer. The fact that that the Matrix is more limited with PTHD as a controller is just a political matter, as AVID limits everybody else to HUI.
As you know I have tried the matrix but to me it was somehow limited
and the PT control is everything but intuitive. The patching and routing
options seem tempting at the first moment but can be solved similar well
with a traditional tt patchbay. I don´t see how the matrix sounds better than my spl mixdream.

D-Command at current prices ( which are way under list BTW) still is a reasonable
investment and makes PT really fun to work with - I can work with my TFTs turned off.

People who moan about ICON not being intuitive usually have not taken the time
either to learn it or the will to adapt their visual based working style.
Old 17th November 2009
  #118
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
The point is no other protocol than digidesign´s proprietary
one has even close as good resolution in PT HD
whatever euphonix or others claim.
i'm not sure about that. Yes - using Eucon in PT is a bit of a pain because it goes through HUI. But ive used Eucon on Nuendo and it's easily as good as ICON - got ICON in the main room and Eucon in one of he Nuendo rooms.... Seems pretty "on it" to me. As far as I know it's 1024 steps - sam as ICON.
Old 17th November 2009
  #119
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How much is a system 5 mc with 24 faders street
compared to a 24 fader d-command ?
Old 17th November 2009
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
How much is a system 5 mc with 24 faders street
compared to a 24 fader d-command ?
I think it was 15k for each 8 fader module and 20k for the central MC controller, but I believe Euphonix has changed prices several times. In the end, prices of similarily equipped (same number of faders) Euphonix and ICON (D-Control) are about the same.
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