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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 16th November 2009
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff16years View Post
i hate to break it to you, but Digidesign is not concerned about giving us what we need.
-Jeff
Well they have asked me what I am looking for. I have have had meetings exchanged emails etc. with them over the years.
How do think Digi got to be number one ? by delivering the goods.
Old 16th November 2009
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge View Post
i just pulled a $30,000 check out of my mailbox from Toyota for the music on a 15 second commercial I recorded using Amadeus and Audacity.

Finished in all 20 minutes, and I'm doing another today.

Never touched ProTools or Logic. Too complicated and slow.
you are getting that kind of cash per effort not because of what DAW you use. but because of your composition, performance and people skillz talent.

whatever software you use depends on what makes you feel most comfortable. with those kind of results, i'd say keep doing what you're doing. but don't blaim or praise the DAW. who cares? its just a vehicle.... its not the main attraction.
Old 16th November 2009
  #63
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Old 16th November 2009
  #64
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Id just like to see a new system that supports MADI and allows users to decide which converters they want to use. Better still just release a uncrippled native version of Tools that works with your soundcard of choice ie RME, SSL.
Old 16th November 2009
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDC View Post
I doubt it. I work with a former digi employee/developer and he says that they are laying people off left anf right. India is taking over. China is manufacturing. His thoughts included, "Yeah, India programmers really have a grasp on audio and the recording process".
Who knows what talents are there? India has the biggest filmindustry on this earth. Even much bigger than Hollywood. We can speculate here, but never know the full truth.

As to logic is sounding much better, etc. LOL
Will this argument ever die?

TD
Old 16th November 2009
  #66
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Quote:
The ease of use of Logic as far as a novice musician coming into recording for the first time (actually people are starting with Garage Band these days too) is far ahead of Pro Tools in my honest opinion is due to apple loops. You can start with a simple guitar idea played to a click track and then find drum loops that fit... drop in fills and variations of the groove and in a few minutes you have something. Pro Tools 8 has virtual instruments and a so-so drum machine but nothing like Logic.
Logic and Cubase way to create music and interact with loops and plugins are way better, simpler and friendly then PT. And you've noticed well, since many and many musicians are entering the once "dark and misterious path of audio engineering" PT is loosing lots of potential producers and studios. Many entered the producing world with Garage Band, Reason, the step up from those are Logic and Cubase, not Protools. Protools for many - including me - is becoming a recording device, not for mixing nor creating/producing music, much like an old tape machine - it has lots of quality, but is losing space day after day.

Cheers from Rio.
Old 16th November 2009
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I don't consider you a reliable source, but if it's true that Dave Lebolt was the architect of the crippleware strategy that has earned Pro Tools the Most Hated DAW status, then yes he should have been summarily fired and I have no idea why Apple would hire him. But this is speculation, if that sickness spreads to Apple I'll be shocked.
Just because he behaved a certain way at one company doesn't mean he has the same philosophy at another company. He was probably doing what he thought was right for Digidesign (and it worked) and now he'll have to to what's right for Apple, which is a whole different ballgame.
Old 16th November 2009
  #68
Kenny, you mentioned Final Cut Pro in the first post... and hilariously, it's Avid that's probably suffered the most as a result of that piece of software existing at the pricepoint it does. I doubt that Logic has dented their business as much as FCP has, but it's still an interesting consideration.
Old 16th November 2009
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal3 View Post
Kenny, you mentioned Final Cut Pro in the first post... and hilariously, it's Avid that's probably suffered the most as a result of that piece of software existing at the pricepoint it does. I doubt that Logic has dented their business as much as FCP has, but it's still an interesting consideration.
That's why I brought it up.

Avid is going to (maybe?) get nailed twice by Apple.
Old 16th November 2009
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uvc1977 View Post
Better still just release a uncrippled native version of Tools that works with your soundcard of choice ie RME, SSL.
They have an crippled version of LE it's called HD, as far as part 2 Avid is a HARDWARE company - which means they sell hardware NOT software.
Like Apple ...
Old 16th November 2009
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipass View Post
They have an crippled version of LE it's called HD, as far as part 2 Avid is a HARDWARE company - which means they sell hardware NOT software.
Like Apple ...
Yes, but where the business model differs and thus narrows its target market is in the useful applications of said hardware - Avid stuff is useable for music/sound. That's all.

Apple's stuff is useable for music/sound, film/video, photography, graphic design, word processing, email, games, entertainment/media, internet, science, etc. etc. etc. They have a target market of virtually anyone because that computer you buy is good for so much more than just running the software of your choice. They can genuinely afford to practically give away the pro apps, as it were, and they're profitable as anyone. Avid, on the other hand...
Old 16th November 2009
  #72
Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
Avid just gave an M-Powered license to Mackie. That is the first time they have let a 3rd party not only do the analog-digital conversion, but the computer-digital interfacing, which is much more sensitive to them I'd think.

(Speculation on potential Avid/LOUD merger skipped)

(Mytek I think should also be on the list)
Given the complete absence of Mackie on the Avid/Digi website (the m-powered specs make no mention either), it would appear that the Mackie use of M-powered is unauthorised and unsupported, much like the use of Lynx/Apogee/Prism converters and HD cards.

So this really doesn't say anything other than another company has reverse engineered the system.
Old 16th November 2009
  #73
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I don't think Dididesign will change anything.

They were there first with the platform and they've got the name so they can continue to keep the LE folks from recording at anything higher than 48kHz on a good (read: non Digi 002/003) converter and anyone who wants 192kHz has to pay for a TDM system.

Why would they change when they can continue to get LE users to purchase their 003 dongles and TDM users to buy their cards?

They'll always have a market.

Old 16th November 2009
  #74
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuemes View Post
I don't think Dididesign will change anything.

They were there first with the platform and they've got the name so they can continue to keep the LE folks from recording at anything higher than 48kHz on a good (read: non Digi 002/003) converter and anyone who wants 192kHz has to pay for a TDM system.
Yep, everyone working at 192k...what, that's archivists and a few audiophile crazies, right?!
Old 16th November 2009
  #75
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I've been TDM since PT4, HD since 2004. I pretty much only use TDM stuff for tracking and mixing and never give a thought to Latency or delay compensation. It's a great workflow and I have no desire to change.

When I loaded BFD2 and PT8 on my G5 I realized that although it grudgingly worked it just wasn't fun. Loath to even consider a PCIe xchange for 9 year old technology I built a Hackintosh quad 3.2GHz silent PC with PCI slots as an interim solution ($1400 with 3 internal HD). Actually works pretty good.

So: whatever DIGI is planning better be a serious upgrade from the HD system to keep me interested. Yes I want to go back to a "real Mac" for all the forward compatibility issues. But a new card or external box system has to be cost reasonable. THe HD upgrade was ~$7K for HD2 accel, MIDI I/O and a 192 (From PT24, 2 farms and a 888/24). About 1/2 that is about as far as I am willing to go this time.

Now if I were full time (make a reasonable living) at this stuff, $10K for a new system is no big deal. But here is where DIGI may seriously miscalculate. I am going to speculate that the "enthusiuast - part time - serious musician" market is quite large now and likely to have the largest growth in the future. Folks who are willing to spend $1K/channel on a mic pre. If the new HD is not accessible to these folks a large opportunity will be missed (all IMHO of course)....

Although I follow the "native" threads with interest, it still seems a compelling native workflow is still not there yet. After 12 years of running PT it is going to take something very special to entice me to switch. FWIW, PTLE is not even close to an option for me.

-Lee
Old 17th November 2009
  #76
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal3 View Post
Yes, but where the business model differs and thus narrows its target market is in the useful applications of said hardware - Avid stuff is useable for music/sound. That's all.

Apple's stuff is useable for music/sound, film/video, photography, graphic design, word processing, email, games, entertainment/media, internet, science, etc. etc. etc. They have a target market of virtually anyone because that computer you buy is good for so much more than just running the software of your choice. They can genuinely afford to practically give away the pro apps, as it were, and they're profitable as anyone. Avid, on the other hand...
Exactly!!!
Old 17th November 2009
  #77
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuemes View Post
I don't think Dididesign will change anything.

They were there first with the platform and they've got the name so they can continue to keep the LE folks from recording at anything higher than 48kHz on a good (read: non Digi 002/003) converter and anyone who wants 192kHz has to pay for a TDM system.

Why would they change when they can continue to get LE users to purchase their 003 dongles and TDM users to buy their cards?

They'll always have a market.

Why would they change when they can continue to get LE users to purchase their 003 dongles and TDM users to buy their cards?

They won't. Providing that's the case. I don't think it is anymore.

Apple doesn't have any reason to cripple their system. So they won't.

Digidesign does. But eventually people catch on. And then you've lost that (being there first) feature. If everyone chooses to learn Logic instead, it will take over.

There's always a new crop of people learning and buying this stuff. So you can't rest on your past success. Just ask Synclaviar.

"They'll always have a market" couldn't be further from the truth.

They could be "old hat" in less than 3 years. Technology changes quick.
Old 17th November 2009
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post

"They'll always have a market" couldn't be further from the truth.

They could be "old hat" in less than 3 years. Technology changes quick.
Maybe so, but isn't this part of the reason Avid bought M-Audio?
Old 17th November 2009
  #79
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Apple, with a ridiculous share of the worlwide computer market, is now 2/3rds the size/value of Microsoft. Think about that. And do you think AVID can compete with Apple?

Apple is throwing away software/apps for free, for people to buy his hardware. A package similar to the FCP bundle would have cost $100k+ some years ago to run on a sgi workstation, now it's almost free (!), and Silicon Graphics is essentially over. The Logic studio package is not much different.

ProTools killed DASH recorders, and Apple will kill ProTools. It's called evolution.

A DASH cost $250k, while a PTHD rig went for $25k. Now the same 10:1 ratio applies with AVID being the victim this time: you can buy an SSL Alphalink converter+MADI card+Logic studio for $2.5k. Game, set, match.


These days, you can invest $20k on a PTHD3 with 24ch of A/D/A and AES I/O, or Logic+SSL MADI+A/D/A plus $18k in microphones. Studio Rates are (very) low. DAWs last 5 years. Mics last a lifetime (and retain their value). What would you do?
Old 17th November 2009
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
ProTools killed DASH recorders, and Apple will kill ProTools. It's called evolution.
I think Apple could kill off HD if they just devote more time to Logic. They have had a big head start from the release of Logic 8 all the way up to the upcoming release of Avid's new PT incarnation. But... Logic is still way too buggy. No way I would trust a a decent sized client budget to it at this time.

If there is a new uncrippled native PT upcoming with all the bells, whistles, ADC, and continuing quality of FX and VI's they have shown in PT 8 to rival Logic, it will get interesting. If Avid continues on it's current course of crippleware native and high priced TDM they are doomed.
Old 17th November 2009
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
These days, you can invest $20k on a PTHD3 with 24ch of A/D/A and AES I/O, or Logic+SSL MADI+A/D/A plus $18k in microphones. Studio Rates are (very) low. DAWs last 5 years. Mics last a lifetime (and retain their value). What would you do?

Uhmm.....

Old 17th November 2009
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konkaos View Post
I think Apple could kill off HD if they just devote more time to Logic. They have had a big head start from the release of Logic 8 all the way up to the upcoming release of Avid's new PT incarnation. But... Logic is still way too buggy. No way I would trust a a decent sized client budget to it at this time.

If there is a new uncrippled native PT upcoming with all the bells, whistles, ADC, and continuing quality of FX and VI's they have shown in PT 8 to rival Logic, it will get interesting. If Avid continues on it's current course of crippleware native and high priced TDM they are doomed.
But they won't. Logic is...what per cent of Apple's income?

You can't have a pro product that has updates once every year and a half, and is as buggy as Logic is. I like Logic, I use it daily, but it is, what it is.

TH
Old 17th November 2009
  #83
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
ProTools killed DASH recorders, and Apple will kill ProTools. It's called evolution.

A DASH cost $250k, while a PTHD rig went for $25k. Now the same 10:1 ratio applies with AVID being the victim this time: you can buy an SSL Alphalink converter+MADI card+Logic studio for $2.5k. Game, set, match.
PT did indeed contribute to the death of DASH recorders, but it took a long time. They were still using 3348s at Abbey Road in 2001, when PT was already well established.

Digidesign/Avid has always been a media-business focussed company, compared to Apple which is consumer-focussed. Don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather have my business tools in the hands of those who focus on business, not a company who see it as a minority part of their company - much as I love Apple computers, this is the situation for them.

No game, set match here I'm afraid. Until Logic has the necessary stability (and I really don't buy the comment that Spicemix has made before about "most PT rigs are so well set up because there's been so much invested in them" - I've set up Logic rigs with the aid of the best techs in the business, and they're STILL buggy) it's not really an option for anyone other than owner-operators. Add to that the fact that this generation of freelance engineers is strongly PT-based, studios already using PT aren't going to want to buy new hardware in a hurry when there's nothing wrong with the existing hardware, and I still think Digi hold the upper hand, and will do for the next 5 years at least.
Old 17th November 2009
  #84
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The biggest reason for Apple to make Logic any good at all is to sell faster computers to run them. They really have no desire to go after the pro rigs one rig at a time.

So Pro Tools will continue to be the more "pro" choice.

But that doesn't mean they can survive if Logic steals most of the new users. Many "pro" companies have failed at the hands of less "pro" options.

If Digidesign didn't need some of the pro-sumers, why introduce LE in the first place?

It's gonna be an interesting battle but a battle that Apple really doesn't need to win. Or really care to. Either way, they probably get your money.
Old 17th November 2009
  #85
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If Digi can overcome the recent layoffs and follow through with their plans for the next few years, a lot of you people are going to be happy and have your perceptions changed a bit.
Old 17th November 2009
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan s View Post
If Digi can overcome the recent layoffs and follow through with their plans for the next few years, a lot of you people are going to be happy and have your perceptions changed a bit.
I am so sick of people "claiming" to have inside information that they are keeping from us by making statements like this.

unless you can give us this information or say how you have it, i'm calling bull****. i think you don't know any more than the rest of us.

no personal offense intended Jordan.
Old 17th November 2009
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
The biggest reason for Apple to make Logic any good at all is to sell faster computers to run them. They really have no desire to go after the pro rigs one rig at a time.

So Pro Tools will continue to be the more "pro" choice.

But that doesn't mean they can survive if Logic steals most of the new users. Many "pro" companies have failed at the hands of less "pro" options.

If Digidesign didn't need some of the pro-sumers, why introduce LE in the first place?

It's gonna be an interesting battle but a battle that Apple really doesn't need to win. Or really care to. Either way, they probably get your money.
The fact Avid writes its DAW for Windows as well is a massive factor here. Apple is well-versed in the competition with Windows for the creative content market. Their entire strategy for the last 25 years revolves around it in ways that may not meet the eye.

I was working with the QuickTime group when Apple bought Final Cut. The point of it was to protect QuickTime. The point of protecting QuickTime was to allow things like the iPod and iPhone to have control-of-destiny. If Apple lost the format wars to Microsoft or Real then those companies could dictate the entire hardware market in the consumer space via DRM etc. Apple ensured, indirectly through its pro apps, that content creators would produce for its format and it would not be left out in the cold.

It worked huh.

And you should note during this timeframe Intel took a stake in Avid to ensure its crossplatform support, which contributed, slightly but eventually, to Apple adopting Intel.

Apple isn't going to let Avid empower Windows in creative content to the point of it calling itself "industry standard" as it does. Oh, Apple knows from industry standard. If there's an industry standard in content out of its control that is an open threat out in the field. So no Apple is not dropping Logic, not soft-pedaling it, and not in the least bit UNinterested in taking that mantle from Avid. It did it in video and is proceeding apace in audio.

Plus Steve is a media mogul, who spent over a decade running Pixar directly and at the top of his lungs.
Old 17th November 2009
  #88
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Gravity's Avatar
 

Also, to the OP of this one... 5 years ago, Apple's stock price was $11.... Today it closed at $205....In a **** market...

I doubt Apple's 'cool' factor is just a superficial and transient thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff16years View Post
sorry for an off topic reply to an off topic reply.....


once the cool factor wears off, you have OSX on your computer, not Windows. That alone is worth any extra money you spent on a mac.
Old 17th November 2009
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan s View Post
If Digi can overcome the recent layoffs and follow through with their plans for the next few years, a lot of you people are going to be happy and have your perceptions changed a bit.
plans for next few years? If they don't answer apple in the next year......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravity View Post
Also, to the OP of this one... 5 years ago, Apple's stock price was $11.... Today it closed at $205....In a **** market...

I doubt Apple's 'cool' factor is just a superficial and transient thing...
Quite sure most of that is iPod, iTunes, iPhone related. They are a very smartly run company that finds the holes in the markets and attacks w/ a tight focus.
Old 17th November 2009
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
ProTools killed DASH recorders, and Apple will kill ProTools. It's called evolution.
Only Avid will kill Protools and it will be with something that will blow everyone away (again).
Protools is 10 years ahead of every other audio DAW around.
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