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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 31st March 2010
  #721
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
avid/digi is the only company who has not updated anything and because of this they are where they are now.
Whatever Avid had done, they would have had to deal with the fact that card based solutions - for most people - aren't needed (or even interesting) anymore. Due to the 'nature of things' they would have to deel with being a company not manufacturing something which, at some point, pretty much was the only DAW/Mac option for pro audio work in a period, at least in it's price range.

Computer makers like Apple also have to deal with the fact that fewer and fewer people need their high-end models. At least Apple is dealing with that in various ways - while at the same time addressing needs of pro DAW users.


Avid's main problem has probably been that in order to stay financially intact, they would have to increase their market share dramatically, but unfortunately for them, more and more people are using Final Cut Pro, Logic, Cubase on PC etc.... although I have yet to see a Windows based high-end studio.

It's all going to end up as a software 'war' anyway, so let's see what the various DAW manufacturers are working on.


Quote:
Digidesign is the only company (I can think of) that gives you trades ins on old gear.
They have been ble to do that because the price you pay for an upgrade has been very close to what the price should have been in the first place.
Old 31st March 2010
  #722
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kurt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg082 View Post
i'm not a pt le user... i use logic with rosettas and high end pres.problem is every other company has moved onto something better that has much of the power of a hd system. sure le is limited but by definition compared to all the competition what is limited has changed and the whole go to hd if you don't like le is broken. 5 years ago what you said would be the truth but not anymore. investing in a hd system these days right now for a new user would be very risky given the climate over there at avid. there are some le users bitching sure but there are aslo people giving real opnions and giving them based upon facts and the market. avid/digi is the only company who has not updated anything and because of this they are where they are now. it's not all about adc or price tag ect. it's about catching up and getting on the ball with the rest of the world and not trying to pass off crap.

many ex le users are now grown up and investing in bigger and better things and someone looking to upgrade would be crazy to consider any digi/avid porduct right now with the way things are going and the future to come.
Man. I´m still on a Mix system I started to build from 8 channels config. in 1995. Zero problems going to record 20-30 + mic-line signals with several cues to musicians at all. An HD rig has life span as long at minimum.
I´m running a Logic/Cubase system in sync with PT via 16 ch. ADAT interface. Life is good.
Old 31st March 2010
  #723
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jamwerks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntillesSound View Post
I doubt anyone will immediately ditch what theyve relied on for years just for the sake of a new product.
Avid is going to need $10k from each HD user fairly pretty quickly after their new launch (whenever that will be). What could that product be? Can everyone afford that? Some will be tempted to hang on to the current HD and/or change platforms. Without that $10K Avid will probably go under.
Old 31st March 2010
  #724
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cinealta's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by songbirdsound View Post
The rawest, most awesome deal we'd probably ever see in our lifetime would be if Apple bought Digi and kept Pro Tools more or less the same, adding OMF, ADC, FCP integration and unlimited tracks.
Apple has $24 billion in cash. Avid's market capitalization is only $535 million. Apple could buy all of Avid just to break it. Only the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) could stop them. Apple may want to scuttle Media Composer (competes with Final Cut Pro) and Pro Tools (competes with Logic).

Apple could buy Digidesign for a pittance, but they would only do so for intellectual property & patents etc, not for Pro Tools viability. No way Apple would want a product that cannibalizes Logic sales, and thus, new Mac Pro sales. Pro Tools still running on a PowerPC G5 counteracts Apple's strategy of planned obsolescence and the perpetual hardware sales juggernaut.

Digidesign will likely re-brand Pro Tools as strictly a consumer product with ultra low cost ($99) USB packages available at Best Buy etc. Maybe a Behringer, Numark or Harmon may want to buy Digi for some consumer mileage.
Old 31st March 2010
  #725
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kurt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
Apple has $24 billion in cash. Avid's market capitalization is only $535 million. Apple could buy all of Avid just to break it. Only the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) could stop them. Apple may want to scuttle Media Composer (competes with Final Cut Pro) and Pro Tools (competes with Logic).

Apple could buy Digidesign for a pittance, but they would only do so for intellectual property & patents etc, not for Pro Tools viability. No way Apple would want a product that cannibalizes Logic sales, and thus, new Mac Pro sales. Pro Tools still running on a PowerPC G5 counteracts Apple's strategy of planned obsolescence and the perpetual hardware sales juggernaut.

Digidesign will likely re-brand Pro Tools as strictly a consumer product with ultra low cost ($99) USB packages available at Best Buy etc. Maybe a Behringer, Numark or Harmon may want to buy Digi for some consumer mileage.
Why waste time with empty speculations? Go buy you a PT rig & make some music. It works every time. Even on an PPC 9600.
Old 31st March 2010
  #726
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

It is somewhat funny to see that many just thinks that avid/digi is over. So many of you are insiders? Sorry, but don't think so.
None of us know what avid will do, we just speculating. Everybody thought that eleven rack will be a failure, and than it was on backorder.
I'm sure that avid has something in it's packet. If not, than they will fail in a few years, but if they really have something, maybe everybody will be happy.
Logic is another topic. I'm sure that compared to the investment, apple actually lose money with it, but they can do this in their position. Now imagine that one day Steve Jobs leave the company again, apple start to errode quickly, what will be the first few things they would throw out? Yes, which not making money, Logic.
Of course this is only speculation, but it is as true as avid is over.heh
Old 31st March 2010
  #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinealta View Post

Three years from now, an Icon will be worthless...
This has been said from the beginning when ICONs were released.
The fact is that they are allready well established in the market.

I for my part don´t regret having bought a d-command instead of an SSL matrix one year ago.
SSL matrix and AWS desks in the long run will be niche products.
ICONs grow with every software release and as digital sounds better every year
they will as well.

All digidesign has to do is to create an LE version which has adequate power like
logic at a similar price + give users some feature / plugin goodies which makes it
a no brainer to buy - so simple.

For the professional version they would have to add even more features and sound
goodies which professionals are willing to spend money on.

According to my informations "....digidesign this time really was listening to their customer....".
Let´s see...
Old 31st March 2010
  #728
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
They have been ble to do that because the price you pay for an upgrade has been very close to what the price should have been in the first place.
... and, because it keeps 2nd-hand systems out of the used market and possibly forces a few people to have to buy new ...
Old 31st March 2010
  #729
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jamwerks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
"....digidesign this time really was listening to their customer....".
Let´s see...
Let's hope so! And that of course depends on which customer you're talking about. And they will also have to acquire new customers.

I don't see an easy solution. 6 cores Intel processors have come out, probably the power of an HD 8 for around $1k (?) and native has equal or less latency than HD.

Avid will have to introduce a high-end native solution, and many of the current 200,000 HD users around the world will be tempted to adopt this platform instead of a new (probable) expensive DSP solution, all of which won't bring much money to Digi. Too many of these 200k users don't have, or won't want to dish out $10k+ to renew their system. And what could that "new" system be, to be worth all that?

10 years ago the next tape system to rival the then new Protools, never came out, because..... it didn't exist. Does the next generation HD system even exist, that will rival the native?
Old 31st March 2010
  #730
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

High-end native solution, which is capable of using some dsp. That would be fantastic.
Again, I really don't think anyone know today what avid has or planning. But I'm sure about that they are not stupid, and there are many talented people there. Let's hope for some goodies in the near future. I think it is definately too early to state de facto things.
Old 31st March 2010
  #731
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relaxo's Avatar
I was involved in this thread last October. I've needed to say this three times lately...

So sorry to repeat myself, but if I got rid of Pro Tools HD now or in the next 5 years, I might as well take a sledgehammer to my Neve 1073s, because my studio would be out of business within 2 weeks. I WOULD HAVE ZERO BUSINESS, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. There is no work in NYC mixing, tracking or using Logic or anything else besides Pro Tools HD. I get hundreds of PT session each year. I get about two Logic session and maybe four DP sessions yearly.

Avid may be going down...(or not...I've heard this so many times before)..but it won't happen quickly unless the situation is so dire at Avid that they must cease development of Pro Tools.
Old 31st March 2010
  #732
Gear Maniac
 
scud133's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
Apple has $24 billion in cash. Avid's market capitalization is only $535 million. Apple could buy all of Avid just to break it. Only the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) could stop them. Apple may want to scuttle Media Composer (competes with Final Cut Pro) and Pro Tools (competes with Logic).

Apple could buy Digidesign for a pittance, but they would only do so for intellectual property & patents etc, not for Pro Tools viability. No way Apple would want a product that cannibalizes Logic sales, and thus, new Mac Pro sales. Pro Tools still running on a PowerPC G5 counteracts Apple's strategy of planned obsolescence and the perpetual hardware sales juggernaut.

Digidesign will likely re-brand Pro Tools as strictly a consumer product with ultra low cost ($99) USB packages available at Best Buy etc. Maybe a Behringer, Numark or Harmon may want to buy Digi for some consumer mileage.
they could also try to 'combine' the two programs.

Pro Tools Logic 1.0 ?

Apple Logic Pro Tools™
Old 31st March 2010
  #733
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
AviThere is no work in NYC mixing, tracking or using Logic or anything else besides Pro Tools HD. I get hundreds of PT session each year. I get about two Logic session and maybe four DP sessions yearly.
In my case I got more and more clients who are not interested in gear at all.
They just bring wav files, like the flashing meters of my d-command and otherwise mainly talk about sound.
Business created from engineers / producers who need PT HD tends towards
the 10 % mark max. here.
But of course munich is not NYC.


on the other hand 9 out of 10 MusikMesse boths are using Pro Tools
to run drum loops through their gear if this says anything about a platform hrhr.
Old 31st March 2010
  #734
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
I was involved in this thread last October. I've needed to say this three times lately...

So sorry to repeat myself, but if I got rid of Pro Tools HD now or in the next 5 years, I might as well take a sledgehammer to my Neve 1073s, because my studio would be out of business within 2 weeks. I WOULD HAVE ZERO BUSINESS, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. There is no work in NYC mixing, tracking or using Logic or anything else besides Pro Tools HD. I get hundreds of PT session each year. I get about two Logic session and maybe four DP sessions yearly.

Avid may be going down...(or not...I've heard this so many times before)..but it won't happen quickly unless the situation is so dire at Avid that they must cease development of Pro Tools.

Same here, everything in the last 10 years has come to me as Pro Tools files except maybe a few tracks. . . . one in Cubase, a couple in Logic.
Old 31st March 2010
  #735
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mbradzick's Avatar
I'd just like to say that my latest investment has been in PT LE, mainly in the Music Production Toolkit. I did so because like Rob and most studios running a business with outside clients, it's imperative to be PT compatible. Film, TV, webisode, mixing, editing...you name it, people expect PT. And this is coming from a die-hard Cubase user.

The question is though, once we're settled into the comfort of an HD rig, what's going to make us or everyone else want to spend money to change said HD rig? I hope PT stays the standard. It's a great DAW that makes editing a breeze and v. 8 is great for MIDI too (IMHO at least).

I know several composers who use both Logic and PT on an HD rig that they paid $12k for. Would they pay that again if Avid came out with a newer system? If pro studios have been on the decline, who's going to be a new HD buyer?

Are there enough home-pro-startup studios popping up? Maybe?
Old 31st March 2010
  #736
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal3 View Post
... and, because it keeps 2nd-hand systems out of the used market and possibly forces a few people to have to buy new ...
It called supply and demand a used HD PCIe core will sell for $3500 in less than 48 hours.
Old 31st March 2010
  #737
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post

Avid may be going down...(or not...I've heard this so many times before)..but it won't happen quickly unless the situation is so dire at Avid that they must cease development of Pro Tools.

Even if development ceased entirely, it would be a long time before people switched. The absence (or presence!) of upgrades does not affect the functionality of the existing machine, except insofar as people's emotions become involved.

These 'orphaned' HD systems will still be able to record, edit and mix, and presumably accept new plug-ins long after Daddy Digi has left the scene. What can a modern DAW not do?


This thread is fascinating in the observation of how much venom and sour grapes and consumer greed are involved in what is supposedly a cold calculation - so many of the 'predictions' and 'helpful suggestions' to Avid are hilarious.
Old 31st March 2010
  #738
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NAB in april
AES in may

I´m wondering which event they will choose...

what else is in summer ?
Old 31st March 2010
  #739
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
From the fields of Bannockburn, the Highlander speaks the truth.

Avid is done. Avid's stock is roughly 1/6th the value of what it was just 5 years ago. Talent has jumped ship (you can't lure Silicon Valley engineers with worthless stock options). Avid continues to hemorrhage: losses of $68M (FY2009), $198M (FY2008), $8M (FY2007), $43M (FY2006)...do you see a pattern? They'll either have to sell off the assets or face a shareholder lawsuit for mismanagement and dereliction of fiduciary duties.

All of Avid's audio revenues combined (Digidesign, M Audio, Sibelius etc) are only 32% of total. Digidesign alone is probably only 15% of total revenues. Avid & Digidesign are done regardless of how many copies of Pro Tools are sold in the next 1-2 years.

Three years from now, an Icon will be worthless, PT 8 will not be updated for Mac OS X 11.0. Native is the future. Don't think for a second Apple won't be using Intel's 16-core (quad) Sandy Bridge CPUs in 2011 or 32-core (quad) Haswell CPUs in 2013.
If I was going to spend mad coin on Pro Tools hardware now I would most certainly take a long pause and.........wait to see what they do next. They need to get it right.

It is a convincing argument that PT could get bought out, it won't disappear though.
Old 31st March 2010
  #740
Gear Addict
 
ORGANIK's Avatar
 

anyone see this

anyone see this post ?

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-p...igidesign.html
Old 31st March 2010
  #741
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jamwerks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
So sorry to repeat myself, but if I got rid of Pro Tools HD now or in the next 5 years, I might as well take a sledgehammer to my Neve 1073s, because my studio would be out of business within 2 weeks.
Is somebody implying that you should sell you HD rig now? As for the 5 years, who can say where things will be in 5 years?
Old 31st March 2010
  #742
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relaxo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
Is somebody implying that you should sell you HD rig now?
yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
As for the 5 years, who can say where things will be in 5 years?
yes
Old 31st March 2010
  #743
Gear Addict
 

Avid cannot sell off Digidesign , it does not exist anymore ....
Old 31st March 2010
  #744
Gear Maniac
 
drp audio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
High-end native solution, which is capable of using some dsp. That would be fantastic.
Again, I really don't think anyone know today what avid has or planning. But I'm sure about that they are not stupid, and there are many talented people there. Let's hope for some goodies in the near future. I think it is definately too early to state de facto things.
Hmm, this post reminds me of some things I've read here on GS about Avid and Pro Tools in the last several months or so. Of course, there is much speculation so it is hard to know anything for sure. At the very least I can believe that these two things might be true and speak a lot about one thing they may have up their sleeve - a DSP card for native users, it kind of adds up to that, if:

1) Avid apparently was, or is, in a little spat with UAD about DSP compatibility &
2) Someone mentioned in a post that Avid people said that LE users will be very happy in the near future. (Yes, I do realize that reps would say that if they dropped the retail price by 1/2 %, but still ...)

Now, if they include M-Powered, unlimited (or at least more) tracks, and ADC into a deal like this then I'll be curious to check it out. I won't pay a lot of money for plug-ins that are exclusive to PT only though. They'll lose me if they stay with that kind of thinking.

Something along those lines would be a good step in the direction of bridging the gap between LE and HD while making it a more affordable move for the many LE users out there. In turn, that could be lucrative for cash flow also, if LE/M-powered users can make a worthy step up for a reasonable cost.

An even better step up than all of the speculation would be nice! Surprise us Avid, make it your intention to give us more, not less by crippling your products.

Of course, this is speculation at its finest ... (Sorry if this angle has been posted to death too.)
Old 31st March 2010
  #745
PDC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Makes sense for AVID/Digi to downsize. I'd like them to focus more on the professional needs and drop the whole budget line completely....
Well, there is no money in that. Low-end is where the volume is. We sell hundreds of M-Audio and LE every year, but not nearly that many HD rigs. Dealers have to give up their 25 points just to move HD boxes to keep the entry level lines. This year Digi is squeezing the mom and pop (read non-Sweetwaters and Guitar Centers) by upping the minimum buy in to $75k. If we don't sell $75k, we have to 2-step it from a distributor, and give up another 10%. Their business practices suck. They are chopping off their feet to save a finger. No dealer is going to pay the bills on 15%. THIS is what will do Digi in.

I can't tell you how many people come to the shop I work for and try to get support for PT bought at Guitar Center. The guys over there are morons and can't even help (or won't) set up their PCs. We do. They don't even service anything. We do. So, who is doing them more of a service? Digi thinks that sales are better than developing and supporting customers in person. That DUC only takes a person so far. Ever try to get a timely response with the new Avid system. Ain't gonna happen. You get the old "call your dealer" response first. Well, if the kids at the box store new anything, you wouldn't have a need to email or call Digi. It is an endless cycle.
Old 31st March 2010
  #746
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPADUPA View Post
Avid cannot sell off Digidesign , it does not exist anymore ....
How can you kill somthing which has no life? seriously though was digidesign dropped a while back... the name i mean
Old 31st March 2010
  #747
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If Avid disappeared tomorrow, I would keep making records with my PTHD/D-Command rig for several years to come. It has paid for itself many times over and I have zero interest in another platform at the moment...

Eventually a new standard would appear (hopefully) and by the time I decide to migrate, it would not be so painful I'd imagine...
Old 31st March 2010
  #748
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDC View Post
Well, there is no money in that. Low-end is where the volume is. We sell hundreds of M-Audio and LE every year, but not nearly that many HD rigs. Dealers have to give up their 25 points just to move HD boxes to keep the entry level lines.
volume can be overrated
I am reminded of the SNL skit about the First National Bank of Change. All they did was give you 4 quarters for a dollar, five singles and three fives for a twenty. How can we make a profit you ask? "Volume!"

You have to sell 30 MBoxes to equal one HD system. Even if your store covers that ratio, I bet Avid's margins are higher, and those clients are good for extra cards, more 192's for I/O, control surfaces, plugs and so on, while the M-boxers are maybe looking to buy a mic next.

Regardless of how the retailers are being squeezed, Avid's strategy is exactly the same as any business- to do what is best for them.

Quote:
Digi is squeezing the mom and pop (read non-Sweetwaters and Guitar Centers) by upping the minimum buy in to $75k. If we don't sell $75k, we have to 2-step it from a distributor, and give up another 10%. Their business practices suck
last time I knew anything about retail, all the Big Boys had the same policy.
I remember local mom and pop music stores being squeezed by Yamaha, for example, in exactly the same way. Want to carry some Yamaha keyboards? You got to also carry the drums, the pianos, guitars, PAs - everything but the motorcycles - or no dealership.

If big companies believed they could make more money by following OUR advice, wouldn't they be doing so already??. It's not likely that they are stupid, or they never would have gotten to be a big company in the first place. It is far more likely that we are miscalculating how much benefit to them accommodating our demands will deliver.

To say "their best interest is to: (give me more and charge me less)" is just crazy talk. If it was in their best interest they would be doing it already and if it is not, why would we expect a business to do that?

As Peter Moshay said, it's easy to run a big company from a forum.
Old 31st March 2010
  #749
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
.... although I have yet to see a Windows based high-end studio.
Well...the first that comes to mind...
WireWorld Studio
Anyway...I'm not going into this discussion...
...as always...whatever works...
Old 1st April 2010
  #750
Lives for gear
Instead of making some of the more absurd statements that some of you make here, why don't you read the CFO and CEO reports?

And when you've done that, then have a look here -

Yahoo! Finance UK (Brackets indicate a minus, all figures in thousands.)

The ask yourself one question -if that was YOUR money, your kids college fund, your pension fund, what would you want the CEO to do?

Remember that they sell several thousand lite versions for every HD and then you will realise what they will have to do.
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