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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 30th March 2010
  #691
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Digidesign is loosing potential and existing customers every month
they wait with the next big step.

I seriously don´t know why they wait so long.
It´s not that there are no alternatives to HD out there
and I´m saying this as a user. The next 9 months will show
if they will stay in business or not IMHO.

According to my information their new big release
will be in summer.
Old 30th March 2010
  #692
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post


Sorry for the repeated facepalms but decidedly we don't live in the same world. Good for you that you spend so much each year. Most big studios (the one's that aren't closing) are spending very little. And there are literally 100's of thousands of new musicians each year, that is some way use electronic media.
Narcoman usually talks sense, but in this case, his postings just are so wide of reality to be absurd - Sorry, but that's the way it is. You are, in this issue at least, living in a parallel universe!

I seem to remember the definition of a business as being an activity, entered into in pursuance of monetary reward. If that is to be our definition, then Avid is not a business!

Here are some facts -

The newer Accel chips are used in HD cards, not because they are better, but because Motorola could not supply chips in such small numbers. That gives you an idea of just how small the professional market really is!

Avid is now 22 years old and has NEVER been able to make a profit. The new CEO is on orders to turn this hopeless basket case around. The shareholders are no longer prepared to see good money being thrown after bad. If he cannot get this turkey off the ground, the shareholders will be looking for a takeover partner. Sony and Adobe are favourites, with others, like Apple playing hard-to-get. Sony would be very interested, because it needs to get back into the audio-video driving seat as soon as possible.

But even Sony know that Avid are playing at the Last-Chance Saloon and will feel no great need to be generous!

The pro market is totally unimportant today. There was a time, perhaps 25 years ago, when the professional market was the figure head and prestige jewel in the crown, to give credence to the consumer product. The $100,000 Sony studio camera helped to sell the $1,000 Sony home camera.

The pro-audio market was also big enough to make a profit. Studer and Otari could sell hundreds of 24-tracks, Amek and SSL and all the others could sell hundreds of desks.

That is no longer the case and all the successful marques are targeting the amateur and prosumer markets.

Today, there is NO PERCEIVED DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY between consumer audio products and professional products. For that reason, professionals are just not finding any need any more to buy products that cost many, many thousands. CMOS chips in cameras are now producing film quality beyond that of HD TV. My £500 laptop has hi-res sampling and 5.1 sound and is loaded with software that can perform every audio and video task that used to take a massive studio.

ProTools is going down the exact same path that Quark Xpress went down in DTP. It too was somewhat arrogant and decided that dealing with the amateur market was a different market to the professional. When Adobe decided to put PageMaker on steroids and call it InDesign, Quark largely ignored it. It had 90% of the professional layout market, so why bother?

InDesign was better and cheaper and was all-native. More importantly, it came bundled with Photoshop and other vital tools for media creation. By 2005, Quark was reduced to distributing a Windows version of QuarkXPress 5 to be distributed free of charge on the cover of the UK computer magazine, Computer Shopper, in order to regain market share and enlarge the user base. Today, from SOS mag to the Times, from the Economist to Newsweek, to every CD layout we do, everything is done on InDesign.

Avid has now done away with amateur and professional divisions and will begin to integrate its products, but it continues to make the deadly mistake of not seeing the need for lateral integration. It considers the video market to be a different market (and to be a separate division in the company) to the audio market. It still has done NOTHING about multimedia and has not one website building programme, so having done out music in PT, done the video in Avid, we still have to go out and buy something from Adobe!

And the real threat in the 'prosumer' market is Apple.

As far as sales are concerned, Logic wipes the floor with PT and Final Cut wipes the floor with Avid.

We are seeing now, new entrants to the higher-end audio market go for a dedicated recorder, or one of the hundreds of break-out boxes on the market, combined with cheap software. This is often Radar and Logic, but for the more budget operator, it could be a break-out box and Reaper. The new entrants to the market are agnostic in their choice of software and, when told that going down the PT path will mean spending $25,000 for a full-blown rig, are now opting for something that gives them a smoother upgrade path. The average punter does not want to spend thousands on 003-this and G-something-that, only to be told that if he wants to enjoy 24 or 48 IOs of multitrack and unlimited virtual tracks, he can throw it all away and start again.

So Avid have a choice, they either become a multimedia creation SW supplier which allows for a seamless upgrade path from bedroom camcorder and audio to fully professional (in the same way that Adobe and Apple structure their products) or they can sell it to someone like Sony.

The one thing that they cannot do, is to carry on as they have done, continuing to loose both money and market share.
Old 30th March 2010
  #693
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sardi's Avatar
 

Old 30th March 2010
  #694
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mbradzick's Avatar
I've invested my money in PT LE over my former DAW, Cubase, simply because PT offers me the most cross-compatibility, ease-of-editing functionality and a few other features I sorely miss in other DAWs.

However, I said it before and I'll say it again. Apple indeed is the elephant in the room...a big one. And if they came out with a DAW that offered the same audio editing capabilities, functionality and reliability as PT, this convo would be moot, because I'm sure it would integrate seamlessly with FCP. Something that PT does not.

And yes, I know about Soundtrack and the .001% of the user base, so that hasn't been the answer. Overall, because Apple was able to profit off of selling computers while moonlighting as an excellent software maker, they're able to win over more and more people every year with their pro-sumer products.
Old 30th March 2010
  #695
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Yikes, RedOne does everything in Logic, he'll be shocked to know he's a "Prosumer"!



TH
Old 30th March 2010
  #696
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mbradzick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
Yikes, RedOne does everything in Logic, he'll be shocked to know he's a "Prosumer"!



TH
Hey...my 003 is as pro-sumer as it gets! The lines between pro and consumer have been blurred more than ever, especially by Apple. FCP is a flagship example. In fact, I think that market is the only place Avid stands to make any money.

I think PT had the right idea in OS 9...offer a free, fully-functional DAW with an 8-track limit. Sooner or later you're gonna want the real deal. I did.
Old 30th March 2010
  #697
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by songbirdsound View Post

Apple indeed is the elephant in the room...a big one. And if they came out with a DAW that offered the same audio editing capabilities, functionality and reliability as PT, this convo would be moot
But they won't. Simply because their return on investment would be too small.
Old 30th March 2010
  #698
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Sugarnutz's Avatar
My problem with Digi is that they can't even get what they have work properly. I purchased two Profire 2626's because Digi advertised with M-Powered it would do 18 I/O @ 96 KHz, not! It will only do 12 I/O and 14 with an additional 2 channel convertor. I have an 18 channel console and was led to believe that this would fulfill my needs, but it won't due to fabricated restrictions in the software. I am currently trying to get Avid to refund my investment and will take them to court if not able to. I also lost a $1000 job because of this short coming, not happy with Digi at all.
Old 30th March 2010
  #699
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotstuff View Post
For us LE users what we really need and want is ADC.

This alone should be the biggest priority for Digidesign on the next release, I think that this alone will determine whether the loyal users will stay or move on.

What I dont understand is the attitude towards Digidesign, its as if the system all of a sudden doesn´t work anymore or is broken, I see programs with a lot of new features but at the same time i hear more and more bad mixes and bad music, the programs have more and more features but it seems that people boast more about there equipment than their ability's to make good mixes or produce great songs.

Aside from the workaround caused by the lack of ADC Protools LE gives you the tools to produce great music as it is.

Hotstuff
Agreed! I´m so tired of pinging UAD plug-ins all the time.
A good reason to switch DAW, is the lack of ADC.

Hope Digi have the balls to make the change for us LE user before it´s to late.
Old 30th March 2010
  #700
Lives for gear
i'm pretty much done with digi after 11 years and all this recent acitivity in the company has just put me over the top. i'm selling off my digi002 this weeks and getting a better interface for logic with my rosetta and lunchbox. glad i'm finally happy and can just focus on making music with ease
Old 30th March 2010
  #701
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otobianki74's Avatar
 

I adore pro tools.
Old 30th March 2010
  #702
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Please stand.....

Very good replies. I believe the time is now Avid. Remember, holding on to your product is only as good as what people want to pay for it. It is vital to integrate the line or stop the damn limitations of LE and it's dung hardware. It's time to let go of the Jim Crow approach Avid. Stop the segregation and the practice of "seperate but equal." We have had enough. It's not difficult Avid, simply please all of your customers, not just the upper echelon. Let go of the elitist perspective and start from the ground up.
Old 31st March 2010
  #703
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Sugarnutz's Avatar
I have always enjoyed using Protools because it fits my workflow and is actually pretty simple. But, after what I've been through lately I think I'm going with Samplitude. I can trade in my old Mix+ 6.4.1 CD and get a crossgrade to Samp 11, the 64 track version for about $300, not a bad deal.
Old 31st March 2010
  #704
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mbradzick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But they won't. Simply because their return on investment would be too small.
What's their return on investment for Garageband, Logic, FCP and Soundtrack? Probably enough, given that they've enticed a hell of a lot of users to convert to Apple based on what their software does on their machines only...

Just a thought.
Old 31st March 2010
  #705
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by songbirdsound View Post
What's their return on investment for Garageband, Logic, FCP and Soundtrack? Probably enough, given that they've enticed a hell of a lot of users to convert to Apple based on what their software does on their machines only...

Just a thought.

Prime point that one !!
Old 31st March 2010
  #706
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But they won't. Simply because their return on investment would be too small.
The economics involved in selling a high-end native package is very different from what Avid needs to deal with when producing a high-end 'hardware based' solution. Someone mentioned an article about this the Lexicon thread. Sometimes greed doesn't pay.
Old 31st March 2010
  #707
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cinealta's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
Avid is now 22 years old and has NEVER been able to make a profit. The new CEO is on orders to turn this hopeless basket case around. The shareholders are no longer prepared to see good money being thrown after bad. If he cannot get this turkey off the ground, the shareholders will be looking for a takeover partner. The one thing that they cannot do, is to carry on as they have done, continuing to loose both money and market share.
From the fields of Bannockburn, the Highlander speaks the truth.

Avid is done. Avid's stock is roughly 1/6th the value of what it was just 5 years ago. Talent has jumped ship (you can't lure Silicon Valley engineers with worthless stock options). Avid continues to hemorrhage: losses of $68M (FY2009), $198M (FY2008), $8M (FY2007), $43M (FY2006)...do you see a pattern? They'll either have to sell off the assets or face a shareholder lawsuit for mismanagement and dereliction of fiduciary duties.

All of Avid's audio revenues combined (Digidesign, M Audio, Sibelius etc) are only 32% of total. Digidesign alone is only 17% of total revenues. Avid & Digidesign are done regardless of how many copies of Pro Tools are sold in the next 1-2 years.

Three years from now, an Icon will be worthless, PT 8 will not be updated for Mac OS X 11.0. Native is the future. Don't think for a second Apple won't be using Intel's 16-core (quad) Sandy Bridge CPUs in 2011 or 32-core (quad) Haswell CPUs in 2013.
Old 31st March 2010
  #708
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by songbirdsound View Post
What's their return on investment for Garageband, Logic, FCP and Soundtrack? Probably enough, given that they've enticed a hell of a lot of users to convert to Apple based on what their software does on their machines only...

Just a thought.
Probably the same as Itunes. They don't need to make anything on the sale of their software. They just want you to buy a faster Mac to run it all on.

Digidesign doesn't have that luxury with Native systems.
Old 31st March 2010
  #709
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drew's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
Three years from now, an Icon will be worthless, PT 8 will not be updated for Mac OS X 11.0. Native is the future. Don't think for a second Apple won't be using Intel's 16-core (quad) Sandy Bridge CPUs in 2011 or 32-core (quad) Haswell CPUs in 2013.
No, it just means Digi will be sold off as an asset (for pennies on the dollar) and go back to being a separate company or part of another company. Privately held I'm guessing. Same way Steinberg has been tossed around in the past 6 years. The PT "brand" is too valuable not to be bought by someone. Hell even Alesis was worth something to Numark.
Old 31st March 2010
  #710
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mbradzick's Avatar
The rawest, most awesome deal we'd probably ever see in our lifetime would be if Apple bought Digi and kept Pro Tools more or less the same, adding OMF, ADC, FCP integration and unlimited tracks.
Old 31st March 2010
  #711
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

I dont use PT but every studio I go to has it and I know it pretty well.... the best thing about digidesign is just that, you can go into a studio and be familiar... if native takes over as the benchmark engineers would have to learn like 5 different DAW's which will just start more DAW's dont null threads...

I cant see anyway digidesign will just die off... too many people are into in... plus most institutions teach on pro tools and why wouldnt they... if apple bought digidesign it would not be awesome... imagine the PC rage! heh Logic not being on windows is lame... I used to use it, now im on a mac but im too used to cubase to go back to logic....
Old 31st March 2010
  #712
Gear Maniac
 
drp audio's Avatar
 

Man, I made the switch to PT about a year and a half ago to "join the ranks". Lately I have been a little disappointed with that move, for various reasons, and I've been thinking hard about Nuendo. Now someone mentions that Steinberg has been bobbled around lately too. Seems like no DAW is a safe bet these days

I've been ready to spend a little $$ lately, not much but what I can afford on some mics and plug-ins. This could be a tougher decision than I expected. Hopefully Avid is not in as bad a shape as folks are supposing. Although in my experience companies are usually much worse off than even the sharpest customers pick up on.

Personally, I'm custom building hardware gear like a madman lately, and I'm glad that I still have my multi-track tape recorder and console and that they are in good working condition!

(Hey Kenny, medium while no speak!)
Old 31st March 2010
  #713
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mbradzick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suda Badri View Post
if apple bought digidesign it would not be awesome... imagine the PC rage! heh Logic not being on windows is lame... I used to use it, now im on a mac but im too used to cubase to go back to logic....
Yeah, didn't really think about that, although I only know one hobbyist who uses PT on Windows.

I think Logic just really ate into Digi's market share in the native/home-recordist market with their Garageband-Logic path built in. However, no one I know uses Logic in the pro studio/post audio world.
Old 31st March 2010
  #714
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by songbirdsound View Post
Yeah, didn't really think about that, although I only know one hobbyist who uses PT on Windows.

I think Logic just really ate into Digi's market share in the native/home-recordist market with their Garageband-Logic path built in. However, no one I know uses Logic in the pro studio/post audio world.
Yeah I wish more post pro places would pick up logic, but most post pro studios in NZ all run windows or linux (weta and their subsidaries, I think avatar was all compiled on linuz based software/systems)... having said that most of the media schools all use macs here so logic could take over soon...
Old 31st March 2010
  #715
Lives for gear
around me i'm seeing everyday ex pt tle users who wanted to move up and tried the le native approach just end up on logic. i have already move for now and have learned it. i have a lot of possibilities now. it use to be wow, protools should have the new thing any day but given the climate change over there it's looking doubtful :P

at the end of the day for me it's about the music and a daw i can use. as long as i can make music the way i want too in the best way i will do that and that's logic 9
Old 31st March 2010
  #716
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gainreduction's Avatar
 

Seems like once again it's the LE users complaining... Everything you want is in HD so for a discussion like this to be relevant you should not refera to LE as Protools as it is, as been said a million times before a LIMITED edition of the software/hardware combo that is the real Protools.

20 years back as a teenager when all we had in our studio was a Tascam 1/2 inch 8-track we did not bitch and moan about it not having the trackcount of the bigger models.
Old 31st March 2010
  #717
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
Narcoman usually talks sense, but in this case, his postings just are so wide of reality to be absurd - Sorry, but that's the way it is. You are, in this issue at least, living in a parallel universe!

I seem to remember the definition of a business as being an activity, entered into in pursuance of monetary reward. If that is to be our definition, then Avid is not a business!

Here are some facts -

The newer Accel chips are used in HD cards, not because they are better, but because Motorola could not supply chips in such small numbers. That gives you an idea of just how small the professional market really is!

Avid is now 22 years old and has NEVER been able to make a profit. The new CEO is on orders to turn this hopeless basket case around. The shareholders are no longer prepared to see good money being thrown after bad. If he cannot get this turkey off the ground, the shareholders will be looking for a takeover partner. Sony and Adobe are favourites, with others, like Apple playing hard-to-get. Sony would be very interested, because it needs to get back into the audio-video driving seat as soon as possible.

But even Sony know that Avid are playing at the Last-Chance Saloon and will feel no great need to be generous!

The pro market is totally unimportant today. There was a time, perhaps 25 years ago, when the professional market was the figure head and prestige jewel in the crown, to give credence to the consumer product. The $100,000 Sony studio camera helped to sell the $1,000 Sony home camera.

The pro-audio market was also big enough to make a profit. Studer and Otari could sell hundreds of 24-tracks, Amek and SSL and all the others could sell hundreds of desks.

That is no longer the case and all the successful marques are targeting the amateur and prosumer markets.

Today, there is NO PERCEIVED DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY between consumer audio products and professional products. For that reason, professionals are just not finding any need any more to buy products that cost many, many thousands. CMOS chips in cameras are now producing film quality beyond that of HD TV. My £500 laptop has hi-res sampling and 5.1 sound and is loaded with software that can perform every audio and video task that used to take a massive studio.

ProTools is going down the exact same path that Quark Xpress went down in DTP. It too was somewhat arrogant and decided that dealing with the amateur market was a different market to the professional. When Adobe decided to put PageMaker on steroids and call it InDesign, Quark largely ignored it. It had 90% of the professional layout market, so why bother?

InDesign was better and cheaper and was all-native. More importantly, it came bundled with Photoshop and other vital tools for media creation. By 2005, Quark was reduced to distributing a Windows version of QuarkXPress 5 to be distributed free of charge on the cover of the UK computer magazine, Computer Shopper, in order to regain market share and enlarge the user base. Today, from SOS mag to the Times, from the Economist to Newsweek, to every CD layout we do, everything is done on InDesign.

Avid has now done away with amateur and professional divisions and will begin to integrate its products, but it continues to make the deadly mistake of not seeing the need for lateral integration. It considers the video market to be a different market (and to be a separate division in the company) to the audio market. It still has done NOTHING about multimedia and has not one website building programme, so having done out music in PT, done the video in Avid, we still have to go out and buy something from Adobe!

And the real threat in the 'prosumer' market is Apple.

As far as sales are concerned, Logic wipes the floor with PT and Final Cut wipes the floor with Avid.

We are seeing now, new entrants to the higher-end audio market go for a dedicated recorder, or one of the hundreds of break-out boxes on the market, combined with cheap software. This is often Radar and Logic, but for the more budget operator, it could be a break-out box and Reaper. The new entrants to the market are agnostic in their choice of software and, when told that going down the PT path will mean spending $25,000 for a full-blown rig, are now opting for something that gives them a smoother upgrade path. The average punter does not want to spend thousands on 003-this and G-something-that, only to be told that if he wants to enjoy 24 or 48 IOs of multitrack and unlimited virtual tracks, he can throw it all away and start again.

So Avid have a choice, they either become a multimedia creation SW supplier which allows for a seamless upgrade path from bedroom camcorder and audio to fully professional (in the same way that Adobe and Apple structure their products) or they can sell it to someone like Sony.

The one thing that they cannot do, is to carry on as they have done, continuing to loose both money and market share.
Post of the year!
Old 31st March 2010
  #718
I'll preface this by saying I love Protools. Honestly. Granted, its got its downsides and there are many other great options. Whatever it takes to get from point A to point B. And I'll say that if Brand X's DAW is the pro standard of tomorrow and thats the gorilla platform, then of course I'll switch...

..But I gather from some of these posts that people will just up and sell their ICONS, their PT HD rigs, etc. I think even for years to come after the end/whatever of Avid, people are going to hang onto these things and use them far into the future. I mean, for pete's sake, I still run into someone every once in a while that has an 888/Mix Farm rig they still use [or at least want to keep around for whatever reason]. Also, keep in mind how many millions of ProTools session files have been created in the last 10 years alone. People will not just abandon their old archives, old sessions and the hardware used to open them. Even with digital's take over, people still hung onto their 2" machines for yearrrrss.

Unless we all fall into the same economic growth we experienced over ten years ago, I doubt anyone will immediately ditch what theyve relied on for years just for the sake of a new product. After all, we're talking about something much more dominant in the industry than a DAT.

That said, buckle me in. I'm here for the ride.
Old 31st March 2010
  #719
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
Seems like once again it's the LE users complaining... Everything you want is in HD so for a discussion like this to be relevant you should not refera to LE as Protools as it is, as been said a million times before a LIMITED edition of the software/hardware combo that is the real Protools.

20 years back as a teenager when all we had in our studio was a Tascam 1/2 inch 8-track we did not bitch and moan about it not having the trackcount of the bigger models.

i'm not a pt le user... i use logic with rosettas and high end pres.problem is every other company has moved onto something better that has much of the power of a hd system. sure le is limited but by definition compared to all the competition what is limited has changed and the whole go to hd if you don't like le is broken. 5 years ago what you said would be the truth but not anymore. investing in a hd system these days right now for a new user would be very risky given the climate over there at avid. there are some le users bitching sure but there are aslo people giving real opnions and giving them based upon facts and the market. avid/digi is the only company who has not updated anything and because of this they are where they are now. it's not all about adc or price tag ect. it's about catching up and getting on the ball with the rest of the world and not trying to pass off crap.

many ex le users are now grown up and investing in bigger and better things and someone looking to upgrade would be crazy to consider any digi/avid porduct right now with the way things are going and the future to come.
Old 31st March 2010
  #720
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg082 View Post
many ex le users are now grown up and investing in bigger and better things and someone looking to upgrade would be crazy to consider any digi/avid porduct right now with the way things are going and the future to come.
Nothing has changed in the last 20 + years of computers I paid $12,000 for a mac IIFX and $3000.00 for 650MB hard drive in 1989.
There is always something better around the corner.

Digidesign is the only company ( I can think of) that gives you trades ins on old gear.
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