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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 29th March 2010
  #661
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ETA: What we of course could see is that Avid would make a hardware based high-end solution AND a native high end solution, and let themarket the decide. It's probably true that desktops Macs and PCs will become more expensive soon, since fewer and fewer people actually need them.

This could of course be said about super-high end DAWs as well.

Apple is soon making as smuch money on their 10% or whatever thy have of the PC market as Microsoft makes on the 80-90%, and maybe that will be the situation in the DAW world as well. It would make sense, because Avid apparently wants to sell hardware, while Apple is becoming more and more of a software (OS etc) company.
Old 29th March 2010
  #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
A well renowned DAW dealer told me last year that they sold 20 Logic systems for each TDM system they sold.
Almost everyone that comes in to our studio has a MacBookPro with an Mbox. So in my world the Mbox to Logic ratio is probably around 20-1..
Old 29th March 2010
  #663
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Most pro facilities (which I'll define as studios where the folks out in front of the microphones are being paid to be there) have had Pro Tools for a decade and switched to recording into it right after HD came out. No other DAW has come up with anything that would make pro studios want to replace their system. That would require something an order of magnitude better. Even then studios need to be able to reopen decades old projects so they have to keep Pro Tools around. A professional audio standard is largely defined by the economic value of the recordings recorded in that format. Avid/Digidesign simply won that race years ago.

There is simply no professional market for an "as good as or slightly better than but cheaper" DAW. The format compatibility issue alone makes it not worth the hassle.

Avid's biggest problem is that they are competing with themselves.
Old 29th March 2010
  #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
...It's probably true that desktops Macs and PCs will become more expensive soon, since fewer and fewer people actually need them...
PeeCee workstations have already been going up for a couple years.
Old 29th March 2010
  #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
So you think that the above represents the "big numbers" of daw users?
I respectfully think that you're out of touch.

I would bet (just guessing here) that for every "post" user (what you stated plus studios, etc) there are more than 10 (EDIT 100) "pre" users (playing and/or creating) music.

Not in the professional world. And not by a factor of ten at least!!! The religious broadcast industry ALONE is worth more than the entire pop industry.

I own a major UK audio outsource company for films and other media entities (tv and games being major players these days). Most people making music are not inputting anything into the industry. Hence some of my (probably rather cutting) comments about hobbyists. The "hobbyist" market is now over..... everyone has what they need. The areas still open for exploitation are the professional market - and by a REALLY big gap - making songs is a tiny fraction of the business. Post, VO (by far the biggest - in any country) and other areas I have mentioned are the big areas. Which is precisely why companies like mine exist and why VO studios can charge £150 and hour and yet music studios can't.
Old 29th March 2010
  #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Most pro facilities (which I'll define as studios where the folks out in front of the microphones are being paid to be there) have had Pro Tools for a decade and switched to recording into it right after HD came out. No other DAW has come up with anything that would make pro studios want to replace their system. That would require something an order of magnitude better. Even then studios need to be able to reopen decades old projects so they have to keep Pro Tools around. A professional audio standard is largely defined by the economic value of the recordings recorded in that format. Avid/Digidesign simply won that race years ago.

There is simply no professional market for an "as good as or slightly better than but cheaper" DAW. The format compatibility issue alone makes it not worth the hassle.

Avid's biggest problem is that they are competing with themselves.
great post Bob.
Old 29th March 2010
  #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Not in the professional world. And not by a factor of ten at least!!! The religious broadcast industry ALONE is worth more than the entire pop industry.

I own a major UK audio outsource company for films and other media entities (tv and games being major players these days). Most people making music are not inputting anything into the industry. Hence some of my (probably rather cutting) comments about hobbyists. The "hobbyist" market is now over..... everyone has what they need. The areas still open for exploitation are the professional market - and by a REALLY big gap - making songs is a tiny fraction of the business. Post, VO and other areas I have mentioned are the big areas. Which is precisely why companies like mine exist and why VO studios can charge £150 and hour and yet music studios can't.
+1 for Los Angeles too.
Old 29th March 2010
  #668
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post


A well renowned DAW dealer told me last year that they sold 20 Logic systems for each TDM system they sold.
That's right - but for nearly all of those Logic buyers that's it for them as most of them are not professional users. There is no more market to GET out of them..... The high end market is smaller - but it is buoyant. Simply because being in business (and I mean business - if you're not turning over at least $six figures then you're just surviving) entails new tools from time to time. I've purchased every release of PT TDM (several systems in fact) since it first came out - each subsequent edition added new features a business like ours needed. The edit rooms in our place do indeed have lower spec systems - LE and Nuendo as it happens.....

I'm basically trying to make a differential between the amateur (note I didn't say untalented - just not earning okay?) and professional marketplace. The amateur buyer is not a repeat customer!!
Old 29th March 2010
  #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Not in the professional world. And not by a factor of ten at least!!! The religious broadcast industry ALONE is worth more than the entire pop industry.

I own a major UK audio outsource company for films and other media entities (tv and games being major players these days). Most people making music are not inputting anything into the industry. Hence some of my (probably rather cutting) comments about hobbyists. The "hobbyist" market is now over..... everyone has what they need. The areas still open for exploitation are the professional market - and by a REALLY big gap - making songs is a tiny fraction of the business. Post, VO (by far the biggest - in any country) and other areas I have mentioned are the big areas. Which is precisely why companies like mine exist and why VO studios can charge £150 and hour and yet music studios can't.

"Most people making music are not inputting anything into the industry"

What can be said to such a absurd statement?
Those guys pay their daw's, plugs and VI just as your pro company does, and as I said they outnumber you by probably 1000:1

IMO you view your world as THE world. Saying that the "hobbyists market in now over" is absurd. There is constant transformation, with 10's of thousands of youngsters coming in each year.
Old 29th March 2010
  #670
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
"Most people making music are not inputting anything into the industry"

What can be said to such a absurd statement?
Those guys pay their daw's, plugs and VI just as your pro company does, and as I said they outnumber you by probably 1000:1

IMO you view your world as THE world. Saying that the "hobbyists market in now over" is absurd. There is constant transformation, with 10's of thousands of youngsters coming in each year.
Dont be silly ..... - what I'm saying is that the HUGE explosion from early 2000s to now is done. Yup a few thousands new buyers each year. Combat that with the nearer millions to begin with!! The explosion is over.

The initial part of the comment reflects that most people making music are not part of the financial worth of the industry. It's not an insult - but I have about £100k to spend each year on equipment updates. My other company a similar amount. Most people dont!! A huge chunk of the purchases made at a local music equip retailers where we are based is from ten or so clients....my company being one of them.... The differential between the huge buying power the home user had compared to the professional ten years ago is vastly reduced. For sure more money is spent in the professional sector than the home market in 2010. Wasn't the case even 5 years ago - but it is now.
Old 29th March 2010
  #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Yup a few thousands new buyers each year.


Sorry for the repeated facepalms but decidedly we don't live in the same world. Good for you that you spend so much each year. Most big studios (the one's that aren't closing) are spending very little. And there are literally 100's of thousands of new musicians each year, that is some way use electronic media.
Old 29th March 2010
  #672
Moderator
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post


Sorry for the repeated facepalms but decidedly we don't live in the same world. Good for you that you spend so much each year. Most big studios (the one's that aren't closing) are spending very little. And there are literally 100's of thousands of new musicians each year, that is some way use electronic media.
If there were hundreds of thousands of new guys each year then this would be reflected in some ways in DAw sales. Certainly isn't !!

The whole point of this thread though, is a look at Digis next move - the common observation that they're downsizing (as have Steinberg and the rest of them over the last year) reflects a saturated home market. The professional market is unchanged (apart from some studio closing - but as I've mentioned, music recording studios have never been the majority of recording work. Biggest purchaser of, for example, audio equipment? broadcast, the military and religious broadcast.... !!). Count the number of recording studios in London for music, then compare them to the VO places..... BIg difference.

The home user market place is saturated - there is very little money to be made. !
Old 29th March 2010
  #673
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
I'm basically trying to make a differential between the amateur (note I didn't say untalented - just not earning okay?) and professional marketplace. The amateur buyer is not a repeat customer!!
well said. the amateurs aren't really return customers, they're EVERYBODY's customers. they'll bounce from daw to daw until they just figure out that nothing's perfect.
avid kind of got into a tricky spot by entering into the amateur market, though. as much as the seriously invested users may gripe about how the amateur users want all the features at half the cost, well, of COURSE they do. by introducing the LE line, digi/avid opened that pandora's box, and is now probably feeling the pressure to compete for that market.

also, there are different tiers of professional users, and the smaller guys might not need HD, might not be able to afford it, but are getting killed with the limitations of LE. the shame is that they really like the software, but even the upgrade paths to add (still limited) features just don't make economic sense, especially compared to the other options available for the same (or less) money.
either way, i SERIOUSLY doubt that the high-roller bigtime pro users are gonna get left by the wayside. Even if they roll out a completely native, uncrippled version of PT, i'm pretty sure that they'll likewise continue to offer compatible hardware acceleration for those applications that simply require it. i doubt that market is going to go away, despite whatever native competition there might be.

Old 29th March 2010
  #674
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Most pro facilities (which I'll define as studios where the folks out in front of the microphones are being paid to be there) have had Pro Tools for a decade and switched to recording into it right after HD came out. No other DAW has come up with anything that would make pro studios want to replace their system. That would require something an order of magnitude better. Even then studios need to be able to reopen decades old projects so they have to keep Pro Tools around. A professional audio standard is largely defined by the economic value of the recordings recorded in that format. Avid/Digidesign simply won that race years ago.

There is simply no professional market for an "as good as or slightly better than but cheaper" DAW. The format compatibility issue alone makes it not worth the hassle.

Avid's biggest problem is that they are competing with themselves.
Very true.

And I don't see any other company even needing to try. They're tackling the lower end. Programs like Reaper and Live have no need to be installing 100k systems.

The only question for Avid is whether they can keep new sales up enough to remain viable.

Lots of top tier companies go out of business simply because there aren't enough top tier customers.
Old 29th March 2010
  #675
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
...The only question for Avid is whether they can keep new sales up enough to remain viable...
If they can't, they'll just be acquired by Sony.
Old 29th March 2010
  #676
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mbradzick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
If they can't, they'll just be acquired by Sony.
Seriously?
Old 29th March 2010
  #677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post

The only question for Avid is whether they can keep new sales up enough to remain viable.

Lots of top tier companies go out of business simply because there aren't enough top tier customers.
This is the salient point really...

Just as Narcoman asserts that the home/hobbyist market is dwindling, how many big studio's and post houses are left to satisfy Avid's shareholders? How much headroom is left in the high-end market.

I can bet that there is a lot more in the small and mid sized home studio and professional markets.

If Avid can satisfy their LE users and offer a long term vision to convince their HD customers they could actually do pretty well. A well spec'd Pro Tools Native option at a 'fair' price is something I would consider.
Old 29th March 2010
  #678
Lives for gear
It always becomes a debate about pro users and amateur users when it comes to pro tools. That disgusts me. I have no need to be told about what AVID is going to do next either.(As far as updates and new releases are concerned). They are surely going to release over priced products, so either way, they get the palm with four fingers curled in from me. What does concern me and should concern the average consumer, is how AVID purposely separates there product lines. According to Narco, the prosumer market has no more money. Fair enough. However, logic, research, experience, and living in the most Capitalistic nation in the world, has taught me better. Lets say the huge influx of prosumers has dwindled and now that market has very little money, as Narco states(I believe him btw) Hmmmm... Then why does DIGI still have a Low End line? Its logical to say that most of the LE users are working musicians. Hence my next point: The masses drive the world and the elitist snobs steer the car. Its irony to the fullest. So even if the bubble has bursted on the amateur market, it still holds tremendous power and money. They are not dropping LE from there line-up anytime soon and IMO never. Look at there new releases for instance. Yup, intended for the prosumer. Look at there HD line. Unchanged for years. They suck the life blood of hard working people just as any other Wall Street company. And while I do believe that pro users have more expenses and buy more repeatedly than the amateur user, both markets share an equal amount of interest to AVID, with the heavier being the masses. When I worked at guitar center, we sold lots of pro tools systems to religious groups. Guess what, they were LE systems. AVID gets no respect from me and I still stand behind smashing there products when I have the money.
Old 29th March 2010
  #679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmain View Post
They suck the life blood of hard working people just as any other Wall Street company. And while I do believe that pro users have more expenses and buy more repeatedly than the amateur user, both markets share an equal amount of interest to AVID, with the heavier being the masses. When I worked at guitar center, we sold lots of pro tools systems to religious groups. Guess what, they were LE systems.
Fair points, but let us be honest - it is a business, not a charity.

Meaning Avid WILL FOLLOW THE MONEY. If they can see a way to increase revenue and build another market by making newer cheaper hardware or offering a native option or other HD-Native hybrids, they will.

If Avid push out another expensive HD piece of hardware as a new model and continue to throw used bones to their LE users, then we can assume that their current business model and future confidence is doing just fine.

We shall see.
Old 29th March 2010
  #680
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmain View Post
It always becomes a debate about pro users and amateur users when it comes to pro tools. That disgusts me. I have no need to be told about what AVID is going to do next either.(As far as updates and new releases are concerned). They are surely going to release over priced products, so either way, they get the palm with four fingers curled in from me. What does concern me and should concern the average consumer, is how AVID purposely separates there product lines. According to Narco, the prosumer market has no more money. Fair enough. However, logic, research, experience, and living in the most Capitalistic nation in the world, has taught me better. Lets say the huge influx of prosumers has dwindled and now that market has very little money, as Narco states(I believe him btw) Hmmmm... Then why does DIGI still have a Low End line? Its logical to say that most of the LE users are working musicians. Hence my next point: The masses drive the world and the elitist snobs steer the car. Its irony to the fullest. So even if the bubble has bursted on the amateur market, it still holds tremendous power and money. They are not dropping LE from there line-up anytime soon and IMO never. Look at there new releases for instance. Yup, intended for the prosumer. Look at there HD line. Unchanged for years. They suck the life blood of hard working people just as any other Wall Street company. And while I do believe that pro users have more expenses and buy more repeatedly than the amateur user, both markets share an equal amount of interest to AVID, with the heavier being the masses. When I worked at guitar center, we sold lots of pro tools systems to religious groups. Guess what, they were LE systems. AVID gets no respect from me and I still stand behind smashing there products when I have the money.
I don't understand why customers feel the need to decide what companies charge for their product.

All we, as customers, can do is research the options and buy what we want or need and can still responsibly afford.

The problem is that when we find that point we always prefer the next level up.

Isn't that "customer greed"?
Old 29th March 2010
  #681
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No offense Mr. Gioia, but that seems to derive from a complacent perspective. I speak on behalf of the prosumer. Education and awareness are key in today's society, so I understand most of us are not capable of comprehension. The consumer(you can label them greedy, but don't forget the companies) has an unprecedented amount of jurisdiction in capitalism. They simply aren't aware of it. We, in reality, can and should determine the price of any good. We are responsible for the revenues generated by most all companies. Not companies like AVID. Taking us out of the picture, is out the question. LE is here to stay. They need to conform to our wants, not there greed. Im slightly moved by consumer greed in this reference. As you can tell, my perspective bleeds beyond AVID and into society as a whole. Everything is over priced because we cant control inflation. 5,000 for a Core card that was built 5+ years ago? SMH.
Old 29th March 2010
  #682
Lives for gear
And inflation has nothing to do with a $5,000 core card.
Old 30th March 2010
  #683
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmain View Post
No offense Mr. Gioia, but that seems to derive from a complacent perspective. I speak on behalf of the prosumer. Education and awareness are key in today's society, so I understand most of us are not capable of comprehension. The consumer(you can label them greedy, but don't forget the companies) has an unprecedented amount of jurisdiction in capitalism. They simply aren't aware of it. We, in reality, can and should determine the price of any good. We are responsible for the revenues generated by most all companies. Not companies like AVID. Taking us out of the picture, is out the question. LE is here to stay. They need to conform to our wants, not there greed. Im slightly moved by consumer greed in this reference. As you can tell, my perspective bleeds beyond AVID and into society as a whole. Everything is over priced because we cant control inflation. 5,000 for a Core card that was built 5+ years ago? SMH.
Everything is overpriced?

Can you build an HD card for $5,000.00? No?

But they should?

The only power the consumer has is to buy or not buy a product. That's all. Everything else is just pontificating in an area that you do not specialize in.

And why should we care? Other than our own needs.

Avid has their own goals and it may not coincide with every consumer. But that is their problem.
Old 30th March 2010
  #684
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It's so much easier to run a big company from a forum, far less real technology & employees to deal with.

From what i see in these threads, people want to hybrid all the companies best ideas together in one product, and then price it with the entry level products.

You can look at just about every product forum on the internet and see the same thing....... post release designers (aka consumers).
Opinions & Ideas are overstocked.

I think that from PT v3.0 to PT v8.0, lots of great things have happened and i'll bet more are on their way.
I also think that programs like Logic, Live, Reason, Mixbus, & Record, etc. have spurred peoples imagination to think that you can easily just hybird all these feature together at will without sacrificing a million lines of code and stability.
I'm sure if it was as easy as replying to a post, Digi, Logic, etc. would be doing it, and selling it to us. Just don't screw up what is working.
Old 30th March 2010
  #685
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Denny McNerney's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
It's so much easier to run a big company from a forum, far less real technology & employees to deal with.

From what i see in these threads, people want to hybrid all the companies best ideas together in one product, and then price it with the entry level products.

You can look at just about every product forum on the internet and see the same thing....... post release designers (aka consumers).
Opinions & Ideas are overstocked.

I think that from PT v3.0 to PT v8.0, lots of great things have happened and i'll bet more are on their way.
I also think that programs like Logic, Live, Reason, Mixbus, & Record, etc. have spurred peoples imagination to think that you can easily just hybird all these feature together at will without sacrificing a million lines of code and stability.
I'm sure if it was as easy as replying to a post, Digi, Logic, etc. would be doing it, and selling it to us. Just don't screw up what is working.
bravo, Peter.
Old 30th March 2010
  #686
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I think it's very easy to forget one simple truth in all these discussions....

Avid is very aware of all of this. Their building is not in a submarine with no communication to the mainland.

So if you accept the fact that they know, and that HD sales are not what they used to be, and the LE sales have been hit by hard by Logic and others...

And that Avid has publicly stated on the Digi forums that the native problems (in comparison to say, Logic) that LE has will be addressed...

....one can pretty much see what will be next on the native front from PT. It's only the details and the release date that could possibly be in question.

I don't think you'll see movie studios moving to native, and I don't think you'll see Avid expecting new post houses to invest in HD a year or two from now.

So that kind of explains itself too.

It's really not that hard to figure out. There will be something new on the native front, and something new on the "HD" front.

And we'll all continue to make choices based on our pockets and individual needs. Same as it ever was.

JMHO

TH
Old 30th March 2010
  #687
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
It's so much easier to run a big company from a forum, far less real technology & employees to deal with..

no shareholders to answer to when you drop the prices and dilute the value of your flagship product or expose it to piracy


Quote:
From what i see in these threads, people want to hybrid all the companies best ideas together in one product, and then price it with the entry level products.
Put me on the waiting list for this product! heh

Quote:
You can look at just about every product forum on the internet and see the same thing....... post release designers (aka consumers).
Opinions & Ideas are overstocked.
bravo
what a refreshing drink after all those sour grapes!
Old 30th March 2010
  #688
Gear Maniac
 
scud133's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
If there were hundreds of thousands of new guys each year then this would be reflected in some ways in DAw sales. Certainly isn't !!

The whole point of this thread though, is a look at Digis next move - the common observation that they're downsizing (as have Steinberg and the rest of them over the last year) reflects a saturated home market. The professional market is unchanged (apart from some studio closing - but as I've mentioned, music recording studios have never been the majority of recording work. Biggest purchaser of, for example, audio equipment? broadcast, the military and religious broadcast.... !!). Count the number of recording studios in London for music, then compare them to the VO places..... BIg difference.

The home user market place is saturated - there is very little money to be made. !
i sort of agree with the premise here, but if anyone knows how to beat this scenario, it's Apple, and maybe we can learn from their example.

everyone already has an iPod, and yet they still get everyone to buy new ones.

the "upgrade to the latest and greatest" philosophy absolutely applies to home users and consumers. Remember when the iPhone3G came out... people went nuts trying to ditch their old iPhone to get the new one.

So basically... how can they create that same kind of buzz in the DAW world to overcome the over-saturation problem?
Old 30th March 2010
  #689
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midnightsun's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
I'm basically trying to make a differential between the amateur (note I didn't say untalented - just not earning okay?) and professional marketplace. The amateur buyer is not a repeat customer!!
The amateur market is a complex moving target. For get about music for a minute and consider personal computer sales. Apple and other companies keep pulling rabbits out of their hat and offering innovative entertainment and creativity products that dazzle and redazzle the masses. Droves of young people with pocket money provided by their parents have lap top computers very capable of recording and mixing music. How long does someone really hang on to their laptop or highend home computer? A couple of years? You betcha that Apple is going to continue to be successful at selling computers and other amazing products. Music is going to be a slice of their market. My point is that Apple will continue to be a healthy player and has diversified its foundation. They can always come in and drop a high quality product in the market place for a low ball price and I think that they are deliberately trying to shake up the market and rattle the other players. Remember when they dropped the price of Logic Pro with LP8? But then what...... many people rushed out and had to upgrade from G5 to MacPro. Smart Apple!

I remember Otari. They made fairly affordable pro gear that was within the grasp of some non professional studios line mine (I am using Bob Olhsson's definition where professional means the talent is all being paid for their time...). I owned their products-- tape machines and then purchased their Otari Radar. They seemed like a solid company to me and then all of the sudden........ they folded shop and were gone. My only concern about AVID is that they are trying to cover too many bases and will topple. I am hoping that they will focus on continuing to make rock solid products and not wander into the TASCAM zone in order to try to capture the consumer market. I am really hoping that they will stay in the game.

In my "nonprofessional studio" I am very content with PTHD3, D Command, and digital/analog setup. I welcome any quantum leap by Digi or any other company and I will be the first in line to buy it if it is rock solid and helps me to be creative and efficient. Quality and stability is very important. Something tells me that there is not going to be much in the near future that is going to help me out, other than perhaps moving up from my G5. But thanks to PTHD I am still able to smoke along with my old G5. I am secretly hoping that it will die because I think it would be cool to get a MacPro, but dread having to set up a new computer and iron out the bugs.

I don't understand why so many people are pissed off that Digi could be coming out with something new and improved. If it helps then buy it and if it doesn't then forget about it and continue to work and make music.
Old 30th March 2010
  #690
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scud133 View Post
.

So basically... how can they create that same kind of buzz in the DAW world to overcome the over-saturation problem?
they won't be able to with me.

I have as much GAS as the next guy, but its all about mics, pres, compressors, instruments, room treatments, I hate spending money on software and computer crap. I try to buy wisely and buy seldom.

I think having a DAW for your studio is like having a stove for your restaurant. Of course you need one, now you have one, start cooking.
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