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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 11th January 2010
  #541
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
We just need to finally break the "industry standard" myth and its associated snobbery and then we will have a healthy recording service industry.
But it's not a myth. Make a serious inquiry into most busy pro studios and engineers, and they will tell you how entrenched PT's really is. I've mixed and produced well over 300 songs in the last few years, worked all over the world, and in that time only saw one producer using Logic (and that was on his laptop because the studio we were using in Beijing only had PT). In the last 10 years, I've only had one record come to me for mixing in a format other than PT.

I know a couple of songwriters that use Logic now. The price and included instruments was too good to pass up. . . . In most cases they all bounce to broadcast .wav files when they need to go to a bigger studio for tracking or mixing.

If I had to bounce stuff between DAW's I'd be spending my entire life importing and exporting files. No thanks. I'll stick with the industry standard.
Old 11th January 2010
  #542
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mbradzick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robmix View Post
But it's not a myth. Make a serious inquiry into most busy pro studios and engineers, and they will tell you how entrenched PT's really is. I've mixed and produced well over 300 songs in the last few years, worked all over the world, and in that time only saw one producer using Logic (and that was on his laptop because the studio we were using in Beijing only had PT). In the last 10 years, I've only had one record come to me for mixing in a format other than PT.

I know a couple of songwriters that use Logic now. The price and included instruments was too good to pass up. . . . In most cases they all bounce to broadcast .wav files when they need to go to a bigger studio for tracking or mixing.

If I had to bounce stuff between DAW's I'd be spending my entire life importing and exporting files. No thanks. I'll stick with the industry standard.
I gotta agree. I used to knock PT for this and that, now I just use it. Why? compatibility, even with FCP guys and of course Avid guys. Plus, nothing chops audio like PT and the big films still use Avid. I know it's hard to follow a herd, but PT+Mac is just the most compatible format with the audio/visual industry.

That's just how it is. Now if only Digi would add latency comp and unlimited (or at least 96) track count, they'd make everyone's day, and probably have a lot less haters out there. What Digi/Avid needs to garner is the same fanboy love that Apple generates. Right now they typically get the same salty looks as Windows.

And just from experience, you can make a hit record on Garageband/Mbox or any I/O combo to the Nth degree. If you want to be the one editing that music to picture or mix in someone else's studio, you'll want PT.
Old 11th January 2010
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
To me, comparing Apple to Avid is a lot like comparing Nikon to Rolliflex
Really?

You can't hear if a song is mixed in Logic or PT -- but you can instantly see if a pic is shot with Nikon or Rolleiflex.
Old 11th January 2010
  #544
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Max3000's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Zick View Post

Now if only Digi would add latency comp and unlimited (or at least 96) track count, they'd make everyone's day, and probably have a lot less haters out there.

Bingo. And lose the LE tag. Because if LE had ADC and limited tracks Logic would be less popular.

As you say, editing and functionality in Protools LE and HD is still the benchmark.

I bet Digidesign know this and will implement it soon
Old 12th January 2010
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robmix View Post
But it's not a myth. Make a serious inquiry into most busy pro studios and engineers, and they will tell you how entrenched PT's really is. I've mixed and produced well over 300 songs in the last few years, worked all over the world, and in that time only saw one producer using Logic (and that was on his laptop because the studio we were using in Beijing only had PT). In the last 10 years, I've only had one record come to me for mixing in a format other than PT.

I know a couple of songwriters that use Logic now. The price and included instruments was too good to pass up. . . . In most cases they all bounce to broadcast .wav files when they need to go to a bigger studio for tracking or mixing.

If I had to bounce stuff between DAW's I'd be spending my entire life importing and exporting files. No thanks. I'll stick with the industry standard.
Maybe if I was the discoverer of Christina Aguilera I would get only PT sessions, but I'm getting plenty of Logic and Garageband stuff out here on the fringe. And yeah they need my help prepping for mix, which I am happy to provide.


(The dinosaurs laughed at the rats...)
Old 12th January 2010
  #546
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relaxo's Avatar
I'm in Manhattan and I do about 300-600 PT sessions a year, 4 DP sessions a year, 1 or 2 Logic sessions per year and 1-2 Garageband sessions per year.
Old 12th January 2010
  #547
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
Maybe if I was the discoverer of Christina Aguilera I would get only PT sessions, but I'm getting plenty of Logic and Garageband stuff out here on the fringe. And yeah they need my help prepping for mix, which I am happy to provide.


(The dinosaurs laughed at the rats...)
hehhehheh
Old 12th January 2010
  #548
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Soon we will even be dealing with stuff recorded (and/or programmed) via cell phones, tablets, blackberry etc. Flexibility will be the name of the game or you will become extinct in my opinion. The idea of a software as some sort of an industry standard platform, is from an era that is not going away, but rather an era that has already left the building years ago. Granted people have continued to live off of the scraps of that old system, and granted declines take time, but if you can not recognize that the studio system of old has been uprooted, then there is not much anyone is going to be able to tell you about formats that will change your mind.
Old 12th January 2010
  #549
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all these programs in the hands of someone with talent will produce great results.

I don't see any reason why Digidesign can't have levels of software offerings if they choose. Adobe, Apple, Logic, Cisco, and just about every company i know of offers pro versions & LE versions (or similar).
Why do they have to "give away" all the software development they spend money on?
If you want to work for nothing, feel free.
It's a perfectly fine business model to offer levels of product. I'm not sure where people get off saying that Digidesign or any company should include every feature on a single program offering for all users...... thats just ignorant and that would bankrupt most companies with the tech support calls alone.

Engineers, Producers & Artists are not ignorant cattle, they have decided what to use based on what they like.
Old 12th January 2010
  #550
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It has been my knowledge of multiple DAWs that has kept me employed, but it was my (then) lack of knowledge of PTHD 8 that got me a square look from a very well-known producer I assisted.

It goes without saying, I didn't get hired by the well-known producer for future projects. That's reality.

It's my firm believe that if Apple came out with a DAW that really rivaled PT in terms of editing, functionality, intuitiveness and ease of use, they could give Digi a run for their $ since it could integrate with Final Cut Pro.
Old 12th January 2010
  #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Zick View Post
It's my firm believe that if Apple came out with a DAW that really rivaled PT in terms of editing, functionality, intuitiveness and ease of use, they could give Digi a run for their $ since it could integrate with Final Cut Pro.
Apple is the future I believe but the damn bugs!!! They make the computer, they make the o/s, and they make Logic- it should be rock solid stable!!!
Old 12th January 2010
  #552
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire Prod View Post
Soon we will even be dealing with stuff recorded (and/or programmed) via cell phones, tablets, blackberry etc. Flexibility will be the name of the game or you will become extinct in my opinion. The idea of a software as some sort of an industry standard platform, is from an era that is not going away, but rather an era that has already left the building years ago.


"Industry standard" is about interoperability between one pro studio and another pro studio.

Has some Other DAW demonstrated a superior ability to interface with cell phones?

Or will people who record on their Blackberrys still have to render their audio as .wav files like everybody else?
Old 12th January 2010
  #553
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Zick View Post
It has been my knowledge of multiple DAWs that has kept me employed, but it was my (then) lack of knowledge of PTHD 8 that got me a square look from a very well-known producer I assisted.

It goes without saying, I didn't get hired by the well-known producer for future projects. That's reality.

It's my firm believe that if Apple came out with a DAW that really rivaled PT in terms of editing, functionality, intuitiveness and ease of use, they could give Digi a run for their $ since it could integrate with Final Cut Pro.
They would have to rewrite Logic from the ground up. It will never be PT. The thing that has kept PT at the top of the heap isn't their mediocre hardware, outrageous pricing, etc, it's their simple, clean..."Well, that makes sense" software/interface. Composers at home often don't understand what it's like to work in a studio with a clock running. There is no time for fidgety crap like channel strips flying around when you put them in automation mode, or have to go to another screen to rearrange the tracks for yet another screen. Much less almost non-existent professional tech support.

No one else has the PT interface or workflow. Look at LIVE, or Logic, or Cubase, it should be incredibly obvious if you open each one of those programs and then open PT.

And this is coming from someone who uses Logic daily, because I can't afford HD and am too limited by LE.

TH
Old 12th January 2010
  #554
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mbradzick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
They would have to rewrite Logic from the ground up. It will never be PT. The thing that has kept PT at the top of the heap isn't their mediocre hardware, outrageous pricing, etc, it's their simple, clean..."Well, that makes sense" software/interface. Composers at home often don't understand what it's like to work in a studio with a clock running. There is no time for fidgety crap like channel strips flying around when you put them in automation mode, or have to go to another screen to rearrange the tracks for yet another screen. Much less almost non-existent professional tech support.

No one else has the PT interface or workflow. Look at LIVE, or Logic, or Cubase, it should be incredibly obvious if you open each one of those programs and then open PT.

And this is coming from someone who uses Logic daily, because I can't afford HD and am too limited by LE.

TH
I hear ya. My only derision would be that personally, I've been a Cubase user simply because to me it was the most similar to PT of the DAWs, and of course the unlimited tracks, OMF, latency comp blah blah blah blah.

FCP is a joy to work with. I wish I could say the same for Logic.
Old 12th January 2010
  #555
Whatever they do, I hope they don't drop support for the 002. I just got my modded 002r and would hate to have to switch DAWs cause PT 8.*.* with all my dreamy features (mainly ADC) "No longer supports the 002 or 002r units"
Old 12th January 2010
  #556
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire Prod View Post
Soon we will even be dealing with stuff recorded (and/or programmed) via cell phones, tablets, blackberry etc. Flexibility will be the name of the game or you will become extinct in my opinion. The idea of a software as some sort of an industry standard platform, is from an era that is not going away, but rather an era that has already left the building years ago. Granted people have continued to live off of the scraps of that old system, and granted declines take time, but if you can not recognize that the studio system of old has been uprooted, then there is not much anyone is going to be able to tell you about formats that will change your mind.
Flexibility has always been the key to success in the studio business. Between '94 and 2001 I had Studio Vision, DP, Logic, Paris, DA-88's, and the small PT of the time - Session or whatever it was called. . . .Hell before that we had to run Synclav, Studer Dyaxis, Lexicon Opus, Fairlight, Roland DM, and anything else that popped up on a session. PT emerging as the standard eliminated the need for all of that.

When something else becomes the standard (i.e. meaning the majority of my sessions) I'll happily jump ship, and retire my PT rig to the closet for archives. Until then. . . Recognizing a standard has no bearing on ones ability to move with the times.
Old 12th January 2010
  #557
Lives for gear
There will ALWAYS be some kind of elitist factions in the music recording business. I'be been in this for 40 years and I can't imagine a time when there was no "you can't make a hit without this".

Early on it was a Neve or a Trident. Then API and SSL. And SSL for a long time.

I remember being told "an MCI machine, are you nuts". couldn't buy a ride with one.
Now its a favorite if Gearslutz is any barometer.

Record the vocal without a U47....obviously you had a death wish.

It wlil never change. Guys need to have a way to be one up....even if they aren't.
Old 12th January 2010
  #558
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Well I think everyone should have an MBox Micro. That will open any PT session and let you export. (Those already with an LE rig can buy one in lieu of paying a ridiculous upgrade fee.)

(Posted as I install my spanking new copy of Live 8.1.1 )
Old 12th January 2010
  #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffmo View Post
I remember being told "an MCI machine, are you nuts". couldn't buy a ride with one. Now its a favorite if Gearslutz is any barometer.
heh

I dont know which one sounded worst, the MCI or the Peavey AMR.
Old 12th January 2010
  #560
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post

And this is coming from someone who uses Logic daily, because I can't afford HD and am too limited by LE.

TH
wait.

aren't you supposed to be bitter and sour-grapes-y then? heh

aren't you supposed to express your schadenfreude at each one of Pro Tool's supposed "problems" and predict its imminent demise?
Old 12th January 2010
  #561
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffmo View Post
There will ALWAYS be some kind of elitist factions in the music recording business. I'be been in this for 40 years and I can't imagine a time when there was no "you can't make a hit without this".

Early on it was a Neve or a Trident. Then API and SSL. And SSL for a long time.

I remember being told "an MCI machine, are you nuts". couldn't buy a ride with one.
Now its a favorite if Gearslutz is any barometer.

Record the vocal without a U47....obviously you had a death wish.

It wlil never change. Guys need to have a way to be one up....even if they aren't.

Where are you seeing an elitist attitude ? I haven't seen anyone here say you have to have these things to be successful or even get a gig. You use the tools in front of you to make great music. That's it. Certain tools make it easier - some days it's an SM-57, other days it might be a U47.
Old 12th January 2010
  #562
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mbradzick's Avatar
I think if Apple came out with a DAW focused on audio editing for sound and picture that the film guys picked up, it would hit.

Right now Logic focuses on music creation. Great, but the post houses and indie engineers don't want music production as much as they want to edit sound quickly and easily, on a reliable platform that integrates with their visual counterpart.
Old 12th January 2010
  #563
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Zick View Post
I think if Apple came out with a DAW focused on audio editing for sound and picture that the film guys picked up, it would hit...
They did, it's called Soundtrack. It's up to version 3 and seems to have pretty much layed an egg.
Old 12th January 2010
  #564
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mbradzick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
They did, it's called Soundtrack. It's up to version 3 and seems to have pretty much layed an egg.
I know, I don't know anyone who uses it. I haven't toyed around with it cause, frankly, no one uses it. Maybe it's too geared toward visual, and not enough music. I don't know. Perhaps they're spreading themselves too thin trying to market both Logic and Soundtrack.

Somewhere in there I think they can do it, but, as it stands, Digi has the market. Perhaps there's never going to be "one ring to rule them all." I guess Avid was close but FCP really cut into their market share. So much so, that I think they released Media Composer to compete.

I guess it would be different too if say, 75% of productions used PT and 25% used DAW x. But in reality, I think it's like 95% of productions use PT and 5% use DAW w,x,y,z. There's not really a strong secondary format like FCP to Avid.

That's my perception at least.
Old 12th January 2010
  #565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Zick View Post
I know, I don't know anyone who uses it. I haven't toyed around with it cause, frankly, no one uses it. Maybe it's too geared toward visual, and not enough music. I don't know. Perhaps they're spreading themselves too thin trying to market both Logic and Soundtrack.
Video editors use it. I know several that do, on a regular basis... where there's no money for audio post, the picture editor is expected to deliver all the finals, esp. in the world of corporates and even a lot of web content. Most don't know any other platform, and STP comes with Final Cut Studio, so it's right there.

This is of course when they don't do all the audio post right in Final Cut Pro... which also happens on a regular basis.
Old 13th January 2010
  #566
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal3 View Post
....do all the audio post right in Final Cut Pro.
Old 13th January 2010
  #567
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mbradzick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
LOL. Yeah, FCP audio is kind of well, tutt

But really I'm talking about a parallel universe where Logic operated as intuitively as Pro Tools while giving you the VIs and plugins of Logic. I think then Apple would have a shot at overtaking the music/audio world as well. And because they make more off computers and iphones than they do software, they'd have no reason to tie it to an overrated dongle I/O.

But, I digress. For now it's a Digiworld.
Old 13th January 2010
  #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
They did, it's called Soundtrack. It's up to version 3 and seems to have pretty much layed an egg.
for one thing, it was rife with bugs through its first two versions. it's probably the buggiest piece of software I've ever encountered from Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robmix
I've mixed and produced well over 300 songs in the last few years, worked all over the world, and in that time only saw one producer using Logic (and that was on his laptop because the studio we were using in Beijing only had PT). In the last 10 years, I've only had one record come to me for mixing in a format other than PT.
It's hard for me to believe that out of those 300 songs, all but one were arranged in PT. If that were true, it would be hard to see why Digi would be in financial trouble. Looks to me like PT is the standard among commercial studios, but commercial studios are fewer and fewer in number and are handling less and less of the total music output.

I know a lot of producers in Beijing, and among them, only a small minority use PT for arrangement and sequencing. A huge amount of the music that is "released" over here never passes through a commercial studio per se, it goes straight from the DAW in which it is arranged to its final destination without ever having been mixed / mastered in a proper commercial facility.

-synthoid
Old 13th January 2010
  #569
PDC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vEddY View Post
I agree. Completely.

I had a huge discussion "inside my head" two and a half years ago when I started building my own studio. The usual one - go with PT or not. When I did some basic calculations - it turned out that if I went PTHD (which I really wanted as it is "standard"), I would have zero cash left for outboard and software I need. I took my time, did some research, asked more then a few people that were more "informed" then me and went with RME. Two Fireface 800's and Octamic. In these two and a half years I had a chance to use almost everything from digi's world - PT M-Powered on M-Audio ProjectMix with a friend, and everything from the HD1-HD3 world (with 96 I/O, 192I/O) etc. And I can't, for the life of me, get myself to say that 96/192 I/O have better sound then Apogee, Fireface, Orpheus or a couple of other interfaces. So that's the thing number one - sound quality-wise, PT isn't ahead anymore. It used to be, but it isn't today. Number of effects, tracks? It's still more performance-to-money efficent to buy additional computer and use Logic node to chain it then to buy additional PT DSP cards.

As far as DSP and plugins are concerned (everything from UAD through native effects, Powercore and VST synths) - this way I really have more choices and I prefer it that way. And for the price difference I invested a ****load of money in other things - mic PRE's, synths, headphone amps, monitors, microphones etc etc.

$$-wise, I really believe this was a better deal. And the fact is - today, it's even more of a better deal. I wouldn't mind owning a PTHD rig but I can do everything I need to do with Logic and all of the other stuff I have.

I think that digi lost sense of reality a couple of years ago, and that doesn't have anything to do with the world crysis or anything else. They fell asleep while milking their successful products without contemplating "what will we do in the future". With such a huge gap between their "product lines" (from M-Powered to PTHD - just an example), the fact that they slowly lost a lot of their advantages with time and the fact that you have to be pretty blind not to notice the fact that computers and VGA's are becoming twice as fast every 18 months, they should've known better. It's not "too late", but the clock is ticking and I really hope that they'll show something awesome at NAMM and in the upcoming months. Otherwise... I feel it's gonna be epic downfall.
Here is the thing though. You can want some other cheaper product to beat out the world-wide standard because you cannot afford the world wide standard. But, it doesn't mean that the cheaper product will ever be the next standard, or even be as good. I want my mini-van to do all the things that a Porche will do, but it will not. It will not look as good. It will never have the same appeal, the same quality, the same bling. But it is what I can afford.

I happen to work with a former Digi engineer. He gives me insights into the culture and dynamics there at Digi under Dave. Dave would not let his pet developments go. He was actually holding things back from developing faster than they did. There was a ton of turnover under him. So...I think some of you are expecting it to be better than PT was. If what I am told is true, you may not get your wish.
Old 13th January 2010
  #570
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PMoshay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
I know a lot of producers in Beijing, and among them, only a small minority use PT for arrangement and sequencing. A huge amount of the music that is "released" over here never passes through a commercial studio per se, it goes straight from the DAW in which it is arranged to its final destination without ever having been mixed / mastered in a proper commercial facility.

-synthoid
I frequent Beijing & Taiwan and realize the reason people in Asia use anything is because it can be cracked and used without copy protection.
I doubt that 1 in 100 people using Logic are using a paid for version, and i know this 1st hand.
Many of my friends have me bring real versions of software with me from the USA so they can actually get a real copy with manuals and updates/registration.
Companies may be able to make money there in the future, but as of now they are just getting ripped off.

From what i am seeing China is actually trying to do something about piracy, but its gonna take a looooong time to clean it up.
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