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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 19th December 2009
  #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Oh, my fair reading of your post was that you were foaming at the mouth on a topic you clearly know next to nothing about. It seems to me that most of your posts in this thread have been similar over-the-top accusations, paranoia, sour grapes and pretzel logic.

Now that I see that these are just 'illustrations', I realize I can discount most of what you say, and I no longer have to think of you as a nutjob.
And who may you be?
Old 19th December 2009
  #512
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
When you are gigging on a stage and the drummer is 9 ft behind you, you have:
8.276ms delay = 397.265 samples (at 48k)
Do you start crying because of the "Latency" (or post a thread to the bassist)
heh
Old 19th December 2009
  #513
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey MTC View Post
Well, I'm totally specualting but the first one is kind of easy, but with a twist.
On the surface, there's no ADC in LE or M-Powered simply because it would cannibalize their high end HD stuff. It's the same reason why their plethora of amazing automation tricks are also excluded from LE or M-Powered, yet no one seems to ever comment on those.
thumbsup
Old 19th December 2009
  #514
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I have left Pro Tools, keeping a couple cheap systems around for session open & export.
dude, perhaps you should change your home page... you know, the one that prominently features an open pro tools session...
Old 19th December 2009
  #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapideye View Post
dude, perhaps you should change your home page... you know, the one that prominently features an open pro tools session...
heh
Old 19th December 2009
  #516
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Thanks. I took delivery of the Euphonix yesterday and will have new photos shortly.
Old 19th December 2009
  #517
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PT has had it's day...... The tide of change washes ever closer
Digital technology moves on like any technology PT was a for runner many moons ago , top dog ,the kittens nipples ,but it's not exclusive , it was conceived when native was a joke, they came up with dedicated dsp cards which gave you power a computer could only dream of !! But i think HD3 is the last we will see of this kind of technology, the native chip is more than capable of coping with the day to day needs of the average musical situation , so they need to change the game or loose there grip of the high end market this is more than obvious (surly !!)
personally ........ i'm glad i didn't invest my money in a expensive pt rig that delivers me nothing more than what a modern computer can give at a fraction of the price
Old 19th December 2009
  #518
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Call me crazy, but i'm just not seeing any major reason to switch from PTHD to any other DAW platform.
I've tried a few, Other than a few different cool features here & there, you loose just as much as you gain.

If people want more than LE has to offer, upgrade, what are you going on about? If music is your life and passion (or primary source of income)..... PONY UP AND GET BUSY!...... its like $9995 for a HD3 system now with hardware! + you can use all your native stuff on a 8 Core mac and NEVER run out of power. Thats a killer system!
or
Buy a different companies interface & get Logic, Live, DP, Mixbus, StudioOne, Record, Etc......... the world's your oyster!!! Lots of choices to suit any budget & political affiliation!

I don't see any crippling, just a person that bought some hardware without doing their homework and wanting a company to support every whim of their desire.
Notice how products have spec sheets & websites that explain their capabilities on them before you buy a product?
Personally, i even call the company and talk to the Pre-Sales guys to get more info. Digidesign Product Information Phone# 800-333-2137 (as posted on the Digi Site and almost every site).
If Digi wants to offer levels of their products, whats the problem?

Sorry, if Avid wants to keep on the marketplace, they also need to make money to pay developers so there can be constant support like they have delivered over the years.
You don't become a NASDAQ traded company with investors making stupid business decisions. I'd place my bet that they come up with the next gen of systems that changes the game.

So what if they may limit the i/o on some other interfaces, i don't see Apogee or Radar or UA, etc writing drivers for other companies either. (and don't play the M-Audio is a Avid Co. card, who cares)...... they can do whatever they want with their company.
Maybe there is a technical reason why........ call and ask.... maybe not, it's irrelevant.

Avid is a business, not a not for profit charity.
Old 20th December 2009
  #519
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gussyg2007's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
its like $9995 for a HD3 system now with hardware!
There you go!! the price has plummeted, it's just not the don it used to be if you climb out of your micro PT world you will see that music is being made on a plethora of systems , the monopoly is coming to an end !!! I think composing on PT is like trying to paint your hallway through a letter box !! DEfend your expensive investment , i would if i had spent all that money on a system that will be soon outdated , will be interesting to see what digi will come up with next , that guitar thing(digi rack) was a joke
Old 20th December 2009
  #520
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
Call me crazy, but i'm just not seeing any major reason to switch from PTHD to any other DAW platform.
I've tried a few, Other than a few different cool features here & there, you loose just as much as you gain.

If people want more than LE has to offer, upgrade, what are you going on about? If music is your life and passion (or primary source of income)..... PONY UP AND GET BUSY!...... its like $9995 for a HD3 system now with hardware! + you can use all your native stuff on a 8 Core mac and NEVER run out of power. Thats a killer system!
or
Buy a different companies interface & get Logic, Live, DP, Mixbus, StudioOne, Record, Etc......... the world's your oyster!!! Lots of choices to suit any budget & political affiliation!

I don't see any crippling, just a person that bought some hardware without doing their homework and wanting a company to support every whim of their desire.
Notice how products have spec sheets & websites that explain their capabilities on them before you buy a product?
Personally, i even call the company and talk to the Pre-Sales guys to get more info. Digidesign Product Information Phone# 800-333-2137 (as posted on the Digi Site and almost every site).
If Digi wants to offer levels of their products, whats the problem?

Sorry, if Avid wants to keep on the marketplace, they also need to make money to pay developers so there can be constant support like they have delivered over the years.
You don't become a NASDAQ traded company with investors making stupid business decisions. I'd place my bet that they come up with the next gen of systems that changes the game.

So what if they may limit the i/o on some other interfaces, i don't see Apogee or Radar or UA, etc writing drivers for other companies either. (and don't play the M-Audio is a Avid Co. card, who cares)...... they can do whatever they want with their company.
Maybe there is a technical reason why........ call and ask.... maybe not, it's irrelevant.

Avid is a business, not a not for profit charity.
o.k I gotta chime in here as the reasoning displayed in your post borders on the ridiculous.

You act like PT LE was a free system, far from it! I run PT LE on a new Mac Pro (that's 3k) and I also need a dongle in the form of a Digi 002 to be able to use my UA2192 and Aurora8 converters. (another 4k or more)

ALSO, I use quite a few plug-ins as well and software instruments like the M-Tron, Minimonsta, etc That's another few thousand dineros...

The real issue isn't the software though as I'm RECORDING music so my biggest investment is in hardware preamps, compressors and EQs, etc.

All this works quite well with PT LE but I really need more I/O, that's my biggest thing right now. Now buying a HD system won't get me that unless I invest in additional gear to hook up my 2192 for example.

Personally I have ZERO need for TDM plug-ins. I have bought all the ones I need in RTAS and they work great and the perfromance with the Mac Pro (updated to Snow Leopard and PT 8.0.3 yesterday) is really happening.

So what's your problem when I and others demand ADC? Are you kidding?
Old 20th December 2009
  #521
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gussyg2007's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post

So what's your problem when I and others demand ADC? Are you kidding?
no he's not he just trying to justify his gazzion $ outlay
protools .... shmotoools
Old 20th December 2009
  #522
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PMoshay's Avatar
 

There are tons of programs that have ADC starting at $80.
You don't need PTLE if you don't like it.
Another $80 for Mixbus or something won't break the bank at this point.

I don't defend my system, I make a living with it. It's made me plenty of money.
If somebody comes out with another system I feel is better for me, I'll buy it and recoup all the money.

I can't see anywhere where Digidesign promised ADC for PTLE?
Doe anyone have a link?

Also,
You bought a system, Hopefully you used it (and maybe made money)....... and it still works (i hope). So whats the issue? You act like you have to throw it out to change to something new.
Maybe it would be better to lease your gear so you can keep updating to new system every year or so.
People act like their systems are melting when they see something new come out.

Sell your TDM plug in's if you don't use them.
Now you need more i/o...... ok, that's like having triplets and needing a bigger car and blaming it on GM.
Digi has ALWAYS said that you need their hardware attached to use PT with the exception of that 8 track version freebie they had years ago...... this is nothing new.

You can use many non-Digi interfaces with HD, you just need the digi card for them..... so? Maybe Apogee should just include it to be nice.
Old 20th December 2009
  #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
I can't see anywhere where Digidesign promised ADC for PTLE?
Doe anyone have a link?
YouTube - AES 08 Techbreakfast interviews Scott Church of Digidesign

7:20 Of course they fired him/he quit...


(Blame the programmers as usual fuuck)
Old 20th December 2009
  #524
Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000 View Post
i've personally got a bunch of excellent plugs with latencies like that. psp vintage warmer 2, t-racks pultec + fairchild emulations, and pretty much any linear phase eq.
T-racks pultec and fairchild don't have huge latencies at all. 4 samples I think. I compensate with timeadjuster if using in parallel, don't bother if it's not a multi-miked source. The linear phase EQ, whilst significant, isn't anything like the 3000 samples you mention in the rest of your post.

PSP vintagewarmer causes problems with delay compensation even in HD for some reason (RTAS only). I wouldn't be surprised if it did in other hosts as well.
Old 20th December 2009
  #525
Gear Addict
 
dub3000's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
T-racks pultec and fairchild don't have huge latencies at all. 4 samples I think. I compensate with timeadjuster if using in parallel, don't bother if it's not a multi-miked source. The linear phase EQ, whilst significant, isn't anything like the 3000 samples you mention in the rest of your post.

PSP vintagewarmer causes problems with delay compensation even in HD for some reason (RTAS only). I wouldn't be surprised if it did in other hosts as well.
oops, i just checked and you're right on the pultec and fairchild. sorry about that.

still: floorfish (132 samples), gsnap (442 samples), vintage warmer (639), SIR (~9000), spitfish (661) are all excellent track plugins with high latencies. the lin phase eq has ~20000 samples of delay!
Old 20th December 2009
  #526
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zacheus83's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
YouTube - AES 08 Techbreakfast interviews Scott Church of Digidesign

7:20 Of course they fired him/he quit...


(Blame the programmers as usual fuuck)
hilarious
Old 20th December 2009
  #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zacheus83 View Post
hilarious
Well I understand he was shortly thereafter taken off management of PT and given a succession of somewhat irrelevant sounding roles, which may have led him to quit. He ended up at UA of all places, apparently working on their next big thing which may be announced as soon as NAMM.

Maybe UA will put i/o on the UAD cards, making them like an SSL MX4, but hopefully done right. Or perhaps something like the MH ULN-8, with their preamps, converters, and UAD plugins all in an interface or console. Or maybe they will go even bigger than that, do their own DAW or something, or merge with Reaper or something. (?)

Whatever they do, I hope it gives Avid conniption fits.
Old 20th December 2009
  #528
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andersmv's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
Whatever they do, I hope it gives Avid conniption fits.
haha! If UA came out with their own DAW I would seriously consider dumping ProTools.

Old 20th December 2009
  #529
Lives for gear
Now a ULN 8 integrated into pro tools - that would be something!
Old 28th December 2009
  #530
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ORyan87's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andersmv View Post
haha! If UA came out with their own DAW I would seriously consider dumping ProTools.

Your not serious......All they need to do kill the software title like LE & HD and just name it Pro tools.....have no limitations on the software. People are still gonna buy their Dongle/Hardware regard less. Just give people the option software wise atleast.
Old 9th January 2010
  #531
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blackfinder's Avatar
 

if i well remember a PT HD system can only compensate latency up to 4096 samples...please tell me if it's still right :-)

for today modern plugins 4096 it's in my opinion a FAKE latency compensation...it's enough to open up a linear phase EQ to say bye bye to timing !


i used a PT|HD rig time ago with focusrite liquid mix and after a secon istance of plugin timing got ****ed... liquid convolution has thousands of samples of latency for each istance.
Old 9th January 2010
  #532
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sscannon's Avatar
 

I just got an email from Digidesign, with the renewed upgrade offer. The selling point was:

"Make the move and get:
*Superior sound quality *Unrivaled, unwavering performance *Near-zero latency, automatic delay compensation, and more"

So, stability, better sound, round trip latency and ADC. And more. Starting at $5000. I got all that with Sonar for a fraction of that. All the tracks I can eat, track folders, mute tool, customize my keyboard with PT shortcuts, uses any hardware, VST support, open multiple sessions at once for drag and drop, etc. I know, PC, but it rocks. The last mac I bought was Kenny's G4 about 4 or 5 years ago (thanks, Kenny)! OSX? Who cares? Not my clients. Logic? Hated it. FCP? Hated it. Vegas? Sound Forge? Acid Pro? CD Architect? Sonar? Love'em!

I would buy a new native PT system if it allowed me to chain interfaces (I track and mix through my console and I have had no (zero) negative response about the sound of my work in LE with stock 002R converters and an ADA8000, as people listen to the song, not the converters), and if ADC was included for those rare times when I mix in the box in PTLE and want to use hogs like Maxim. I really don't know why I would need proprietary cards for any reason, Digi, UAD, or otherwise. My outboard gear makes a much larger impact on my sound than any new compressor plugin would give me.

I just got the Nomad Analog Trackbox (only because it was $15), and it sounds great without any cards at all, if I need another channel strip. PTLE came with 1176 emulations, LA-2A, synths, effects, eq's, etc. The only other plugins I buy are things that I can't get with hardware or stock plugins, like VocAlign, Melodyne, and Drumagog.

Other than that, 64 tracks is more than enough for me, and the editing is fine. RTAS plugins work just fine for me too. At this point, if I want to spread the mix out over 48 console channels, I just import the tracks into Sonar, and get to mixing in 'High Definition' with my HD192 converters.

I really would need more convincing than that to spend another $5-10,000 for those features. But that's just me.

I laughed my butt off when the ProFire came out at 32 channel of i/o, and Digi let a version out that used all of'em. Then they scrambled and put the i/o limitation back in! So 32 i/o for everyone (unless you choose Digi software). Too funny. Did that intentional crippling lead to more HD sales? Will it lead to me buying a new HD system? I doubt it.

I have stated that Digi could double their LE sales by allowing folks to chain the interfaces, but after so many years, it doesn't matter anymore. Too many awesome options have appeared. My 2c.
Old 10th January 2010
  #533
Here for the gear
 

What they need to do is go hybrid/native and accept OpenCL in their LE and HD business, while introducing something price-compettitive for the midrange. That way, people would get a s**tload of more power for plugins, VI's and whatnots from the same machines they already have. The same way SSL did with Duende. You want more channels of EQ/comp/whatever? No problem, pay $xxx and there you go, you can use your CPU power for that as well. I'm just using this as a business model (use additional resource you already have). And they would have something to ride the wave of innovation for quite some time to come since nobody else is doing it as far as DAWs are concerned.

That way, nobody would be harmed, and users from both "parts of the business" would benefit without buying any additional hardware.

If they don't do it, I'm pretty sure that Apple will, with both Logic and FCP.

Second thing they could really do is to give the market some accel card for PT that works for both LE and HD, while unlocking more channels etc. for LE part of the market. That would also sound reasonable.
Old 10th January 2010
  #534
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The MPCist's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vEddY View Post
I'm pretty sure that Apple will, with both Logic and FCP.

Second thing they could really do is to give the market some accel card for PT that works for both LE and HD, while unlocking more channels etc. for LE part of the market. That would also sound reasonable.
With Digi's ex-prez at Apple, this is probably one of the things he's gonna get Apple to do. Ah, exciting times for computer music technology coming right up!heh
Old 10th January 2010
  #535
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As far as I've seen, what Digidesign won't do is orphan older projects by not being able to save to a format that older systems can open or being able to open decade-old PT sessions using the current version. I don't think you can say that for most of their competition.

For pros, any single recording project is worth more monetarily than any DAW system. The difference in price between LE and HD is actually pretty trivial compared to what the actual cost of switching platforms would be in extra time and labor. Nothing has come along that's enough better for most of us to consider it worth the hassle.

To me, comparing Apple to Avid is a lot like comparing Nikon to Rolliflex and whining about the Rolliflex not having automatic focus. Neither one is an 8x10 view camera.
Old 10th January 2010
  #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vEddY View Post
Second thing they could really do is to give the market some accel card for PT that works for both LE and HD, while unlocking more channels etc. for LE part of the market. That would also sound reasonable.
To have a card that could be used for both audio and video would IMHO make more sense.

The ability to unlock channels usually means that some channels have been locked (for commercial, not technical reasons), and that's the kind of thing even sworn PT-fans have not been so happy with re. PTLE, so I'm not so sure if locking of channels would be a smart move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The MPCist View Post
With Digi's ex-prez at Apple, this is probably one of the things he's gonna get Apple to do.
This would make more sense a few years years ago, and with Apple articles like this (old) one Apple - Pro - Techniques - Go Native! - it seems that maybe Apple isn't interested in selling DSP cards at all (that article is most likely around 3-4 years old).

But then again - 12-core and 16-core Macs aren't out yet, and maybe there still is a market for addon DSP cards. If it is, I guess these card would be better off if they were based on the same chips that are used in the computer itself (if technically possible).
Old 10th January 2010
  #537
Gear Maniac
 

Hi guys,

I'm a newbie to this thread, forgive me if I missed sth b4 my reply.

Simply straight to the point, the next Digi (or avid whatever you call it..) moves, I guess would be release a DSP front end ( or interface ) in LE fashion that capable to run few Rtas plugs with 0 larency, like what they did in eleven rack . The max I/O would be 8, however, just 1 or 2 (or 4 max ) would allowed to record with the 0 latency DSP tracking... it would be a replacement for the 003 stuff.

what you Guys think about that?

To me, if so, my cash will be ready.. Lol
Old 10th January 2010
  #538
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topperf's Avatar
 

One do get the feeling that Eleven Rack, was somewhat a vanguard.
Old 10th January 2010
  #539
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The MPCist View Post
With Digi's ex-prez at Apple, this is probably one of the things he's gonna get Apple to do. Ah, exciting times for computer music technology coming right up!heh
I agree. Completely.

I had a huge discussion "inside my head" two and a half years ago when I started building my own studio. The usual one - go with PT or not. When I did some basic calculations - it turned out that if I went PTHD (which I really wanted as it is "standard"), I would have zero cash left for outboard and software I need. I took my time, did some research, asked more then a few people that were more "informed" then me and went with RME. Two Fireface 800's and Octamic. In these two and a half years I had a chance to use almost everything from digi's world - PT M-Powered on M-Audio ProjectMix with a friend, and everything from the HD1-HD3 world (with 96 I/O, 192I/O) etc. And I can't, for the life of me, get myself to say that 96/192 I/O have better sound then Apogee, Fireface, Orpheus or a couple of other interfaces. So that's the thing number one - sound quality-wise, PT isn't ahead anymore. It used to be, but it isn't today. Number of effects, tracks? It's still more performance-to-money efficent to buy additional computer and use Logic node to chain it then to buy additional PT DSP cards.

As far as DSP and plugins are concerned (everything from UAD through native effects, Powercore and VST synths) - this way I really have more choices and I prefer it that way. And for the price difference I invested a ****load of money in other things - mic PRE's, synths, headphone amps, monitors, microphones etc etc.

$$-wise, I really believe this was a better deal. And the fact is - today, it's even more of a better deal. I wouldn't mind owning a PTHD rig but I can do everything I need to do with Logic and all of the other stuff I have.

I think that digi lost sense of reality a couple of years ago, and that doesn't have anything to do with the world crysis or anything else. They fell asleep while milking their successful products without contemplating "what will we do in the future". With such a huge gap between their "product lines" (from M-Powered to PTHD - just an example), the fact that they slowly lost a lot of their advantages with time and the fact that you have to be pretty blind not to notice the fact that computers and VGA's are becoming twice as fast every 18 months, they should've known better. It's not "too late", but the clock is ticking and I really hope that they'll show something awesome at NAMM and in the upcoming months. Otherwise... I feel it's gonna be epic downfall.
Old 10th January 2010
  #540
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
To have a card that could be used for both audio and video would IMHO make more sense.
Awesome idea. But it would be easier to make a RTAS-to-OpenCL wrapper (talking about PT now and using it as an example) and have the computer hardware do it all by itself. It's powerful enough and getting even more so. No other DAW supports this and this would REALLY be a major move (usable on both Windows and Mac). And don't even get me started on the "lack of real multicore support" discussion because... even now, years after multicore CPU's were introduced, the vast majority of applications is still single-threaded. Absurd.
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