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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 19th December 2009
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinAiken View Post
Avid's not getting one more cent from me until ADC comes to PT... and maybe more than that; every day I use Logic PT becomes less and less important to me..

THAT's what the CEO's of AVID need to think about; also, I've had a few musician friends just getting into recording come to me and ask them what DAW they should get; I didn't have any of them get PT. Avid lost 3 sales there!
FYI- PTHD has had ADC for quite a while now, and most RTAS stuff has little issues as well.... if you have not invested in a pro system that has all that you want yet, you probably are never gonna do anything more than make excuses for not doing it like thousands of other people posting here.
but then again, it seems like you are happy with Logic, so why are you still obsessing with Protools posts?
You are acting like you hold the key to Avid's future because you mentioned to some of your friends that you like Logic......... I'm sure that the guys at Avid will be ok without our help, they did create Protools without gearslutz people's Forum input and i don't see any pro studios or pro's i know dumping their PT systems for the next fad.

Believe it or not, there are many companies & people that can make great products without doing an internet poll or listening to every chat room comment for direction.
Old 19th December 2009
  #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
Many plugins, without bothering to you, have latencies in the 3000 sample range. That's about 15ms.

If you are only worried about tracks being 15ms out of sync in the case of multitracked drums, I'm concerned for your sense of timing. I have had clients detect such timing errors in rough mixes on just the vocal.
so let the pissing match begin...........

1. What plugin's are you using with 3000 sample delays across your tracks? & what are you repairing?

2. I can look at the little window at the bottom of the fader and see the exact delay time if PT is not compensating for all of it....... which version of Protools did you last try?

3. Many of my clients as well as myself can hear it all, sometimes we feel it is fine, sometimes we don't ......... we fix what we choose to ....... its just music.

If you like your DAW, whats your point?
Old 19th December 2009
  #483
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If people abandon the idea that there is an "industry standard DAW" (and you can claim that only for shared multi-engineer facilities, once you leave that realm things get much more random) and the whole associated BS about "you need Pro Tools to be considered professional" (visible in the spittle of the Sweetwater salesdroids), then I don't think anyone's going to care about Avid/Digidesign/Pro Tools anymore and they will leave you to rest in peace.

It's funny how the HD owner is so snooty and condescending and then plays shocked...shocked I tell you!...when people complain that their patron company are a bunch of swine.
Old 19th December 2009
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyMac View Post
I hope pro tools goes DSD

seriously - that would get my attention and cash VERY quickly
yeah... not sure about how that would work:

* dsd is delta encoded, which means the sound at any point in time is determined by the whole stream leading up to that point. i'm guessing that makes any kind of non-linear processing/editing a gigantic pain in the ass - that certainly seems to be the case from what i've read.
* it's probably not audible, but dsd streams have HUGE amounts of noise in the 20khz-25khz band as a result of the noise shaping that's part of the encoding process (like, probably enough to really annoy dogs). this is gonna be a HUGE problem if you're doing anything involving pitch shifting and would probably upset compressors and stuff like that unless you introduced more filters... which kinda defeats the purpose of dsd.

if you really wanted overkill in your sound quality, you'd be better off just using 192khz/24bit, i reckon.
Old 19th December 2009
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
1. What plugin's are you using with 3000 sample delays across your tracks? & what are you repairing?
i've personally got a bunch of excellent plugs with latencies like that. psp vintage warmer 2, t-racks pultec + fairchild emulations, and pretty much any linear phase eq.

i gave up on LE ages ago. i enjoyed using it, just got sick of waiting for avid to fix stuff and whining about it was more exhausting than finding another platform that just worked (this isn't a comment on HD btw).

if all the LE whiners switched platforms i guarantee you avid would get their act together in that regard very quickly, btw.
Old 19th December 2009
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
ADC is really only a problem when you have multitracked drums & such when you want phase coherence. If your plug in is making something late, nudge the track till it sounds good dummy! Its not rocket science!
see, that's just silly and i've never understood why people are cool to do that.

...mainly because: what if i'm using some processing on a snare track, and then i decide i want to chuck a different compressor on it, and the latency for that plugin is different? what if i want to audition a couple of different compressors? i have to keep nudging? or what if i have a plugin with a HQ mode that changes the latency? i have to nudge that every time i tweak it?
Old 19th December 2009
  #487
yes you do. bummer no?
Old 19th December 2009
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneoconnor View Post
yes you do. bummer no?
well, i did. now i don't have to.
Old 19th December 2009
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
If people abandon the idea that there is an "industry standard DAW" (and you can claim that only for shared multi-engineer facilities, once you leave that realm things get much more random) and the whole associated BS about "you need Pro Tools to be considered professional" (visible in the spittle of the Sweetwater salesdroids), then I don't think anyone's going to care about Avid/Digidesign/Pro Tools anymore and they will leave you to rest in peace.

It's funny how the HD owner is so snooty and condescending and then plays shocked...shocked I tell you!...when people complain that their patron company are a bunch of swine.
It's irrelevant which DAW any one person says is a standard - whatever gets someone results wins for that person. Hits have been created on everything from Tascam 4 tracks to Mono 1/4" Tape to Pyramix systems.
The only reason that PT seems to be a standard is because you see it everywhere, just like Autotune is now associated with all forms of tuners.

What makes you an expert on Digidesign as a company?
So you can make a blanket statement that everyone at Digidesign are swine?
Man, You're pretty jaded.

I guess youre gonna say that eveyone at Logic are saints and should win a Nobel peace prize next.

I know quite a few people that work at Digidesign as well as i've met all the guys from Logic & Apple........ i like them all!
In fact we had dinner 2x with Hall & Oates and all the heads of Logic last year, and they are all terrific people!
All the Digidesign people that i have met over the years are not only talented and passionate people, they are just GOOD PEOPLE!. And you've obviously never met Robert Miller or Bill Lackey!
Old 19th December 2009
  #490
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My problem with Avid the company is limited to just a handful of people (maybe only one?) who perpetuate the elitist policy. I have problems with all the apologists for that individual or group as well, whether they work there or not. They aren't even operating in their self interest.

I worked for a company they bought (who I enjoyed working with greatly) and could have went and worked for them too. But I don't think I could live with myself if I did. I would only work there on condition they dropped the elitism and the petty crap with UA etc.

Most of the best coding talents are very moral and politically progressive people, and that is why I'm not holding my breath for future developments from that firm. A bunch of Ayn Randian young republicans are not likely to ship great software hoping to separate the haves and have-nots. I'm frankly stunned that company is located where it is and manages to retain any of its talent. Things aren't that awful on the job market for A-levels.
Old 19th December 2009
  #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000 View Post
see, that's just silly and i've never understood why people are cool to do that.

...mainly because: what if i'm using some processing on a snare track, and then i decide i want to chuck a different compressor on it, and the latency for that plugin is different? what if i want to audition a couple of different compressors? i have to keep nudging? or what if i have a plugin with a HQ mode that changes the latency? i have to nudge that every time i tweak it?
i'd rather not ever have to look when i'm in PTLE, but so far PT is my fav DAW to track & mix in. Nudging really isn't that hard... you see the #, then you nudge by that #, not as easy as ADC, but it works for now.
Trying Mixbus .... it has great promise, but needs some work still. Wish i had time to learn them all. Spent way too much time learning that Logic isn't as good for mixing in. (thats just my take on it, no need to flame or comment)... it had some great points, but just not my cup of tea.

Hope they add ADC to LE, it would be more convenient for me when im not at my HD setup....... also i'd like Automation Trim in LE. PT8 is really dam good!
Old 19th December 2009
  #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
My problem with Avid the company is limited to just a handful of people (maybe only one?) who perpetuate the elitist policy. I have problems with all the apologists for that individual or group as well, whether they work there or not. They aren't even operating in their self interest.

I worked for a company they bought (who I enjoyed working with greatly) and could have went and worked for them too. But I don't think I could live with myself if I did. I would only work there on condition they dropped the elitism and the petty crap with UA etc.

Most of the best coding talents are very moral and politically progressive people, and that is why I'm not holding my breath for future developments from that firm. A bunch of Ayn Randian young republicans are not likely to ship great software hoping to separate the haves and have-nots. I'm frankly stunned that company is located where it is and manages to retain any of its talent. Things aren't that awful on the job market for A-levels.
You have any idea what you are talking about.
You have no clue about their position with UA, or anyone else.

Elitism? They make a product that they don't want every crappy programmer on the planet screwing up with their add-on junk ........
just like Apple does......... and i THANK THEM FOR THAT!
Old 19th December 2009
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
FYI- PTHD has had ADC for quite a while now, and most RTAS stuff has little issues as well.... if you have not invested in a pro system that has all that you want yet, you probably are never gonna do anything more than make excuses for not doing it like thousands of other people posting here.
but then again, it seems like you are happy with Logic, so why are you still obsessing with Protools posts?
You are acting like you hold the key to Avid's future because you mentioned to some of your friends that you like Logic......... I'm sure that the guys at Avid will be ok without our help, they did create Protools without gearslutz people's Forum input and i don't see any pro studios or pro's i know dumping their PT systems for the next fad.

Believe it or not, there are many companies & people that can make great products without doing an internet poll or listening to every chat room comment for direction.

I totally agree!! I have been using Protools since the beginning.. Back in the ProDeck Pro Edit days.. This stuff now is really amazing and I am grateful for the DAWs these days! I paid like 10k for 4 tracks of audio in 1992.. or something like that.. There was NO LE or Logic really.. only DP which came after plain Performer.. I have used all of them since the late 80's and the stuff works if you let it. It's like a toolbox.. You use what works.. Quit complaining whomever that was. Have fun! G
Old 19th December 2009
  #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
You have any idea what you are talking about.
You have no clue about their position with UA, or anyone else.
Enlighten us then. Spill the beans. Why are they doing what they are doing? I have a vague idea I may know quite a bit more about all this than you do...

As evidenced by totally random non-sequiturs like this:

Quote:
Elitism? They make a product that they don't want every crappy programmer on the planet screwing up with their add-on junk ........
just like Apple does......... and i THANK THEM FOR THAT!
UA has "crappy programmers" I see, making "junk." So does SSL, tc electronic, Schwa/Stillwell, Audio Damage, and all the other developers who either were refused RTAS licenses or refused to kowtow to those "miserable bitches at Avid" (their words, not mine).

When you find yourself in quicksand, quit digging.
Old 19th December 2009
  #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
UA has "crappy programmers" I see, making "junk." So does SSL, tc electronic, Schwa/Stillwell, Audio Damage, and all the other developers who either were refused RTAS licenses or refused to kowtow to those "miserable bitches at Avid" (their words, not mine).

When you find yourself in quicksand, quit digging.
Funny how you take what i said, then paste in some company names to make it as i implied these people.
You paste a headline and not the story.............. so whats the whole story then?
Digidesign is just a big bad bully right? They denied these poor righteous companies out of spite with no reason........ so you can confirm that all these plug in denials had no real reason to be denied - correct?

Mr. Insider, Tell us the story...... we might as well hear one side of it while the quicksand gets soft.heh
Old 19th December 2009
  #496
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I think Pro Audio needs an independent press outlet, something that isn't beholden to the manufacturers' ad revenue. Open any of the applicable rags and there are huge Avid ads...there is no way they are going to do investigative reporting to worm out the backstory on the fight between Digi and UA. I don't know the particulars, but it has been at least obliquely confirmed to me from both sides that is the issue, and all the users suffer for it. I blame Avid 100%.

It is Avid's total ease at making the majority of its customers suffer for such pettiness that is elitist and unacceptable to me.

It is in fact illegal, a violation of the Sherman act, for a company to leverage a monopoly in one area (e.g. DAW software) toward creating a monopoly in another area (e.g. DAW hardware). Thus the gov't agrees with me (from hard experience in their case). The irony is Avid's policies actually make the market more competitive than it would be, by turning off so many people who just want to make music.

I have left Pro Tools, keeping a couple cheap systems around for session open & export. And I'm late in doing so compared to many. We just need to finally break the "industry standard" myth and its associated snobbery and then we will have a healthy recording service industry.

An empowered and unshackled audio press could do wonders in that regard. Sunshine is the best antiseptic.
Old 19th December 2009
  #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I think Pro Audio needs an independent press outlet, something that isn't beholden to the manufacturers' ad revenue. Open any of the applicable rags and there are huge Avid ads...there is no way they are going to do investigative reporting to worm out the backstory on the fight between Digi and UA. I don't know the particulars, but it has been at least obliquely confirmed to me from both sides that is the issue, and all the users suffer for it. I blame Avid 100%.

It is Avid's total ease at making the majority of its customers suffer for such pettiness that is elitist and unacceptable to me.

It is in fact illegal, a violation of the Sherman act, for a company to leverage a monopoly in one area (e.g. DAW software) toward creating a monopoly in another area (e.g. DAW hardware). Thus the gov't agrees with me (from hard experience in their case). The irony is Avid's policies actually make the market more competitive than it would be, by turning off so many people who just want to make music.
What? The internet isn't a open & independent enough press arena?
Will Digidesign close down the internet if a story leaks out?
I still didn't get the story?

UA totally ditched support for TDM when they could have still supported the people that bought their TDM plug-in's....... (like me). They had every opportunity to update their plugs but did not, Digi did not make them abandon it, they chose to and move on to their own platform for their own corporate interest. (Evil!)

I don't know anyone suffering who is using Protools?
I knew 100% that when i bought my system that i had to use their sanctioned hardware & software, and they have delivered timely updates and bug fixes as well, even when i updated my Apple operating system.
Monopoly????????? HUH???? They make software & hardware that works together???? like Apple, Microsoft, GM, Phillips, Sony, LG, Nokia, Motorola, etc, etc, etc.............
Digidesign is so far from a monopoly, its SCARY!..............

Who are they "Turning Off" who wanna make music?????
Old 19th December 2009
  #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
It is Avid's total ease at making the majority of its customers suffer for such pettiness that is elitist and unacceptable to me.

It is in fact illegal, a violation of the Sherman act, for a company to leverage a monopoly in one area (e.g. DAW software) toward creating a monopoly in another area (e.g. DAW hardware).
I did not realize there was a case for Avid being a monopoly under the legal definition of the term in the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

Or has every example of hardball and sharp elbows in the business world suddenly become 'coercive monopoly'?


Quote:
Thus the gov't agrees with me (from hard experience in their case).
Wait, the government agrees with you? The Justice Department is prosecuting Avid under the Sherman Act? This is huge news! How did I not hear of this? Do have a link?


Quote:
The irony is Avid's policies actually make the market more competitive than it would be, by turning off so many people who just want to make music.
Well, which is it? Are they making the market more competitive or are they a monopoly?

Are you unable to purchase a copy of Logic because they bought out Apple and closed it down? Did they also send their secret police goons to smash up the Steinberg headquarters? Did they threaten Guitar Center with cutting them off to force them to stop selling Ableton?

Anyway, since you hate them so much, you should be glad they are continuing their policies - which are (according to you) alienating the "majority" of their customers. Between that and you telling your 3 friends not to buy Pro Tools, they should be out of business in no time at all, which is what you want, so why are you complaining?
Old 19th December 2009
  #499
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I am illustrating a principle rather than levying a specific accusation, as any fair reading of my post would deduce. However I do think if DAWs were more relevant to the economy Avid's lawyers would be cautioning them quite strongly in light of the histories of Microsoft, IBM, etc.

Anyway the HD snobs want it both ways...Pro Tools the "necessary" "industry standard" that "every pro studio has" but oh, no, it's definitely not a monopoly!!!!!!!!

I'm glad how things are turning out, the only thing slowing the removal of Pro Tools from its "standard" mantle is the apparent inability of the competition to put together a whole product that replaces it. I'm not impressed with their performance either (why didn't the UAD-2 have i/o built in for low-latency DSP?) but at least they aren't evil to their customers.

And UA's response to Digi's trying to completely destroy the UAD project in its infancy, back at a time when the other DAWs were much farther behind pro tools then they are now (they have now past it in most areas), was completely justified. They supported those TDM plugins for years without explaining to their customers what assholes Digi were. They took the high road out of it, as has all of Avid's other victims but me it seems.

I see no reason to let Avid continue to feel comfortable when they made me feel so uncomfortable struggling with their crippleware for years. fuuck

(And before you ask, no, there is nothing else I have against Avid/Digi/etc. other than my experience with them as a consumer of their products that I'm unhappy about.)
Old 19th December 2009
  #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I am illustrating a principle rather than levying a specific accusation, as any fair reading of my post would deduce. However I do think if DAWs were more relevant to the economy Avid's lawyers would be cautioning them quite strongly in light of the histories of Microsoft, IBM, etc.

Anyway the HD snobs want it both ways...Pro Tools the "necessary" "industry standard" that "every pro studio has" but oh, no, it's definitely not a monopoly!!!!!!!!

I'm glad how things are turning out, the only thing slowing the removal of Pro Tools from its "standard" mantle is the apparent inability of the competition to put together a whole product that replaces it. I'm not impressed with their performance either (why didn't the UAD-2 have i/o built in for low-latency DSP?) but at least they aren't evil to their customers.

And UA's response to Digi's trying to completely destroy the UAD project in its infancy, back at a time when the other DAWs were much farther behind pro tools then they are now (they have now past it in most areas), was completely justified. They supported those TDM plugins for years without explaining to their customers what assholes Digi were. They took the high road out of it, as has all of Avid's other victims but me it seems.

I see no reason to let Avid continue to feel comfortable when they made me feel so uncomfortable struggling with their crippleware for years. fuuck

(And before you ask, no, there is nothing else I have against Avid/Digi/etc. other than my experience with them as a consumer of their products that I'm unhappy about.)
You bash Digi/Avid yet Ive dealt for years with Steinberg and Apple and have felt without a doubt that Digi has been the most helpful and receptive. If I post a problem or idea on the DUC, within in hour there's a response. Nothing evil about it. It's crazy how different peoples percpective is.
Old 19th December 2009
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
What? The internet isn't a open & independent enough press arena?
Will Digidesign close down the internet if a story leaks out?
I still didn't get the story?

UA totally ditched support for TDM when they could have still supported the people that bought their TDM plug-in's....... (like me). They had every opportunity to update their plugs but did not, Digi did not make them abandon it, they chose to and move on to their own platform for their own corporate interest. (Evil!)

I don't know anyone suffering who is using Protools?
I knew 100% that when i bought my system that i had to use their sanctioned hardware & software, and they have delivered timely updates and bug fixes as well, even when i updated my Apple operating system.
Monopoly????????? HUH???? They make software & hardware that works together???? like Apple, Microsoft, GM, Phillips, Sony, LG, Nokia, Motorola, etc, etc, etc.............
Digidesign is so far from a monopoly, its SCARY!..............

Who are they "Turning Off" who wanna make music?????
The lone voice of reason in the middle of angry linch mob.
Old 19th December 2009
  #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DP40oz View Post
You bash Digi/Avid yet Ive dealt for years with Steinberg and Apple and have felt without a doubt that Digi has been the most helpful and receptive. If I post a problem or idea on the DUC, within in hour there's a response. Nothing evil about it. It's crazy how different peoples percpective is.
Ok the second voice of reason the middle of angry lynch mob.
Old 19th December 2009
  #503
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It is not entertaining that we have literally daily pointless digi bashing threads now.
People speculate, and try to sell their speculations as facts.
Yes, many don't code to rtas. But hey, many still do. Why? Are they captured by the darkside????

I've been working daw's for a long time, but the only company who gave me real service, support and care is digidesign. They have products which is working for me, that's it. They support is properly.
I really don't care if daily there is a new daw from the ground up, with half baked features try to probe every hobbyist that if they buy that daw they will be instant pros.

Even in the heavy digibashing, noone could point only one thing that will make studio/engineer switch her/his workflow. Some nitty-gritty featurelike something is really not enough to throw out years of expertise with a daw. Of course imho.
Old 19th December 2009
  #504
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Lack of ADC isn't a detail. Lack of ADC is what they have used to try to destroy a whole company that wouldn't obey them and wanted to expand its market.

Can't you see what a sick world they have created for you?

They send thugs every day to bust your kneecaps. But they also provide nice nurses to treat your wounds.

And you want to focus on the nurses?

There are good terms for such a situation...e.g. "tyranny" "extortion" and "learned helplessness."

There is a good solution too: "I don't need this **** anymore. I'm leaving."
Old 19th December 2009
  #505
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Some of this is bordering on dellusional paranoia!
Old 19th December 2009
  #506
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to be honest im more concerned with lack of buses and an audio engine that doesnt work. i can live without ADC, all it takes is a digi time adjuster.

anyway after years of reading about it im finally checking out reaper... looks like its bye bye digi, although i will mourn the loss of mcdsp
Old 19th December 2009
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey MTC View Post
Some of this is bordering on dellusional paranoia!
Not at all. You aren't paranoid if they really are out to get you.

For instance, take Avid's own product, the M-Audio Profire 2626. In Logic, you get 26i/o @44.1KHz. And you get [email protected]

In Pro Tools M-powered, Avid gives you how many i/o? You get only 18 @ 44.1KHz. Which they do mention in the fine print. But even though the 2626 supports SMUX, you only get 10i/o @ 96KHz! This crippling they didn't even officially acknowledge for a year.

Avid is so ****ed up a company, their own DAW doesn't work as well with their own hardware as that hardware works with 3rd party DAWs. This is an example of the pettiness the luxury of a monopoly affords you: divisions of the same company can get in turf battles that end up punishing the customer. (In that case, refusing to let the 2626 outperform the 003. Which it does, quite dramatically, in quality and all the ways digi couldn't cripple, such as cue mix latency on par with HD.)

And it's the fact they let the customer bear the cost of their pettiness which makes me write. The companies and divisions they target aren't as hurt by it as their customers are. That's the evil of it.

There are two questions they have never agreed to answer on the record: why no ADC in LE/MP, and why no RTAS license for UAD. Am I paranoid by giving you the obvious answer to those questions? Those questions are relevant. There is a reason. It's not as if the requests for both of them never managed to reach an executive desk.

What is your answer to those two questions. Hmm?
Old 19th December 2009
  #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
There are two questions they have never agreed to answer on the record: why no ADC in LE/MP, and why no RTAS license for UAD. Am I paranoid by giving you the obvious answer to those questions? Those questions are relevant. There is a reason. It's not as if the requests for both of them never managed to reach an executive desk.

What is your answer to those two questions. Hmm?
Well, I'm totally specualting but the first one is kind of easy, but with a twist.
On the surface, there's no ADC in LE or M-Powered simply because it would cannibalize their high end HD stuff. It's the same reason why their plethora of amazing automation tricks are also excluded from LE or M-Powered, yet no one seems to ever comment on those.

The decision to leave features out of their lower end products is completely theirs and is a commercial decision. But there's no monopoly and they're not doing it to be "arrogant." It's their attempt to structure their products to maximize their profits. Whether we agree with it or not is irrelevant and whether it has maximized their profits is something we can only speculate on.

The twist I was referring to was this: I think most people think that because they've already got ADC for HD going, it's a no brainer to just implement the same thing for LE or M-Powered. My understanding is that this is absolutely not the case - largely to do with the differences between the systems - fixed vs floating, etc. Digi have commented time and time again that ADC for LE is on their radar. I've even been questioned by Digi staff about what features I'd like to see in the future, and the question was preceded with "apart for ADC for LE" before I even opened my mouth.

As to the no RTAS for UA thing .... this is news to me. My understanding is in line with what Peter Moshay said: Many of us had and loved UA's TDM offerrings and were pretty bummed when UA decided not to rev their TDM plugs for Intel. That put out a lot of people, but my understanding was that UA chose to direct their efforts into developing for their own hardware exclusively - the exact thing Avid/Digi do.

I had not heard that UA tried to put their plugs out as RTAS - arguably something that might take away from UA hardware sales, given how highly nearly all their plugins are regarded.
Old 19th December 2009
  #509
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No and no and no but I'm too tired of this to explain ad nauseum.
Old 19th December 2009
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I am illustrating a principle rather than levying a specific accusation, as any fair reading of my post would deduce.
Oh, my fair reading of your post was that you were foaming at the mouth on a topic you clearly know next to nothing about. It seems to me that most of your posts in this thread have been similar over-the-top accusations, paranoia, sour grapes and pretzel logic.

Now that I see that these are just 'illustrations', I realize I can discount most of what you say, and I no longer have to think of you as a nutjob.
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