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Digidesign Pro Tools Next Move Audio Interfaces
Old 25th November 2009
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown View Post
Not sure what you mean. All 3 of those vendors sell their own interfaces. You're saying they should make their own DAW?
No he wants a single-vendor solution hardware and software like Apple offers with its Mac and Mac OS. So there's a single point of contact, support, responsibility, and hopefully, coherent development and upgrade cycles. It's a legitimate request, and I'll note the other DAW vendors have and have had their own hardware/software combos for years, including MOTU, Emagic, Steinberg, etc. Pro Tools and a few other high-end options (Pyramix?) are the only ones who _require_ you to use their hardware though.

I will note that most interfaces these days do ship with their own mandatory little DAW in the form of a DSP mixer program that may even include its own plugins etc. What is needed most from the Pro Tools competitors is a new standard like VST and ASIO were ten years ago, but this time for integrating interface-hosted DSP and foldback into the myriad other DAWs. By controlling both, Avid has an advantage.

(Oh sorry to answer for you Mr. Moshay )
Old 25th November 2009
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
This place sounds like the LUG (Logic Users Group) most days. 30,000 post a day from bedrooms around the world. 30 posts a day from pro studios. I could get more and more material just from this thread alone. A couple hundred or a couple more grands is nothing for your main DAW that you'll spend tens of thousands of hours virtually existing and working in, making a living.

Price is SO insignificant when you compare it to your time. That's why I wish Avid would RAISE their prices if that's what it takes to avoid fiascos like Structure and the disastrous MBox2 crashing Macs with Core Audio on Intel Macs all day, every day, for OVER TWO YEARS and implement ADC, Freeze, fix RTAS and fix the bugs and get PT back on track and then keep on making it greater and greater and greater.

Don't even get me started on that "Macs are totally overpriced" or "Digi PT TDM is totally overpriced." When we are working we live and work inside of our virtual computer realm…literally living there for tens of thousands of hours. Do I want to have my head inside of a sh*t hole" for tens of thousands of hours? No, I use OSX on Macs, thank you. OSX is the the best product of any kind that I have ever bought in my entire life. And I use PTHD. They are the best for me and my studio. They're essential, their untouchable, they're fun, they look great, and the work great and I like living in there for 8-14 hours a day and so do the many of people that work in my studio. There are no other options and I'm not even looking for any others. If I got rid of my $35,000 worth of Pro Tools and TDM plugins in my studio, my business would 99% dry up within hours. Finished. You'll see relaxo in "Gearslutz Secondhand gear classifieds."

Yes, I am all for $5000 or $10,000 native-only DAW software w/o hardware if it is perfect and brilliant at every level.
I like your post and I agree with you to a degree, but the current economy has everyone watching their wallet. It doesn't look like that will be changing anytime soon. I really want to take advantage of the digi exchange program but my brain is telling me to wait and see what they announce in 2010. $10k is no drop in the hat for me. Yes I will make it back, but I will be eatin fukin ramen for a while. I'm glad you are doin great though!

Back to Sonar...
Old 25th November 2009
  #363
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DontLetMeDrown's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
No he wants a single-vendor solution hardware and software like Apple offers with its Mac and Mac OS. So there's a single point of contact, support, responsibility, and hopefully, coherent development and upgrade cycles. It's a legitimate request, and I'll note the other DAW vendors have and have had their own hardware/software combos for years, including MOTU, Emagic, Steinberg, etc. Pro Tools and a few other high-end options (Pyramix?) are the only ones who _require_ you to use their hardware though.

I will note that most interfaces these days do ship with their own mandatory little DAW in the form of a DSP mixer program that may even include its own plugins etc. What is needed most from the Pro Tools competitors is a new standard like VST and ASIO were ten years ago, but this time for integrating interface-hosted DSP and foldback into the myriad other DAWs. By controlling both, Avid has an advantage.

(Oh sorry to answer for you Mr. Moshay )
Wowie! That would be pretty sweet if I could insert plug-ins into the Lynx mixer using AES16e DSP.

Great idea!thumbsup
Old 25th November 2009
  #364
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Actually, there has been a solution all along right under our noses......

Welcome To Fairlight US - Provider of Professional Audio Production Solutions
Problem is too much is never enough........
Old 25th November 2009
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown View Post
Wowie! That would be pretty sweet if I could insert plug-ins into the Lynx mixer using AES16e DSP.

Great idea!thumbsup
The idea would be the opposite...abolish the separate Lynx mixer and have your DAW of choice use Lynx's low-latency routing (along with any low-latency plugins that are available) directly. So when you put your DAW into input monitor or record mode, it would use the interface latency, and control the settings on the interface's mixer, rather than running the audio through the slow hardware buffer and the DAW.

This is how PTHD works, but in that case they put the entire audio engine out on the cards. That made sense at that time, it however has become a millstone around their neck as native DAWs have now left it in the dust, and I predict Avid will adopt a hybrid/dynamic solution like the one I am describing imminently.
Old 25th November 2009
  #366
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PMoshay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
it would use the interface latency, and control the settings on the interface's mixer, rather than running the audio through the slow hardware buffer and the DAW.
Isn't a interface & hardware the same thing?
Nothing in a computer happens without latency...... recording live multitrack 24+ tracks is a good acid test. If you use no plug in's and less routing, i've seen Native work.
I would not trust my live recordings to a Native DAW system, no way!
Give me a hardware solution.
Old 25th November 2009
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
Isn't a interface & hardware the same thing?
Nothing in a computer happens without latency...... recording live multitrack 24+ tracks is a good acid test. If you use no plug in's and less routing, i've seen Native work.
I would not trust my live recordings to a Native DAW system, no way!
Give me a hardware solution.
I agree, but my tracking hardware solution is analog, not digital.
Old 25th November 2009
  #368
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
Isn't a interface & hardware the same thing?
Nothing in a computer happens without latency...... recording live multitrack 24+ tracks is a good acid test. If you use no plug in's and less routing, i've seen Native work.
I would not trust my live recordings to a Native DAW system, no way!
Give me a hardware solution.
What was the last time you tried 24-track recording on a native system, which computer/OS/century was it and which DAW did you use?
Old 25th November 2009
  #369
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PMoshay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
What was the last time you tried 24-track recording on a native system, which computer/OS/century was it and which DAW did you use?
4 months ago, Mac OSX 10.5 / Logic 7.
Dropped out of record 2x for unexplained reason on a show.
Lucky i was only using / trying it out as a backup system.
I assume you want to argue the point that i have no idea what i am doing.

I've even had PTHD systems connected with PT venue consoles on the road for years. They dropped out of record 1 in 4 shows +/- for unexplained reasons.

If you live in NY i'd love to see your system in action and also be interested in hiring you/your system for our show. PM or email me with your info.
Old 25th November 2009
  #370
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

A couple years ago I had a Nuendo system drop one track out of record for a second or so and then start recording again attaching the new audio to right where the dropout had been in the same .wav file. We had to split the file and totally guess where sync was for the back half of that track. I've run into missing samples with logic audio where the audio file is zero for one sample. Luckily that problem was inaudible but stuff like this doesn't exactly make me feel confident when I've never had any audio file corruption in 18 years of using Pro Tools.

Yes, occasionally a session file got corrupted and it occasionally dropped out of record altogether but there was never a case of thinking I had recorded something that I hadn't.
Old 25th November 2009
  #371
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
4 months ago, Mac OSX 10.5 / Logic 7.
Dropped out of record 2x for unexplained reason on a show.
On what Mac?

Logic 7 (released in 2004) on Leopard (released in 2007)... I didn't even know that this was supported. You're brave, using such an old Logic version with an OS made long time after it's release. :-)

Four months ago, even Logic 8 was almost two years old, why not try a DAW and OS that's sort of designed to match each other? Anyway, I'm not in NY (or in US), but we can always discuss stability etc. in various Logic/OS X combos, but that would be better off in another thread. Let me know if you want to start one.

I' don't think I've had Logic drop out of record in any version, and have used it live on several occasions, including performing edits live on stage - but again; we're hijcking the thread now. If I would have been in your neighborhood, I'd gladly have had a cup of tea with you, PMoshay, and explained why you IMO rather should check out current versions of Logic and OSX. For the records, Björk, Rolling Stones and Joss Stone use Logic live, and Stone/Stones record concerts with it - but I don't know how many tracks they use or record live.



Ableton Live is not TDM-based, and being used Live a lot, and known to be very stable in such situations - including live-tweaking of parameters... Aren't people even using PT LE live - or is that a no-no?
Old 25th November 2009
  #372
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PMoshay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
On what Mac?

Logic 7 (released in 2004) on Leopard (released in 2007)... I didn't even know that this was supported. You're brave, using such an old Logic version with an OS made long time after it's release. :-)
Sorry, Logic Pro 8.02 is the version i have and used, not 7 (just my not remembering which version it was).
It was the latest everything when i tried it and set it all up days before making sure all the drivers were the latest as well as i had clean new FW800 drives.
I tested the system the day before and all seemed to work ok.
Even my assistant double checked our setup and was watching the recorder the whole time when it dropped for no reason.

I was very excited to try to use it as a backup system at first (i record our shows using Alesis HD24XR's), but when it dropped out of record 2x with Logic 8, and 1x using Live 7.. i was not very confident about computer's being my main recorder.
When a $50,000 a day video production is going on, i'm not gonna be the guy that is trying to figure out why something crashed and i lost a take.

We have been using Live v6 &v7 with Hall & Oates on the road for years with almost no issues on old G4 laptops for sequence playback (not recording).
After spending weeks trying out almost every sequencing/DAW system at the time, Live was the fastest & most stable program to use in our live show. Opening the largest song we had only took 9 sec.

Love to speak with you about your setup. The only info people get is from manuals & AD's about how it all should work......... on paper its all great, but as we all know when the rubber hits the road..... **** happens.
Old 25th November 2009
  #373
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NativeAudio- your screen name and post history all seem to indicate you have an agenda: bashing ProTools and favoring Logic. Isn't this becoming tiresome?

Sorry to disappoint you, but 99% of Professional recording studios and mixers are still using Pro Tools-- making records everyday and loving it.

Sorry if an HD rig is still out of your reach financially, but PLEASE give the Digi bashing a rest.
Old 25th November 2009
  #374
Registered User
 

He should change his name to Digibasher.
Old 25th November 2009
  #375
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

"30,000 post a day from bedrooms around the world. 30 posts a day from pro studios"

Because the bedrooms have become the pro studios of the record charts

TH
Old 25th November 2009
  #376
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopamine View Post
NativeAudio- your screen name and post history all seem to indicate you have an agenda: bashing ProTools and favoring Logic.
'Native' in my user name doesn't say anything about being pro or con Digi/Avid, since they also produce native DAWs. But don't worry, Dopamine - I won't post more in this thread.

Quote:
Sorry to disappoint you, but 99% of Professional recording studios and mixers are still using Pro Tools-- making records everyday and loving it.
This is often mentioned lately, and often in contexts (like this one) where I don't see that it has any relevance... ;-)

Quote:
Sorry if an HD rig is still out of your reach financially, but PLEASE give the Digi bashing a rest.
I have owned pretty much all Digidesign DSP cards and interfaces that has been manufactured since 1991, been a TDM-user up to/including PTHD, and think they are doing some great stuff. But - with all due respect - if PT users don't want others to chime in with comments, it would be much better if the 'false assumption' rate in these discussions would decrease dramatically. For some reason, the last month has been a lot about Digi users (of which many haven't checked Logic for years) bashing Logic, followed up by comments by Logic users. When it comes to 'bashing' Pro Tools, I personally don't even know enough about PT's current state to bash it.

If posting about differences between DAWs, or about what certain DAWs can't do, you would have seen that I have been 'bashing' Logic a lot more than Pro Tools, posted a lot of suggestions for improvement in Logic etc, started several polls about which of the shortcomings in Logic (both regarding the score part and in general) that people want to see addressed first and so on. Based on that, and what seems to be someone's definition of bashing, I'm probably a "Logic-basher" more than anything else!

Logic is mentioned a lot in PT threads these days (including in this one), and vice versa - but I prefer posting in an environment where people don't assume that you can't afford PT if you don't use it or that you work in a bedroom.

Some PT users currently seem keen on commenting other DAWs based on experiences they had years ago, without knowing much about what happened with these DAWs during the last (few, but important) years. I don't really know much about what happened with the PT development since I sold my HD rig, but I probably have a silly attachment to the Digi brand since I used TDM for all these years. Even if I'm interested in Avid's DAW development, I'm personally mainly interested in the hardware part of it, which AFAIR is what I have commented upon in this thread.

Digi is the only company with a real "DAE", and could do some interesting, if not revolutionary stuff in the future if they go native (which various Digi employees at the DUC indicate that they may be planning as their next move). DAE both controls the native (OS X) plugins and the remotely controlled DSP chips (in the external cards) using the same UI, and is unique in the sense that unlike the CoreAudio world, it doesn't rely on 3rd part mixers for (some) routing. In native apps, one needs to do certain things in a 3rd part mixer when working in direct monitoring mode. If PT goes "high end native", I guess they will continue this tradition; if the make interfaces with built-in DSP, I doubt that they'll do what other native developers have done (these solutions normally imply that you need to deal with two mixers for certain stuff).

Logic was brought into this thread in the first paragraph in the first post - but/and the negativistic posts about PT here haven't been posted by me. However, I get your point... :-) If I post something critical about the DAW I happen to use, it's seen as a comment, but if I post ideas re. how another DAW platform could improve or develop, it's easily seen as bashing. I respect that.

Last edited by nativeaudio; 26th November 2009 at 10:39 AM.. Reason: Added something about DAE vs 3rd part CoreAudio mixers
Old 25th November 2009
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Digi is the only company with a real "DAE"
Digi is the only company with a real Digidesign Audio Engine? Apple is the only company with a real AAE (Apple Audio Engine)? Not exactly sure of the point there.
Old 25th November 2009
  #378
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PMoshay's Avatar
 

Trying to tell Digidesign what to do is like somebody telling me i should be an astronaut.

It's real easy to type out your fantasy in a forum, not quite as easy to make it a reality.
--------------------------------------------------------

For now, i'll just wait for them to finish up in the kitchen with what they're cookin.
If it looks appetizing, everyone will jump on the love bandwagon......... if not, everyone will jump on the "they shoulda done......." bandwagon.
And there will always be someone that uses the phrase "Deal Breaker" that think that they are holding the key to a company's fate because it does not have a feature they want.


If history has taught me one thing...... i've bought just about everything they have made, and that speaks volumes.
I'm all for native stuff, it just has not really delivered to my satisfaction yet and i can't charge back for my beta testing........ and i have music to make everyday.

But i did just buy Harrison Mixbus..... that looks like a very great development for us all, and the feedback from people looks promising. I'm gonna import some tracks and see for myself. $79 is a fair deal to get people in.
Old 25th November 2009
  #379
Lives for gear
 

I'm gonna stick with the software I have now for the next decade just to see if we're just paying for fancy looking images on the screen or better production capabilities.
Old 1st December 2009
  #380
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

This is kind of a new move for waves but check out the first line on the discription.

Waves for Venue D-Show Digidesign Consoles for Live Sound | WavesLive

Well they cant say it any clearer than this...

"With Digidesign Venue Series consoles and D-Show software, external processing racks are a thing of the past."

If they succeed in telling the live guys "you dont need harware at all", then they will surely be after the studios next.
Old 1st December 2009
  #381
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suda Badri View Post
This is kind of a new move for waves but check out the first line on the discription.

Waves for Venue D-Show Digidesign Consoles for Live Sound | WavesLive

Well they cant say it any clearer than this...

"With Digidesign Venue Series consoles and D-Show software, external processing racks are a thing of the past."

If they succeed in telling the live guys "you dont need harware at all", then they will surely be after the studios next.
That's because they are still selling them a CONSOLE.

Hardware company.

TH
Old 1st December 2009
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi View Post
We've been pontificating these issues for a long time around these parts!

Here's some historical reflection if you're bored...

Will PC's triumph in the end? What's to become of Proo Tools?
The key-sentence in that old thread for me is this:

Quote:
Digi will be around for ages, cause everyone knows it and everyone has truckloads of (very expensive) files saved in pts format sitting on their HD.
Switching DAWs is not something you can do very often in a pro facility.
Besides the point that I have to be able to work on old sessions years after they were created, what about for example my Digilink-cabling?
The computers are in a machine-rack outside of the control rooms. How am I supposed to get my new interfaces connected? New cabling under the floor? Nightmare! One has to do serious planning for such changes in your infrastructure and I simply have no time for that.
We have 2 HD-systems here running 10+ hours daily. I'm very used to PT and don't want to look into other DAWs. I'm happy to go home and spend some time with my family, not nerdying around in the evening, thank you.

Just some thoughts from a pro-perspective.
Old 2nd December 2009
  #383
PDC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suda Badri View Post
This is kind of a new move for waves but check out the first line on the discription.

Waves for Venue D-Show Digidesign Consoles for Live Sound | WavesLive

Well they cant say it any clearer than this...

"With Digidesign Venue Series consoles and D-Show software, external processing racks are a thing of the past."

If they succeed in telling the live guys "you dont need harware at all", then they will surely be after the studios next.
The context is live sound. Digi's position has not changed. Digi's marketing has not changed. Maybe you are new to it. The concept is to have a complete system and no need to go outside of it. They are not talking about having a host based vs. native system. Study what the system is, you will get it.
Old 2nd December 2009
  #384
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

Yeah the workflow is sick.... I am new to it... I think this will be great for a studio workflow too though, If I could work in the studio as fast as some live guys Ive seen Id get a lot more done haha...
Old 2nd December 2009
  #385
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotstuff View Post
For us LE users what we really need and want is ADC.
This alone should be the biggest priority for Digidesign on the next release, I think that this alone will determine whether the loyal users will stay or move on.
Hotstuff
I have finally made the jump with a UAD2 Quad. These plugs rock! They are so good I could use only these and be completely happy. I have been considering a different DAW with ADC. It would be nice to mix with out all the workarounds. Mellowmuse has helped but it still can be a pain. With all the DAW's offering unlimited tracks and ADC it is kinda silly that Avid has not implemented these features yet. The argument that it would interfere with HD sales is over. Not everyone has the money or is interested in making that kind of investment.
Old 2nd December 2009
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator View Post
Switching DAWs is not something you can do very often in a pro facility.
Besides the point that I have to be able to work on old sessions years after they were created, what about for example my Digilink-cabling?
The computers are in a machine-rack outside of the control rooms. How am I supposed to get my new interfaces connected? New cabling under the floor? Nightmare! One has to do serious planning for such changes in your infrastructure and I simply have no time for that.
We have 2 HD-systems here running 10+ hours daily. I'm very used to PT and don't want to look into other DAWs. I'm happy to go home and spend some time with my family, not nerdying around in the evening, thank you.

Just some thoughts from a pro-perspective.
There are a few thousand sites like yours. Avid made very good money off them 5 years ago but now they only contribute marginal revenue for software upgrades that barely pay for the maintenance of the niche HD engine.

If you don't play much role on their P&L, they are going to write you off as a marketing expense. Which HD sites largely are at this point.

The question is where is new revenue possible, and it is in the $2000-$5000 range. Right now all they have there is the 003 Console Complete.

I've owned one of those for over a year. It's no longer even plugged in. I'm using Logic driving M-Audio 2626's and it's much more workable and at higher quality than the 003. Currently, I also don't appear on their P&L, and there are a lot more like me out there.

To open a PT session and export all you need is an mbox micro.
Old 2nd December 2009
  #387
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

I think many people (wrongly) write down avid/digidesign. But seriously I really don't understand why.
What on earth any competitors brought into this industry regarding to daw's? Well, to be really honest, nothing.
All promises some new nitty-gritty feature, which for the most part does not work as advertised, but from a professional standpoint, where things come in, deadline, goes out, nobody gave us some new.
So seriously, why is it so many speculators think that digi does not know what to do?
I think they know it. And hopefully they will do it.

Oh, and I love that when digi's hardware gets bashed. Even by people who's golden reference was made with pt, with digi hardware...heh
TD
Old 2nd December 2009
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
There are a few thousand sites like yours. Avid made very good money off them 5 years ago but now they only contribute marginal revenue for software upgrades that barely pay for the maintenance of the niche HD engine.

If you don't play much role on their P&L, they are going to write you off as a marketing expense. Which HD sites largely are at this point.

The question is where is new revenue possible, and it is in the $2000-$5000 range. Right now all they have there is the 003 Console Complete.

I've owned one of those for over a year. It's no longer even plugged in. I'm using Logic driving M-Audio 2626's and it's much more workable and at higher quality than the 003. Currently, I also don't appear on their P&L, and there are a lot more like me out there.

To open a PT session and export all you need is an mbox micro.
There are many more sites like mine than you think. For example almost all professional postpro-studios around the world.
Almost all 'highend' music-studios around the world.

Also, don't forget that most the bedroom/homestudio-guys use PT because the highend-facilities do. It has a lot to do with corporate image.
Digi certainly is going to to quite a lot NOT to lose the highend-clients.

And about the Mbox, it's not about being able to just open a session. I have to be able to work from that session instantly. With all plugs, routing to my apogees & SSL, ADC, maybe even things like machine control, surround etc.
Converting and bugfixing sessions is sometimes a nono. Sometimes it's more important NOT to lose a job because of compatibility issues than shelling out some 10,000$ for a DAW all 5 years (tax-deductible of course).

I know, that doesn't apply to the low/mid-market, but I just want to show that for a certain clientel there are more important issues than the latest feature and hottest VIs in the new release of whatever.
Old 2nd December 2009
  #389
Gear Nut
 

Anyone running the Sadie 6 from Prism?
Old 2nd December 2009
  #390
Here for the gear
 
kerry p.'s Avatar
 

last night i was hypothesizing with this super-smart guy whose been making records since ive been in diapers about what could the next new thing from digi... He's always ahead of the game, here some ideas we were tossing around.....

higher sample rates, 320, just kinda for that "we went there" factor, suping up the core processor, maybe slimming the rack design..
But one of the most interesting things he brought up was them bringing in more of a networking system, where you can remotely connect systems, without latency, through an internet connection, :::be able to listen to a live take going on, say "i like that", render it, edit it, all while it is updating the audio file on the other end. He was getting real deep with the possiblities, likening it to isdn of the future....
thinking the system itself would be able to work with the older HD i/o's, so not to cut out all the existing users, limiting the usable rate to whatever i/o is your lowest....
He also metioned something about sadie, but he kinda lost me on that!

Whatever it is, i feel that they would be striving to really seperate themselves, rather than being like something that is already out there..I'm really curious as to what the next thing will be from the digi folks, im sure it will really be beyond what we expect!
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