The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
UnNatural Perfection (and the end of rock)
Old 14th November 2009
  #61
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I don't think anyone has to do anything, as witnessed by the decline, the TV ethos hand is playing out and it is total failure. By your statements you know about the template that the television "pro's" who migrated to the music biz have lead you to believe, that doesn't make it true, doesn't make it work, and obviously, it hasn't panned out to be a workable sustainable balance. I've met them too, vapid people.
Maybe just because you can do something doesn't mean it will preserve a sustainable workable balance, like a nuclear weapon.
What I meant by spin reality.......
Old 14th November 2009
  #62
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
What I meant by spin reality.......
I'm guessing you lived through this too...
Old 14th November 2009
  #63
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I'm guessing you lived through this too...
Depends on how you define it, some for sure. However it seems just the music biz version of what we're all living through on all angles......there is a change in the world in the air, and preceding it there is a mist. A mist of BS........hopefully after that it will clear up into beautiful sunlight.
Old 14th November 2009
  #64
Registered User
 

It seems that every conversation regarding the music biz always trends toward the generalized: THEY, THEM, THOSE. (And it always seems to be implied that the genre is either rock or pop.)

As a result, the conversations tend to get really hypothetical and 'conjectionary,' and quasi-fictional (and if you've been following, in this case: science fictional). Perhaps if we talked more about specifics and (gasp!) real world experience, we might actually be able to gain some real perspective here. This is a very popular forum, with some very well respected and experienced members:

When will we start acting like what we do matters, instead of passing everything along to some external 'THEY?'

If there are so many people making / recording music on this forum- why are there so few examples posted and linked to? With all due respect, I'm curious- are we (you) doing anything out there?

We really could shift the focus of this whole forum to listening to the music that we've recorded / mixed / mastered, then discussing it. Think about it- no more passing blame to the outside world, and hopefully a little less talk and a little more action.

Regards....
Old 14th November 2009
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
It was a theory with a working model of trapped photons, but no way to send them anywhere [...]
That sounds a little more like it.

Old 14th November 2009
  #66
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

I hope so. Probably so. I think about it a little and I usually put my money where my mouth is, even if it costs me, to maintain my internal integrity, to be fully who I am and who I want to be, and I retired my protools rig today, permenantly. I have a board I like, I have all the outboard I would use to do the same thing as ITB, I have a recorder, I hardly use any of it and when I do, I end up mixing ITB longer than I would like to get the not as good as effect of what I do on the board anyway. If somebody can't sing a part, I know how to coach them in 20 minutes I'll have it on tape and they'll be able to sing that part and others they couldn't every single time. Win/win. If somebody can't play a part, I can coach them there to the same ends. They get a new skill, whether he shoulda had it in the first place or not, I get a track hat sounds better feel wise than a tweaked turd, and nothing sounds like robots did it. Preserving the feel, doesn't mean i let a lotta mistakes go on other people's stuff, I don't, I'm a hatchett man and fast, we get it right in three takes or the coach steps in, lovingly brutal, brutally and lovingly in service to all who would interact with what I do. I LOVE what I do! I mean really LOVE it and I would do it for free, IF I didn't require food, shelter, retirement, college for my kids, medicine, utilities, transpo, a pine box some day, some left over for my sweet wife who saves baby's lives everyday.
But, we're out and pantydancin robots are in, sheesh.
I'll step back to hobby status and let this die hard. All you need to kill robots is a glass of water to pour on them, water = mercy, mercy kills the TV ethos, let it play out and it will die on it's own quickly. Try to stop it and the misery will drag on, but, that doesn't mean we have to feed the bastards.
Old 14th November 2009
  #67
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by russchapman View Post
It seems that every conversation regarding the music biz always trends toward the generalized: THEY, THEM, THOSE. (And it always seems to be implied that the genre is either rock or pop.)
To be fair, that is a malady that transcends and pervades all industries, it must be "trained out" of the individual.
Quote:
As a result, the conversations tend to get really hypothetical and 'conjectionary,' and quasi-fictional (and if you've been following, in this case: science fictional)
WHO?
Quote:
. Perhaps if we talked more about specifics and (gasp!) real world experience, we might actually be able to gain some real perspective here. This is a very popular forum, with some very well respected and experienced members:

When will we start acting like what we do matters, instead of passing everything along to some external 'THEY?'

If there are so many people making / recording music on this forum- why are there so few examples posted and linked to? With all due respect, I'm curious- are we (you) doing anything out there?

We really could shift the focus of this whole forum to listening to the music that we've recorded / mixed / mastered, then discussing it. Think about it- no more passing blame to the outside world, and hopefully a little less talk and a little more action.
Regards....
I agree, that's why I retired the protools rig today, it makes editing easier, but, I can do that without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
That sounds a little more like it.

I did say the only half of it was done.
It's a hoot, we are all time travellers, your machine is your skin, and you are traveling into the future and turning it into the past while you are only alive in the very instant of the present, your past becomes a story and many use this story to explain who they are, but, I am not encumbered so easily. Mine tells who I've been but not who I will be which is what I am becoming and designing as we all are, but, I design on purpose, most take on the template of the automatically handed out default world of limits, some accidentally design within confines of what they think is possible based on the past. What we are is only what we are being in the instant of the present and I take responsibility for mine.
Old 14th November 2009
  #68
Lives for gear
 
SANDS's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
never fear. This is a very healthy underground rock scene in stoner and garage.... all true to form. rock is a long way from dead - it just may not be mainstream anymore...... and who wants to be mainstream.No money!!

Dead on, There are tons of wonderful new bands, pages like bandcamp even myspace etc.., There are tons, you have to search for them, since there are so many pages like this you have everybody and their brother making music, so yes there is a ton of crap, but there are gems that would have never scene the light of day if it wasn't for the internets. Don't be lazy and wait for some label to shove crap down your throat, for the first time people can listen to music all over the world within seconds, it's a great thing.
Old 14th November 2009
  #69
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
In thirty five years I've met plenty of people. People you'll never have the chance to meet because they are dead.
Solid point.
Old 14th November 2009
  #70
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
Solid point.
Maybe so, but, it made me laugh.
Old 14th November 2009
  #71
I think that Wake is completely correct, though I'm clearly very sympathetic torwards the argument being made here. I agree that the loundness war or the auto-tune war was not started by the consumer. But it's not hated by the consumer either, at least not the consumers for whom most of that music is targeted. They clearly like it. It's the sound of their music. I mean how many folks from the 50s jazz/classical/pop tradition thought that Led Zepplin or Jimi Hendrix was sonic bliss? Probably not a lot of them.

Did that stop you from listening to them and thinking it sounded great? Probably not. But the great wheel of life as turned and now you are your parents and looking over the top of your bifocals and complaining just like they did.

I say, get over it. If you don't like that kind of music, then don't make, and accept the consequences. That's why I don't want to make music for a living, because I don't want to accept the consequences. One day maybe the kind of music I like to make will be back in style. If that happens before I'm dead maybe that'll be good for me. I should certainly have had plenty of time to practice before it does.

But I'm not going to sit around and act like kids are stupid because they like what's popular in their generation. Did you, as a kid, call up Led Zepplin and say, Damn it, play louder and use more reverb and distortion and make it harsher sounding than my parent's music? No, that happened because the people making music wanted to experiment in that direction, and you liked it. Obviously the loudness wars has substantially less artistically driven roots (or at least it originally did), but I think it's probably a stylistic choice in and of itself now. And I don't think it's fair to say that some of the things done in your day weren't driven by marketing either.

I mean there are whole sub-genres of rock and dance music that are fundamental dependent on a massive pumping effect on the mix, and they like that. It's no more anti-musical than slicing your speaker cone so that it distorts on purpose (why in the world would someone want to do that?)
Old 14th November 2009
  #72
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

Ahhhhh. it is a conundrum.
We strive for perfection but are often disappointed with our results whether we feel we reach the intended perfection or feel we fell short.

Like many, I prefer humanity and emotional content in music over technical perfection. After working in this profession for a lifetime I realize that not everybody feels this way. c'est la vie

I do live by a couple of little "mantras" though. ( And yes, I do have to put my personal "mantras" on the back shelf for some clients.....hey, gotta feed my kids!)


Absolute perfection is absolutely boring.

Embrace the idiosyncrasy and retain what makes the artist/music unique.

Listen and emphasize the positive, listening only for the negative is a soul sucker.

Grids, we don't need no stinkin' grids! (OK, obviously many forms of modern music are built on grids. I just don't have to deal with that kind of music)

What would joelpatterson do?




All that said, I gotta run 'cause I got some clients that are expecting absolute perfection from me today!
Old 14th November 2009
  #73
Gear Nut
 
Wake's Avatar
 

Good discussion regardless of where you fall on the spectrum...

and @memphis, no offense if none implied. We're adults here.

and about my video, it's not pandering if I like having panty dancer's in my videos!
Old 14th November 2009
  #74
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wake View Post
Good discussion regardless of where you fall on the spectrum...

and @memphis, no offense if none implied. We're adults here.

and about my video, it's not pandering if I like having panty dancer's in my videos!
Ha ha, yes it is. I know sex sells, but, it's still playing on easy sentiments.
Old 14th November 2009
  #75
I think more panty dancers would be a good thing for music personally. And I don't say that for selfish reasons at all. Really, I don't.
Old 14th November 2009
  #76
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
I think that Wake is completely correct, though I'm clearly very sympathetic torwards the argument being made here. I agree that the loundness war or the auto-tune war was not started by the consumer. But it's not hated by the consumer either, at least not the consumers for whom most of that music is targeted. They clearly like it. It's the sound of their music. I mean how many folks from the 50s jazz/classical/pop tradition thought that Led Zepplin or Jimi Hendrix was sonic bliss? Probably not a lot of them.
I agree that it hits the mark of "not overtly offensive" but that's crap target to aim gor and the money? What money?
Of course it's not hated, it's also not loved, it's "just liked" and just not "not liked". That's shit in my book.
Quote:
Did that stop you from listening to them and thinking it sounded great? Probably not. But the great wheel of life as turned and now you are your parents and looking over the top of your bifocals and complaining just like they did.
Yeah yeah yeah, and I wonder about that. You wanna see where the rubber hits the road, start with the claims made by the TV crowd, give them some of this robot music and then stick on some older stuff with energy and SEE what he reaction is. The TV crowd LOSES BIG.
Quote:
I say, get over it. If you don't like that kind of music, then don't make, and accept the consequences. That's why I don't want to make music for a living, because I don't want to accept the consequences. One day maybe the kind of music I like to make will be back in style. If that happens before I'm dead maybe that'll be good for me. I should certainly have had plenty of time to practice before it does.
I'm still making that kind of music. I get YOUNG clients that come in and say "please don't use autotune or beat detective on me". So I'm not so sure they like it better, real world experience tells me otherwise.
Quote:
But I'm not going to sit around and act like kids are stupid because they like what's popular in their generation. Did you, as a kid, call up Led Zepplin and say, Damn it, play louder and use more reverb and distortion and make it harsher sounding than my parent's music? No, that happened because the people making music wanted to experiment in that direction, and you liked it. Obviously the loudness wars has substantially less artistically driven roots (or at least it originally did), but I think it's probably a stylistic choice in and of itself now. And I don't think it's fair to say that some of the things done in your day weren't driven by marketing either.
Yeah, but they were different, they actually had to know how to play, they weren't as big a frauds for the most part and the ones who were had a rude awakening and had to stage a comeback when they learned how, which they had to do, because there wasn't autotune or beat detective to fake it back then. There were tracks, but, most of those frauds were exposed BY THE ENGINEERS.
Quote:
I mean there are whole sub-genres of rock and dance music that are fundamental dependent on a massive pumping effect on the mix, and they like that. It's no more anti-musical than slicing your speaker cone so that it distorts on purpose (why in the world would someone want to do that?)
I really do hear you on this and I'm not as against the genre as I am anti-fraud.
What are the odds that a talentless hack can go into a studio and record for a major label, get all the bad notes fixed, tour, and make money?
It isn't what I'm up to, but, it should be extremely rare instead of extremely common.
Old 14th November 2009
  #77
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
I think more panty dancers would be a good thing for music personally. And I don't say that for selfish reasons at all. Really, I don't.
Old 14th November 2009
  #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I agree that it hits the mark of "not overtly offensive" but that's crap target to aim gor and the money? What money?
Of course it's not hated, it's also not loved, it's "just liked" and just not "not liked". That's shit in my book.
I think you are wrong there. It IS loved. I've said it a number of times, go to Youtube. Go poking around pages about that music, or in unrelated pages where that music is used as a backdrop. Clearly that's THEIR music and they like it. People constantly ask, what's the song, I love that, or comment on how much they love this or that song being used as backdrop music behind the video.

I do a lot of random associative Youtube video watching, and I see this all the time. These kids have no idea what Autotune is, or what Beat Detective is or what drum replacement is. It's just the sound of their generation, the same way that insipid, emotionless synth stuff was the sound of the 80's generation (and they really love that stuff, though I think most of it is fairly vomitorious.)
Old 14th November 2009
  #79
Gear Addict
 
Jay Dee's Avatar
 

I want to know where people get the idea that Steely Dan are "perfect"... LOL! I like the Dan's earlier albums but later albums like 'Aja' I would say are fussy moreso than perfectionist. Fussing over details doesn't excite me too much. They were more fun when they just let 'er rip... kick out the jams baaabeee.
Old 14th November 2009
  #80
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
I think you are wrong there. It IS loved. I've said it a number of times, go to Youtube. Go poking around pages about that music, or in unrelated pages where that music is used as a backdrop. Clearly that's THEIR music and they like it. People constantly ask, what's the song, I love that, or comment on how much they love this or that song being used as backdrop music behind the video.

I do a lot of random associative Youtube video watching, and I see this all the time. These kids have no idea what Autotune is, or what Beat Detective is or what drum replacement is. It's just the sound of their generation, the same way that insipid, emotionless synth stuff was the sound of the 80's generation (and they really love that stuff, though I think most of it is fairly vomitorious.)
But are they getting payed? or just played?
Old 14th November 2009
  #81
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
I think you are wrong there. It IS loved. I've said it a number of times, go to Youtube. Go poking around pages about that music, or in unrelated pages where that music is used as a backdrop. Clearly that's THEIR music and they like it. People constantly ask, what's the song, I love that, or comment on how much they love this or that song being used as backdrop music behind the video.

I do a lot of random associative Youtube video watching, and I see this all the time. These kids have no idea what Autotune is, or what Beat Detective is or what drum replacement is. It's just the sound of their generation, the same way that insipid, emotionless synth stuff was the sound of the 80's generation (and they really love that stuff, though I think most of it is fairly vomitorious.)
All these threads are the same, aren't they? heh

I agree with you, people love/like this music. There are people on this board who love/like it and want to make music and are making music in these ways!

And I absolutely can see how the music of the 60s, for example, must have seemed to the older generation...horrible!! Loud tuneless noise! Kids twisting in their bikinis on the beach like sex crazed idiots!! Compared to Sinatra and big band jazz, just the lowest of the low.

A couple of differences though...there were some visionaries like Lennon/McCartney and Brian Wilson, for example...people who lifted the music up to respectable levels. Who are the visionaries now? Green Day? Taylor Swift? Will.I.Am?

There also seems to be a lack of invention...all these things, drum machines, loops, synths, even autotune, the whole thing is ancient and doesn't seem to really be going anywhere. There was quite a difference between the 60s/70s and the generation before...
Old 14th November 2009
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
But are they getting payed? or just played?
I'm not sure who you are talking about. You said they weren't loved, and I was just responding that clearly kids do love that music that gets slammed around here so much. It's quite evident if you go look at what is being said by them about it.

If you mean are the artists getting paid, well no, not for their illegal use by kids in Youtube videos. But that's a completely different argument.
Old 14th November 2009
  #83
Lives for gear
 
mexicola's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I'll have to go with Bob here, as the perfection doesn't measure in how close to a grid of squares it is, but how close to the maximum expressive potential.
I must have misunderood what he was saying. His statement read to me like overediting was a good thing. Hence why I disagreed with it.
Old 14th November 2009
  #84
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
I'm not sure who you are talking about. You said they weren't loved, and I was just responding that clearly kids do love that music that gets slammed around here so much. It's quite evident if you go look at what is being said by them about it.

If you mean are the artists getting paid, well no, not for their illegal use by kids in Youtube videos. But that's a completely different argument.
I'm saying, in the real world, if you A/B what you say they love with energetic music from the 60's and 70's and some 80's sans autotune and beat detective, they will pick the old stuff everytime, especially if you don't try to sway the outcome. There coud be another test too, how long can you listen test, where the same parameters apply.
Old 15th November 2009
  #85
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I'm saying, in the real world, if you A/B what you say they love with energetic music from the 60's and 70's and some 80's sans autotune and beat detective, they will pick the old stuff everytime, especially if you don't try to sway the outcome. There coud be another test too, how long can you listen test, where the same parameters apply.
Well, given the facts on the ground, I'd say that you would lose that bet in a large way. They have completely free access to the entire history of rock music, but they choose music of their generation. I think you are projecting your own self onto them, and they aren't you. I think that most of them wouldn't at all like 60s, 70s or 80s music, or at most would be lukearm to most of it and like some stuff, any more than you probably liked Patty Page when you were a kid.
Old 15th November 2009
  #86
Lives for gear
 
mexicola's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Well, given the facts on the ground, I'd say that you would lose that bet in a large way. They have completely free access to the entire history of rock music, but they choose music of their generation. I think you are projecting your own self onto them, and they aren't you. I think that most of them wouldn't at all like 60s, 70s or 80s music, or at most would be lukearm to most of it and like some stuff, any more than you probably liked Patty Page when you were a kid.
Well, I don't think you nor I would enjoy wearing lederhosen in public everyday, but a couple hundred years ago in german countries people did, and were very comfortable wearing them. The reason being is that's what they were conditioned to like. And nowadays we're conditioned to feel comfortable wearing t shirts and jeans. Which is why we wouldn't want to wear lederhosen in public.

Humans don't always have a pure freedom of choice. Societal and generational conditioning has a lot to do with preference.

I think memphisindie is right in regards to people who intertwine their lives with music, but I think Dean's right in regards to the general listening public.
Wine snobs prefer certain characteristics in wine, both for those of us who just want to get drunk and screw anything with alcohol will do.
Old 15th November 2009
  #87
Actually, lederhosen make me feel quite virile, so I wear them a lot.
Old 15th November 2009
  #88
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Nope, I don't like 60's music that much, I like 70's 80's and 90's better, the pop they listen to now I'd like to hear done by better talent. It doesn't bother me that they have their generation's music, what I'm saying isn't that their music sucks, just the production techniques used to create it are cheap and lame. NOTHING about it is real It's one big fraud. We have the power and the talent to do it right, but we don't. And what they create on their own is not that good for the vast majority of it. I have kids, maybe that has tainted them, but, the people I record aren't a bunch of old codgers, they're kids too and they don't like the new stuff that much either, they think they have to sound-a-like to be accepted, but, they don't like it.
I encourage them to stand out.
If they suck it won't matter, they'll just be another one, and if they don't suck it will make all the difference.
Old 15th November 2009
  #89
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mexicola View Post
Humans don't always have a pure freedom of choice. Societal and generational conditioning has a lot to do with preference.

I think memphisindie is right in regards to people who intertwine their lives with music, but I think Dean's right in regards to the general listening public.
Wine snobs prefer certain characteristics in wine, both for those of us who just want to get drunk and screw anything with alcohol will do.
Exactly, and it doesn't mean that it will work out this time. We could actually screw up beyond all repair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Actually, lederhosen make me feel quite virile, so I wear them a lot.
OW! Brain hurts from mental image.
Now I need alcohol.
Old 15th November 2009
  #90
Lives for gear
 
EddieTheRed's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
There was quite a difference between the 60s/70s and the generation before...
But is it fair to expect a complete musical revolution from every generation?

I think it's safe to say there's 'quite a difference' between music of the mid-late 80's-00's to the 60's-70's. Maybe not as big a difference, but that's just a case of diminishing returns, it's to be expected . . .

Besides, there are plenty of hugely popular forms of music that just didn't exist 30 years ago.

Rap/Hip hop. Dance/DNB/electronica. Extreme metal.

There's been plenty of music made in the past 25 years that will stand the test of time. We're just too close to it to get a clear view.
πŸ“ Reply
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
πŸ–¨οΈ Show Printable Version
βœ‰οΈ Email this Page
πŸ” Search thread
♾️ Similar Threads
πŸŽ™οΈ View mentioned gear