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UnNatural Perfection (and the end of rock)
Old 13th November 2009
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1
No... you're not thinking deep enough. Clearly, time itself is the problem... I think we're on to something here.

The ultimate time correction would clearly be to manipulate the time-space continuum to fit the music -- bing! -- no artifacts.


heh

Oh, that's good, if I can also be my own grandpa, I'm in, all the way in.
[bold added]

May be an inopportune choice of words, there... after all, grandma and all...

heh


On the time machine thing, there have been some interesting theoretical speculations and I wonder if maybe you saw mention of some of those. I'm really quite skeptical about a working time machine. You know, after the problems with the Philadelphia Experiment and all. heh [BTW, that link to an 'article' on About.com is friggin' hilarious because it demonstrates the utterly absurd thinking some of these folks engage in.]

I think there are two kinds of people who grow up on sci-fi: at one pole you have the kind who parlay that into an interest in real science, using the power of imagination to drive the method of science in order to extend what we know about the real world -- and on the other you have those whose desperation for transcendence drives a desire to believe so intense that any purposeful investigation of the object of those desires is avoided at all cost.
Old 13th November 2009
  #32
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

My life is a time machine. LOL.
Just close your eyes, you can be anywhere you've seen.

There's hardly anything that's popular today (I do love the net so I can converse with you lovely people, technology +1) that I find to be of better taste or even more interesting than things from the past, including music. Especially not furniature, fashion, architecture.

It's not a fear of the future, I think the future is fascinating to think about. But all you can do is look back, and look at the present and decide where you stand. (or the future if you're predicting something)

It's really nothing about time frames, it's about taste.

The trend is "Why would you want to live in that huge castle made of prehistoric, forgotten rock with waterfalls as walk ways and garden walls when you can live in a house made of ALL GLASS and METAL, come On!! get with the times!" LOL! Technology is everyone's hang up, their disability, the crutch. That's what the music industry reminds me of. All these window washers. ...........whatever.

And since when is looking through that thin window pane more fun than all those other strange materials glass windows used to made of? You know, that glass that you look through in those old houses or churches and the images start to bend and warble a bit, or certain area's come in and out of focus. And then ahh........, out of that 40" window, there's a 10" square of perfect clarity, with variation around it.

whoops, work calls!
Old 13th November 2009
  #33
You clearly don't need technology to make music that is too free of flaws. I think that Steely Dan is a perfect example of this. It becomes musical wall paper at some point because it's so technically correct.

I will go some other folks here and say it's mostly the professionals of the industry who are creating the situation. Do an old style mix, with mistakes, without everything automated to perfection, with some timing issues, with the vocal double not perfect, etc.., and post it in the work in progress area here. Most likely the comments about what could be improved would be those that would lead you right back to the situation that's being complained about here.

Luckily for me, I suck. So I'm naturally gifted in this area. I know from mistakes and how to put them to use in my music.
Old 13th November 2009
  #34
Gear Guru
Steely Dan is the exception. They managed to do it , IMHO, without sounding sterile.

Although the "perfection" is why they get so much animosity.
Old 13th November 2009
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
If people from the future figure out how to build the actual transport part of the machine, and determine that 2012 is the year that the zero accountability culture hit critical mass, they could conceivably, however far fetched or "nutso" it may sound, send an emissary back to destroy the earth for what it may do under such guidance.
So what happens if you destroy the planet in your past? The ultimate grandfather paradox, nothing to return to in the future...

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
On the aforementioned time machine...
Oh... don't you mean the Bogus History and Imaginary Science Channel? heh
...
Seriously, it's degenerated to a sort of tabloid-TV, National Enquirer level of pseudo-journalistic malpractice, it seems to me.
Yeah, it's been getting worse. In fact I think we're seeing a phenomena of memory at play here with the time travel story. Interesting stuff, but all pretty theoretical at this point. I would bet dollars to donuts though he's referring to Ronald Mallett, a very interesting physicist who has won awards for his work on theoretical time travel, but even he is skeptical that we could ever transport much more than light or quantum particles through time, though that could make for interesting phone calls to the past...


Back on topic, as a writer of fairly "electronic" styled music, I still try to keep all of my guitar and bass takes as one pass and I don't do a lot of gridding of drums, unless that suits what I'm going for. I'm a big believer in pushing around midi notes too if I'm programming and not snapping a midi take if I'm performing. Tape is cheap, I just spend the extra time getting it (un)right...
Interestingly I have worked with a drummer in the past who was an amazing drum programmer. He could duplicate his parts identically to what he did live and he could make the thing groove too. He was just super anal and spent a lot of time making it feel right, with the proper samples hardly anyone could tell it wasn't a live kit. I think there is a new world for people that can add feel to a grid. We're going back to the old rules just with new tools.
Old 14th November 2009
  #36
Gear Maniac
 

perfect ruins the musicality of things. Back in the day they were working towards editing the flaws and making more perfect productions. I am a new age producer and i will tell you this once you get to the point where you know what it is that you are doing i feel like you work backwards putting more effort into putting the minor flaws and humanization backin into the music itself.
Old 14th November 2009
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
No... you're not thinking deep enough. Clearly, time itself is the problem......
But-- tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime is on my side. Yes, it is.
Old 14th November 2009
  #38
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
On the aforementioned time machine...
Oh... don't you mean the Bogus History and Imaginary Science Channel? heh
I think I remember a time when the History Channel wasn't chockablock with unfounded historical theories, silly conspiracy fantasies, and bogus documentaries... but that was a long time ago.
Maybe if I had that time machine I could go back and check... heh
Seriously, it's degenerated to a sort of tabloid-TV, National Enquirer level of pseudo-journalistic malpractice, it seems to me.
It was a theory with a working model of trapped photons, but no way to send them anywhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
[bold added]

May be an inopportune choice of words, there... after all, grandma and all...

heh
The Hurlihee boy. let him marry your grandmaw, he'll comb her hair nice and pretty like she likes it.
Quote:

On the time machine thing, there have been some interesting theoretical speculations and I wonder if maybe you saw mention of some of those. I'm really quite skeptical about a working time machine. You know, after the problems with the Philadelphia Experiment and all. heh [BTW, that link to an 'article' on About.com is friggin' hilarious because it demonstrates the utterly absurd thinking some of these folks engage in.]
It's totally absurd.
Quote:
I think there are two kinds of people who grow up on sci-fi: at one pole you have the kind who parlay that into an interest in real science, using the power of imagination to drive the method of science in order to extend what we know about the real world -- and on the other you have those whose desperation for transcendence drives a desire to believe so intense that any purposeful investigation of the object of those desires is avoided at all cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olivia_nb View Post
So what happens if you destroy the planet in your past? The ultimate grandfather paradox, nothing to return to in the future...
Exactly. Including music that sounds like a cheapo TV commercial all over compressed, too loud, annoying, demanding your attention, not because it's good, but, because it's so loud and compressed you couldn't possibly talk over it or think when you hear it. Like the people who make that kind of junk, overaggressive to cover a lack of skill, getting all the gigs and ruining them.
Quote:

Yeah, it's been getting worse. In fact I think we're seeing a phenomena of memory at play here with the time travel story. Interesting stuff, but all pretty theoretical at this point. I would bet dollars to donuts though he's referring to Ronald Mallett, a very interesting physicist who has won awards for his work on theoretical time travel, but even he is skeptical that we could ever transport much more than light or quantum particles through time, though that could make for interesting phone calls to the past...
That's the guy, it's a theory, but, really, why bother going backwards?
Quote:

Back on topic, as a writer of fairly "electronic" styled music, I still try to keep all of my guitar and bass takes as one pass and I don't do a lot of gridding of drums, unless that suits what I'm going for. I'm a big believer in pushing around midi notes too if I'm programming and not snapping a midi take if I'm performing. Tape is cheap, I just spend the extra time getting it (un)right...
Interestingly I have worked with a drummer in the past who was an amazing drum programmer. He could duplicate his parts identically to what he did live and he could make the thing groove too. He was just super anal and spent a lot of time making it feel right, with the proper samples hardly anyone could tell it wasn't a live kit. I think there is a new world for people that can add feel to a grid. We're going back to the old rules just with new tools.
swing adjust? velocity selected samples?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
But-- tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime is on my side. Yes, it is.
"I am my own grandpaw", it used to be played on Dr. Demento's show.
Old 14th November 2009
  #39
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
I think we all understand that click tracks are the problem!
Joel's right about this. It was discussed on the famous "Clicks make you slow down" thread ad nauseum so no need to go into it here. But the other thing that leads to sterility in recordings these days is the lack of people playing together at the same time. I'm starting a recording project with a friend now and our rule will be that at least two people will have to be overdubbing something at the same time whenever there's an overdub, and of course we'll be playing basic tracks live. I think one of the things we all want to hear as listeners is how the musicians are interacting with each other. Overdubbing single parts tends to reduce that vibe in the final recording in my experience.
Old 14th November 2009
  #40
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FireMoon's Avatar
This is the dude i believe you are talking about when it comes to time travel..



YouTube - The World's First Time Machine - 1/5 (High Quality)


Enjoy peeps...
Old 14th November 2009
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mexicola View Post
That's a great article. I couldn't agree more!
Although I think the unethical digital editing of music is a symptom of a larger problem in our culture. Which is that we've become obsessed with portraying perfection at the expense of reality.

Although when a majority of the population thinks that a make believe deity is real, and that the reality of scientific evidence is make believe, it's not hard to see why reality would be the first thing to go out the window in popular art.
I think the problem itself is actually the overly scientifical approach to making records. Thus, the phenomenological reality - "what it feels like" - is dismissed in favor of following theoretically idealized numerical values.

"Perfect time" should refer to perfect groove, not numerically exact time or tempo. The relative phase of the tracks is perfect when you feel the song, not when the meters tell it's perfect. The list goes on and on, and on.

We are constantly "snapping things to grid"...problem is, that grid is not emotional, it's numerical.
Old 14th November 2009
  #42
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ianbryn11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by russchapman View Post
Now, the question is- instead of always passing the buck, how much can music professionals (us, you, etc...) claim some responsibility, and help reverse the trend (and embrace imperfection, otherwise know as human-ity).

Cheers...
funny, that is usually my conclusions when reading threads on this subject. Many people claim that music is dying because of auto tune, quantization, ect... ect.... ect.... When does it end???? Well, you have the power to end it. Your the producer/engineer.... just dont use it... Simple.... embrace the flaws....
Old 14th November 2009
  #43
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I don't think fixing/perfecting everything is the problem...

if you don't tune and quantize everything you'll just have a bunch of mediocre music that's out of tune and out of time...
Old 14th November 2009
  #44
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
funny, that is usually my conclusions when reading threads on this subject. Many people claim that music is dying because of auto tune, quantization, ect... ect.... ect.... When does it end???? Well, you have the power to end it. Your the producer/engineer.... just dont use it... Simple.... embrace the flaws....
BINGO!
Old 14th November 2009
  #45
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
...Your the producer/engineer.... just dont use it... Simple.... embrace the flaws....
Probably a better way to look at it is don't be lazy.

Sometimes fixes help but often they don't feel right.

There's even nothing wrong with using a click but you need to make damned sure it's at the right tempo which can be very very tricky to determine. Music is often about tension against even time where nothing is ever played square on the beat but everybody is totally conscious of where the beat is. The beginning of a note is not the beginning of a sample. It's about how it joins with the other notes in the ensemble. This is why quantization isn't accurate enough as opposed to being too accurate. Musical time is the subtlest thing in the world.

Nothing outside of synthesizers has ever been equal tempered. A great musician or singer bends all the notes so that they feel in tune. One electronic tuner frequently doesn't agree with another.

As for so-called flaws, there are things right and wrong about everything. A great recording is when what's great totally distracts the listener from everything that's wrong. Where people screw up is by sacrificing what's great in an effort to achieve nothing wrong. It's classic cowardly behavior.
Old 14th November 2009
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I don't think fixing/perfecting everything is the problem...

if you don't tune and quantize everything you'll just have a bunch of mediocre music that's out of tune and out of time...
It's about balance. Do you think live music is always mediocre?
Old 14th November 2009
  #47
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steveschizoid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I don't think fixing/perfecting everything is the problem....
I think it's somewhere near half the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
if you don't tune and quantize everything you'll just have a bunch of mediocre music that's out of tune and out of time...
I'll take my mediocre music in tune and in time, thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Probably a better way to look at it is don't be lazy.

Sometimes fixes help but often they don't feel right.

As for so-called flaws, there are things right and wrong about everything. A great recording is when what's great totally distracts the listener from everything that's wrong
But when something is so wrong it totally distracts from what is great (or even merely good), shouldn't it be fixed?

The sheer difficulty of fixing such issues 35 years ago probably forced everyone (musicians, producers, engineers) to be better at what they do.
When everyone knows they have to make it through the song without a fatal mistake, it introduces a certain tension, and, although it can be frustrating for everyone who has to sit through take after take after take, the eventual result usually proves worth the effort. When there was no undo, editing decisions had to be a lot less casually made, and in some cases were an art form unto themselves. I'm thinking of Strawberry Fields Forever.

On the other hand, when you are in a session with a singer who continually pings the suckometer, someone who just can't hear that he's not in tune - there's probably no point in torturing everyone any longer than necessary, right?

I think the real problem occurs anytime art is reduced to formulae, but, of course, that is an issue that predates autotune and the DAW. Yesterday's mediocrity is forgotten in the face of the ocean of today's mediocrity.

However, there has to be as much genius (or at least interesting, authentic music that arises from the particular lives and idiosincrasies of the people involved) as there ever has been, but, given the relentless onslaught of corporate homogenization in every aspect of our lives, it might take more time and effort to find it.
Old 14th November 2009
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StereoPari View Post
It's about balance. Do you think live music is always mediocre?
If it's mediocre music...than yeah, it's always mediocre!
Old 14th November 2009
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveschizoid View Post
I think it's somewhere near half the problem.

I'll take my mediocre music in tune and in time, thank you.
Exactly! Might as well...
Old 14th November 2009
  #50
Rock lost its expression? ....you mean the chorus isn't supposed to be quieter than the verse like i hear it on the radio?
What piece of gear is available to undo that so the 'quiet' parts are soft again and the chorus is 'loud'? Any rec's?
Old 14th November 2009
  #51
Gear Nut
 
eusagc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Probably a better way to look at it is don't be lazy.

Sometimes fixes help but often they don't feel right.

There's even nothing wrong with using a click but you need to make damned sure it's at the right tempo which can be very very tricky to determine. Music is often about tension against even time where nothing is ever played square on the beat but everybody is totally conscious of where the beat is. The beginning of a note is not the beginning of a sample. It's about how it joins with the other notes in the ensemble. This is why quantization isn't accurate enough as opposed to being too accurate. Musical time is the subtlest thing in the world.

Nothing outside of synthesizers has ever been equal tempered. A great musician or singer bends all the notes so that they feel in tune. One electronic tuner frequently doesn't agree with another.

As for so-called flaws, there are things right and wrong about everything. A great recording is when what's great totally distracts the listener from everything that's wrong. Where people screw up is by sacrificing what's great in an effort to achieve nothing wrong. It's classic cowardly behavior.
Some really heavy stuff here Bob... I couldn't agree with you more...

Music is art, and art is the human expression of life. I recall Bruce Swedien saying somewhere that the human heartbeat is the most primitive form of rhythm. And if it is, it never beats perfectly.

Music as an audible and temporal art tries to connect emotionally, and if what only matters is the perfection in the music, then we should just all make music using MIDI.

I did a major project with a soprano artist many years ago, she was from a very distinguished national choir group. The delivery of the songs was dynamite, we all got goosebumps in the control room. And I couldn't believe how much on-pitch she was, I mean, maybe I could step on her toes and she still wouldn't be out of tune...

For the fun of it, I tried Autotune on her vocals after tracking, and to my surprise the plugin showed that the takes weren't that perfect after all! Did I want to mess it with? The answer should be obvious...
Old 14th November 2009
  #52
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post

As for so-called flaws, there are things right and wrong about everything. A great recording is when what's great totally distracts the listener from everything that's wrong. Where people screw up is by sacrificing what's great in an effort to achieve nothing wrong. It's classic cowardly behavior.
Hmmmm, there you go again......tempting me to re-arrange my sig hehhehheh The fear is the problem! Always is.
Old 14th November 2009
  #53
Gear Nut
 
Wake's Avatar
 

This is all a great philosophical debate but gimme a break. Its pure in theory but its like saying wouldnt it be great if society didnt need to police itself and we could just trust people not to be criminals! Fact is, years ago when I made imperfect recordings nobody cared or listened and they were embarrassed for me... at least now I can get some people to listen to a whole song.

This embracing the imperfection of music is a very noble concept--buts it works as a concept. Reality paints a very different picture. The wisdom of the crowds says 'perfect' music is more palatable--whatever anyone says.

Maybe I'll get bashed for having the contrarian view but until the listening public makes it known with their cash that they dont like overcompression and 'loudness' its not going to change. Its safe to say loudness came about BECAUSE the public listened with the wallets. The truch is the only people who notice that stuff are musicians with elitist mentalities making themselves feel better by putting down whats on the radio because its not their music thats being broadcast. I'm not saying its right or desireable--i'm saying its a fact that we should just deal with. Cuz I know the last thing my non-musical friends are doing when listening to a song they like on the radio is commenting how much the vocals were squashed.

I don't see us going back to black and white television no matter how much better the contrast is.
Old 14th November 2009
  #54
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wake View Post
Maybe I'll get bashed for having the contrarian view but until the listening public makes it known with their cash that they dont like overcompression and 'loudness' its not going to change. Its safe to say loudness came about BECAUSE the public listened with the wallets.
No, actually, it's not.

Some of the biggest sellers of all time (Rumours, Boston, the Wall, etc ad infinitum) came out with extraordinary amounts of peak headroom. That emphatically includes Boston even though it is crazy compressed- the original Boston record is super compressed but is NOT overlimited and has crazy, crazy peak headroom, which is being actively used constantly without bumping the RMS up significantly.

Those were the days the music business was exploding, rather than decaying. People are still making it known with their cash that they like the memories of those days- they will continue to buy that music over again, even in overlimited form, because it made such an impression at the time.

Fixing tune and time is a separate issue- but as far as loudness goes, if you must make a correlation with mechanical things such as loudness measurements, I'd suggest the opposite correlation- people vote with their wallets for continued peak energy over RMS, the opposite of the current situation. Wal-Mart rack jobber CD selection committees and radio promo vote with their wallets for raw RMS loudness, and that's enough to skew the output of the industry, but that won't make the consumer take out their wallets.
Old 14th November 2009
  #55
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wake View Post
This is all a great philosophical debate but gimme a break. Its pure in theory but its like saying wouldnt it be great if society didnt need to police itself and we could just trust people not to be criminals! Fact is, years ago when I made imperfect recordings nobody cared or listened and they were embarrassed for me... at least now I can get some people to listen to a whole song.

This embracing the imperfection of music is a very noble concept--buts it works as a concept. Reality paints a very different picture. The wisdom of the crowds says 'perfect' music is more palatable--whatever anyone says.

Maybe I'll get bashed for having the contrarian view but until the listening public makes it known with their cash that they dont like overcompression and 'loudness' its not going to change. Its safe to say loudness came about BECAUSE the public listened with the wallets. The truch is the only people who notice that stuff are musicians with elitist mentalities making themselves feel better by putting down whats on the radio because its not their music thats being broadcast. I'm not saying its right or desireable--i'm saying its a fact that we should just deal with. Cuz I know the last thing my non-musical friends are doing when listening to a song they like on the radio is commenting how much the vocals were squashed.

I don't see us going back to black and white television no matter how much better the contrast is.
I'm sorry, but this is just the perfect illustration of the misconception.

When there isn't enough magic to make the irregularities in the music feel like intent and character, the line is take them out as to not offend. You get left with unoffensive sounds. Not magical music.

There's a balance here. Magic on one side, irregularites on the other. If the balance is right, the irregularities all SEEM to work FOR the tune, as they're included in the bubble the magic makes. Take them out and you weaken or destroy the magic, as you are chopping some of its legs off. If however you have not much magic there to begin with, the balance is off anyway. So you start weeding out irregularities to make it less offensive. It gets less offensive. In fact it becomes a non entity. Non offensive. Non exciting. Pointless.

If you think that's more palatable and desired by the masses, I suggest get a handle on how this works. If you'd hit a dance floor of people with, say James Brown (no human I know is immune to this magic) and the lastest X-factor winner's record, you'll soon see how humanity feels in regard to the comparison of magic and something 'non-offensive'.

Old 14th November 2009
  #56
Gear Nut
 
Wake's Avatar
 

The things is, in popular music anyway, is that the second you decide on a genre let alone instrumentation you are already starting a massive snowball effect called 'losing audience'.

Throw in the human voice (auto-tuned and all) and you still have a very individualized instrument that quite frankly has so many timbral nuances and differences that even if you managed to keep a mass of people listening past your genre/instrument choices you are STILL going to lose some people.

Play Bob Dylan for a 10 year old who;s been brought up on popular music and he or she will look at you like youre crazy for suggesting its good music. To you or me that James Brown recording might be great becuase the bias of listening to it under the certain circumstances cant be shaken--whereas a child might question why his breathing is audible or might be distracted by the sound of the bassplayers fingers sliding on the strings between notes. (you know--I've worked in television post production for over ten years as an editor and producer--and I can't imagine trying to explain to an executive producer that leaving in all the 'ums and uhs' in an interview is a good idea because it preserves the 'magic' of it.)

It'd be an interesting experiment nonetheless. I wonder how an unbias control group might react to hearing stuff like that.

@ChrisJ.... look all those recordings you mentioned are great BUT they wouldnt sell nearly that many copies if they were released in todays market. Like or not, peak head room is Just not a desirable quality at the moment. Some one figured out that louder means better selling.



In the end if a musician wants to reach the biggest audience possible --and forget about making money, those days are all but long gone-- then the musician better adapt or die. It's all very darwinian and un-artistic--but them's the apples.
Old 14th November 2009
  #57
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

That to me sounds just like the rationale at the cause of what this thread is about. And it seems millions of perfectly intelligent people are caught in the 'sense' of it. It's a thinking based on PR BS, based on spin living. Nothing much to do with music or the making of it. Them's the apples indeed.
Old 14th November 2009
  #58
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Probably a better way to look at it is don't be lazy.

Sometimes fixes help but often they don't feel right.
Musical time is the subtlest thing in the world.

Where people screw up is by sacrificing what's great in an effort to achieve nothing wrong. It's classic cowardly behavior.
I remember when I was still busy, these people I wouldn't trust my dog to were being hired, by other people I wouldn't trust my dog to, because, the good people were on "avoidance maneuvers" trying to keep away from them.
I know some engineers that actually pulled the plug on some phonies' careers live.
Bravo to them. BALLS!
That's what you need to have sometimes, I say it all the time, "grow a backbone!".
Sometimes it's up to YOU to DO SOMETHING about the water leaking into this boat!
BEFORE IT SINKS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wake View Post
This is all a great philosophical debate but gimme a break. Its pure in theory but its like saying wouldnt it be great if society didnt need to police itself and we could just trust people not to be criminals! Fact is, years ago when I made imperfect recordings nobody cared or listened and they were embarrassed for me... at least now I can get some people to listen to a whole song.
I guess "practicing" was ruled out?
Quote:
This embracing the imperfection of music is a very noble concept--buts it works as a concept. Reality paints a very different picture. The wisdom of the crowds says 'perfect' music is more palatable--whatever anyone says.
The "crowds" didn't call for this, it was 100% supply side and only when nonmusical types jumped their cubicle walls, found out they didn't have what it takes, then immediately began trying DESPERATELY to hide it. COWARDS. They also stabbed good talented people in the back and took credit for things they didn't actually do in the process. I SAW PLENTY.
Quote:
Maybe I'll get bashed for having the contrarian view but until the listening public makes it known with their cash that they dont like overcompression and 'loudness' its not going to change. Its safe to say loudness came about BECAUSE the public listened with the wallets.
No, it's not. They've STOPPED buying because of it. That is THE POINT of this.
Quote:
The truch is the only people who notice that stuff are musicians with elitist mentalities making themselves feel better by putting down whats on the radio because its not their music thats being broadcast.
NO, WE are just the people capable of understanding WHY they aren't buying. Denying reality isn't a solution.
Quote:
I know the last thing my non-musical friends are doing when listening to a song they like on the radio is commenting how much the vocals were squashed.
I don't see us going back to black and white television no matter how much better the contrast is.
That's because THEY weren't told what was done, which might make their skin crawl, they don't know why.
I don't see anyone with a backbone accepting the edict of "just deal with it" it's not an enhancement, it's a hinderance. Not going to just accept it. No. Not sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wake View Post
The things is, in popular music anyway, is that the second you decide on a genre let alone instrumentation you are already starting a massive snowball effect called 'losing audience'.
Look how many genre's there are too, we didn't differentiate crappy music into the "limp weenie" catagory, or what have you. But you still haven't proven anything yet.
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Throw in the human voice (auto-tuned and all) and you still have a very individualized instrument that quite frankly has so many timbral nuances and differences that even if you managed to keep a mass of people listening past your genre/instrument choices you are STILL going to lose some people.
I call BULLSHIT on that. 15 yard penalty. People used to buy and listen to entire albums, now they CAN'T because it's irritating after 3 minutes. When the game is to have every single person "like" your stuff "because there are no offending notes or timing issues", you are PANDERING, not making music or art. TV ethics. Some people "should not like" what I have to say and should be offended. DON'T buy my stuff.
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Play Bob Dylan for a 10 year old who;s been brought up on popular music and he or she will look at you like youre crazy for suggesting its good music. To you or me that James Brown recording might be great becuase the bias of listening to it under the certain circumstances cant be shaken--whereas a child might question why his breathing is audible or might be distracted by the sound of the bassplayers fingers sliding on the strings between notes. (you know--I've worked in television post production for over ten years as an editor and producer--and I can't imagine trying to explain to an executive producer that leaving in all the 'ums and uhs' in an interview is a good idea because it preserves the 'magic' of it.)
HEY GENIUS, MUSIC ISN'T TV! My point is totally PROVEN. WE KNOW how TV producers think. Music is not a commercial, and how would your TV station go if it were 100% loud 3.5 minute spots with NO CONTENT to sell those spots?
Your argument argues against the growth and maturity of the audience and switches desirability and production knowledge in it's place. BAD FORM. Audiences MUST mature, when they understand Bob's lyrics they forego the perfection for the reality and enlightenment. Maturity is sometimes when you realize that the imperfection is perfection. What autotune and beat detective do is remove offensiveness, a cowardly act, it's like cutting the balls off the wolf hat "might" eat you, when you need to know that a wolf will eat you. It's STUPID.
Audiences didn't call for this stuff, R&B producers called for this stuff, then the sales team at the factory started high pressure sales tactics on the weak minded, those without foresight, and those people are easy to convince to do the "easy way to a hit" is not going to be a hole in the bottom of everyone's boat. They don't care, if they can get out before it does, then their ethos is SCREW YOU, I GOT MINE. Not even enough balls for a dog eat dog.
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It'd be an interesting experiment nonetheless. I wonder how an unbias control group might react to hearing stuff like that.
More TV ethics. MUSIC by committee, yet another wonderful TV suggestion, same people evolved THAT concept too. Maybe you haven't noticed that a few minutes of listening to a production technique by someone who doesn't work in the industry doesn't exactly let them in on what the possible ramifications of widespread use of that technology will do to that industry as a whole. NO sense of community or sustainability in fact that wasn't even ever part of the discussion but it plays as big a part or bigger in the big picture. I'm sorry, but this IS what happens when the assholes take over and run things. Art goes out the window for the buck and they'll argue all day how their stuff is "better" because it's more perfect and safe,
WELL HAVE YOU LOOKED AT RECENT SALES? SAFE DOESN'T WORK.
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@ChrisJ.... look all those recordings you mentioned are great BUT they wouldnt sell nearly that many copies if they were released in todays market. Like or not, peak head room is Just not a desirable quality at the moment. Some one figured out that louder means better selling.
No they didn't, they figured that when putting a loud record next to a quiet record A/B'd to an audience, they would pick the louder version because they could hear it easier, no test was done to make sure they would be able to listen to an album produced that way, EVER, and it was a sales gimmick support, had nothing to do with quality of experience. have you looked at sales lately?
That's a TV commercial formula, beginning to realize who migrated to the music industry yet? It's for real, it happened.
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In the end if a musician wants to reach the biggest audience possible --and forget about making money, those days are all but long gone-- then the musician better adapt or die. It's all very darwinian and un-artistic--but them's the apples.
BULLSHIT.
That's an uninformed opinion based on supply side theory and the results now say you're wrong.
Old 14th November 2009
  #59
Gear Nut
 
Wake's Avatar
 

You can sit here and call my points STUPID or insinuate I'm an asshole and tell me how wrong I am all you like, the only thing it will accomplish it making you seem like you want to win and unwinable argument through posturing and whatever semblence of false bravado it implies... it still doesnt change that music in today's market is HIGHLY COMPRESSED when compared to music from 20-30 ago. FACT.

In fact the whole 'remastering' craze, whereby old recordings are squashed and thier louness maximized, is proof in and of itself.

And to insinuate the record sales are declining because the safe route doesnt work is to ignore the colossal hit the industry has taken since the advent of the .mp3 and the massive upheaval it caused in the way record companies need to approach the market, so please don't use industry wide criteria as a form of statistical proof when their are other clearly more pressing factors.

I think 10 years of being in the entertainment industry at multiple levels HAS in fact taught me alot about how entertainment industries function. You can chooses to ignore what I'm saying if you like--and believe me as a matter of principle i agree the louness wars are unfavorable--but turning the tide of the current state of the industry will be nigh impossible. SO make imperfect music if you like. I'm not here to stop you.
Old 14th November 2009
  #60
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wake View Post
You can sit here and call my points STUPID or insinuate I'm an asshole and tell me how wrong I am all you like, the only thing it will accomplish it making you seem like you want to win and unwinable argument through posturing and whatever semblence of false bravado it implies... it still doesnt change that music in today's market is HIGHLY COMPRESSED when compared to music from 20-30 ago. FACT.
I understand that quoting you may lead to this being personal, but, no personal attacks are intended or implied.
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In fact the whole 'remastering' craze, whereby old recordings are squashed and thier louness maximized, is proof in and of itself.
It's only proof that it is done, it IS NOT PROOF of WHY it was done.
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And to insinuate the record sales are declining because the safe route doesnt work is to ignore the colossal hit the industry has taken since the advent of the .mp3 and the massive upheaval it caused in the way record companies need to approach the market, so please don't use industry wide criteria as a form of statistical proof when their are other clearly more pressing factors.
Wrong, I stated that it was one of three broken legs, you may be married to your position.
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I think 10 years of being in the entertainment industry at multiple levels HAS in fact taught me alot about how entertainment industries function. You can chooses to ignore what I'm saying if you like--and believe me as a matter of principle i agree the louness wars are unfavorable--but turning the tide of the current state of the industry will be nigh impossible. SO make imperfect music if you like. I'm not here to stop you.
I think that my 35 years trumps your ten. In thirty five years I've met plenty of people. People you'll never have the chance to meet because they are dead.

I don't think anyone has to do anything, as witnessed by the decline, the TV ethos hand is playing out and it is total failure. By your statements you know about the template that the television "pro's" who migrated to the music biz have lead you to believe, that doesn't make it true, doesn't make it work, and obviously, it hasn't panned out to be a workable sustainable balance. I've met them too, vapid people.
Maybe just because you can do something doesn't mean it will preserve a sustainable workable balance, like a nuclear weapon.

PS, I saw your video, kinda pandering with the pantydancer. Not complaining, just saying. I know, it's video, you don't have to be upset.
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