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UnNatural Perfection (and the end of rock)
Old 22nd November 2009
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
Karloff ,
I think it was you that I was talking to about the older 60's-70's European instrumental electronic music, the recording style and minimalistic feeling of it. How can 1 damn note sustained for 5 minutes with a shivering triangle wave playing a 3 note melody every 30 seconds have more to do with love than a Michael Bolton love letter?
I think it might have been Batchainpuller you were talking to, but nevertheless, how the f** can it not??? heh Most things have more to do with love.....
Old 22nd November 2009
  #332
But, what's funny, in one of the Kraftwerk documentaries, one of the Kraftwerk guys talks about how much more human and organic their electronic music sounds than modern electronic music. Their msuic, at that time, though it was popular, I think would have been seen by most people as being very sterile and uber-minimalist and completely without emotion and 'swing' (even if they weren't able to necessarily articulate it in those terms.)

So it's always relative, just like people who love Zepplin (who people before that time would have considered nothing but noise) now complain about music being nothing but noise (more or less.)
Old 22nd November 2009
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
that is about exactly the analytic reasoning I tried to describe heh

We strive for something 'good' so we correct the 'wrongs' in the process and get something perfect... like in: face lift, liposuction, botox, boop job... oops, where did the person go?
It's a matter of choices and degrees, though, isn't it? People have been correcting wrongs probably since time began in every way. Makeup, braces, underwear that holds in your stomach or something, hair products...very few people walk around natural their whole lives...

Digital sound is thought of as more real and natural, but nobody likes that either. Seems those who don't like things f*cked with in one way tend to like it f*cked with in another.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
It's a matter of choices and degrees, though, isn't it? People have been correcting wrongs probably since time began in every way. Makeup, braces, underwear that holds in your stomach or something, hair products...very few people walk around natural their whole lives...

Digital sound is thought of as more real and natural, but nobody likes that either. Seems those who don't like things f*cked with in one way tend to like it f*cked with in another.
Absolutely heh But there's always the 'danger' of going too far, losing the original 'reason why' and replacing it by habitually assuming correction works for the better. I think we're at the point were recorded tracks get compressed and eq-ed almost as a rule, autotune, beat detective and sound replacement are used to 'correct' performances and sound. I always wondered: if you need to use all of those, why even bother?
Old 23rd November 2009
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
Absolutely heh But there's always the 'danger' of going too far, losing the original 'reason why' and replacing it by habitually assuming correction works for the better. I think we're at the point were recorded tracks get compressed and eq-ed almost as a rule, autotune, beat detective and sound replacement are used to 'correct' performances and sound. I always wondered: if you need to use all of those, why even bother?
I basically agree with you in that I don't really like most of this stuff, just like when you see some plastic surgery, and you think holy shit what are they thinking...

But...

I'm not sure it's really about "need"...I think people like to do it because they like to do it, it's a trend and it's a sound. I think in the past, "real" guitarists thought guitarists who "needed" to put distortion all over their sound were hiding behind it. Maybe sometimes that was true...still true today for many guitarists....you get a big impressive wall of sound out of a simple A chord, you don't have to be very good...many might think "why bother" but others would say "why not, it's fun, we like it, who cares, it's rock n roll man!"
Old 23rd November 2009
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
It's a matter of choices and degrees, though, isn't it? People have been correcting wrongs probably since time began in every way. Makeup, braces, underwear that holds in your stomach or something, hair products...very few people walk around natural their whole lives...
The "Manzirre".
Quote:
Digital sound is thought of as more real and natural, but nobody likes that either. Seems those who don't like things f*cked with in one way tend to like it f*cked with in another.
I think that was true in the 16 bit days and before but in the 24 bit reality it's not so much of an issue anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I basically agree with you in that I don't really like most of this stuff, just like when you see some plastic surgery, and you think holy shit what are they thinking...
I think surgeons get tired of working on the same old faces and try to "burlesque" what the patients ask for so they won't come back, creating monstrosities in the process.
Quote:
But...

I'm not sure it's really about "need"...I think people like to do it because they like to do it, it's a trend and it's a sound. I think in the past, "real" guitarists thought guitarists who "needed" to put distortion all over their sound were hiding behind it.
Nope, it's about not having enough ammo so they polish the gun nice and pretty, or, the apples taste like crap, but they're red and waxed to death, or it's a mule, they'll haul some stuff well, but, no sense in trying to make one from your best one.
Quote:

Maybe sometimes that was true...still true today for many guitarists....you get a big impressive wall of sound out of a simple A chord, you don't have to be very good...many might think "why bother" but others would say "why not, it's fun, we like it, who cares, it's rock n roll man!"
I don't think that's it. It would be nice if it was, but, it's not.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
The "Manzirre".

The correct name is 'bro'.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
The correct name is 'bro'.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
That'll help later today when I hit the store for a "black Friday" deal.
Thanks
Old 23rd November 2009
  #339
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As a random point of reference,

This month I have bought three albums to date:

Down / Down 2
Mastodon / Crack the Skye
Royksopp / Junior

I honestly don't hear any problems with modern music. I do not have golden ears. If something is over compressed I am not smart enough to know it. Maybe others have checked it out and can hear the click tracks? I still like it, but let me know if you disagree, so I can identify it when it happens.

When I turn on the radio, I do hear an issue with pop. There is not a lot of poetry going on in the music. Anybody can sing I love you. Even though Lady Gaga's music isn't bad, I don't think anyway, the Bad Romance song is pretty obvious. Compare to Like a Virgin. Musically and sonically, both might be considered equivalent (dispute if you like, w/examples, I haven't really critically listened to Bad Romance). Lyrically though, I think the Madonna songwriters were a lot more poetic.

credit to original songwriters, whoever they may be...

lady gaga:
I want your psycho
Your vertigo stick
Want you in my room
When your baby is sick

Madonna:
Like a virgin
Touched for the very first time
Like a virgin
When your heart beats
Next to mine

For me, I appreciate a band like Muse (not really Pop I supposed) because they are bringing in deeper questions to the consciousness of the popular mind. That to me is the power of art (visual, audio, written, or combos of all three), when it causes personal reflection and an expansion of perspective on one world. Pop is always limited because it must be accessible or it ceases to be pop and becomes the fringe, which I have always liked more anyway. Great pop, like Dan Brown's Da Vinci code (which on a literary level is not a master piece) is great because not only is it accessible to a mass audience, it causes people who usually don't partake in art to think.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
This is one of the best pop albulms I've ever heard, and it came out last year. I saw these guys at the Louisiana International Festival this year, freakin gorgeous music. You can't get this stuff out of your head. Production is stellar too, tracked to tape. Perfection in my book!

Just checking back, did anyone give this a listen? I'd like to know what you think.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #341
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I was thinking about this as I did 3 hours of editing last night, due to a chunk of a bass track that got moved inadvertently and was in the headphones when drums were recorded later (along with other tracks that hadn't been moved).

Maybe it's naive of me, but I feel like I have a pretty decent method of dealing with edits while not going too far with them.

When I hear a timing issue that I think needs to be fixed, I check other parts of the song (a comparable part, or the best part) and get a sense of where the affected instruments are relative to the beat. Then I choose the smallest possible unit to snap to, and edit until I have the parts resembling the other sections (ie. not putting everything right on the grid/beat). Then I go over it another time or two to hopefully make sure the rhythmic feel seems natural and consistent with the rest of the song.

If a section sounds funny after that procedure, usually, splitting the difference between my edited positions and the original positions will take care of it, so I'll undo the changes and "half-re-do" them. It's important for me to go through these things a second time on a different day, to make sure they still sound good; I'm sure everybody knows the fatigue that can make it hard to judge after working on something for a while.

If I have a few out of tune notes on something, rather than use a pitch correction plug in, I'll normally use a pitch shifter plugin , set to 100% processed signal, and do an automation on the # of cents +/- (with the rest of the song at 0), so that only the notes that need correction are touched. It can be tricky finding the spots to come in and exit the pitch shift so that the adjacent notes don't sound manupulated, but I like the control.

A track that has lots of pitch issues, can get the full blown pitch correction plugin, but I will still at least find some sections where I'll bypass the plugin because it isn't needed.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #342
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My question:
What if you have scenario #3, buncha pitch shifting where you use the plug, what is the reason you don't call the player back in o re-do his parts? Please answer honestly.


Every time I've called them back in, they've come up with a much more interesting part than the first part.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #343
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I like masking. That's what isn't around anymore on records due to digital fixer pluggs. I like the idea of having one track designed to play through a song, and play notes or chords on top of wrong notes from other performances to blend them into the mix, trying to disguise the mistakes. It's the channel labeled "chameleon" on my board...LOL.. Lots of magic in older albulms doing this. I like the sound, you NEVER get the same results trying it over and over, and it sorta creates new chords. Kinda neat.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
My question:
What if you have scenario #3, buncha pitch shifting where you use the plug, what is the reason you don't call the player back in o re-do his parts? Please answer honestly.


Every time I've called them back in, they've come up with a much more interesting part than the first part.


Because this is a zero dollar budget project where I am simply asking friends to come over for free and track parts for me. I just feed and water (/alcohol) them. I get what I can when I can get it, when it comes to drums, horns, and anything else that neither my collaborator nor myself can play personally for our project.

With the plug, the problem was solved in minutes. My friend played the trombone part when he was in town before a gig. He has kids and teaches and lives an hour away, and it might be months before we could track with him again; even then, I wouldn't ask him to redo a small ensemble part that is perfectly fine in the mix. If it was the main melody of a song or something, it could be a different story, but I have been developing quite a pragmatic streak recently.

It's in the song "Break Forth" on the myspace page in my sig; the last time through (of 3 total in the song) on the trombone part, the intonation was out, so the pitch corrector is on from the beginning of that lick, until the beginning of the very last line, where he does a glissando; no pitch correction on that closing line (it would have destroyed it).

"More interesting" as a redo wouldn't be applicable here as the part was already written and demo'd/monitored in the mix as virtual instrument, he played it as written in this case as it was part of the planned arrangement and needed to be just that way because of the way it duets with the bass at the end.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
Just checking back, did anyone give this a listen? I'd like to know what you think.
i liked em... sounded like chill music form what i heard... added em on myspace.... gonna listen some more when i get a chance.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
My question:
What if you have scenario #3, buncha pitch shifting where you use the plug, what is the reason you don't call the player back in o re-do his parts? Please answer honestly.


Every time I've called them back in, they've come up with a much more interesting part than the first part.

i agree. Best way to do it in my opinion. Nothing beats good ol fashioned solid performance....
Old 23rd November 2009
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
i agree. Best way to do it in my opinion. Nothing beats good ol fashioned solid performance....
No doubt that is the best way, but the variables in the equation can change, and yet there is still a built in tension between the desire to get something done, and the desire for the best possible performance/recording, all earthly concerns (time, money, logistics) be damned.

They creep into our decisions in varying ways, but I don't think it's possible and arguably maybe not even desirable to banish them from influencing us. So to me there is no such thing as a fundamental difference on these kinds of questions, just different places where each of us might draw the line depending on the ever changing particulars.

I mean, who is going to call back a percussionist to redo a single triangle hit on a track by itself that can be easily moved in a DAW ? Nobody in their right mind, and from that observation flows my argument.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teleharmonium View Post
No doubt that is the best way, but the variables in the equation can change, and yet there is still a built in tension between the desire to get something done, and the desire for the best possible performance/recording, all earthly concerns (time, money, logistics) be damned.

They creep into our decisions in varying ways, but I don't think it's possible and arguably maybe not even desirable to banish them from influencing us. So to me there is no such thing as a fundamental difference on these kinds of questions, just different places where each of us might draw the line depending on the ever changing particulars.

I mean, who is going to call back a percussionist to redo a single triangle hit on a track by itself that can be easily moved in a DAW ? Nobody in their right mind, and from that observation flows my argument.
i hear where your comin from, but i think nudging a single triangle hit is a bit different than nudging some notes using auto tune.... Voclas are arguably the most intimate instrument, and in my opinion, auto tune doesn't do em justice....

I recorded a song a few nights ago... The vocal take was good, but i murdered the last note.... SO i did the whole take over again. Then dropped the last line from the second take into the first take. Thats the kind of editing im into, but even that can go awry if over done. Idealy, i like to get a good take form start to finish.. This song though i have been trying to record for a few months, and it never seems to sound right to my ears. So, when i got a take that i thought was good, (asside form the last line), i decided to give it one more go all the way through. (who knows, maybee the second take would have been better all the way through....) Turned out it wasn't as good, but the last line was ok..... A simple edit, and Im happy with listening to it it all the way through.....
Old 23rd November 2009
  #349
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as an after thought, the DAW is a very powerfull beast, with the ability to make or break you music.... I think responsible usage of its power is what where talkng about here.... And i have to say that there is probably no right or wrong way.... Just different perspectives, being quantified by different tastes...
Old 23rd November 2009
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
i hear where your comin from, but i think nudging a single triangle hit is a bit different than nudging some notes using auto tune.... Voclas are arguably the most intimate instrument, and in my opinion, auto tune doesn't do em justice....

I recorded a song a few nights ago... The vocal take was good, but i murdered the last note.... SO i did the whole take over again. Then dropped the last line from the second take into the first take. Thats the kind of editing im into, but even that can go awry if over done. Idealy, i like to get a good take form start to finish.. This song though i have been trying to record for a few months, and it never seems to sound right to my ears. So, when i got a take that i thought was good, (asside form the last line), i decided to give it one more go all the way through. (who knows, maybee the second take would have been better all the way through....) Turned out it wasn't as good, but the last line was ok..... A simple edit, and Im happy with listening to it it all the way through.....
That makes sense, but that approach wasn't that hard considering it was your own part which you can do again whenever you have the time. I probably wouldn't have auto tuned the vocal either.

If it was on a violin part, and you discovered it after the player had left, using the pitch shifter on that note only starts to look pretty good.

Which goes to show in the real world it's about the pluses and minuses of each situation, not our philosophy about what is ideal.

For that trombone part, I could have alternatively done the same kind of edit you described, copying over the offending section of the trombone part from another take or another time it occurs in the song, but in that mix, no one would be able to tell which of those two solutions I had applied. The only time you can clearly hear the trombone by itself is the last line, after it is no longer in unison with the vocal, and by that point you're past where the pitch correction is applied.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
I think responsible usage of its power is what where talkng about here.... And i have to say that there is probably no right or wrong way.... Just different perspectives, being quantified by different tastes...
Exactly.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #352
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Rabbit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
The correct name is 'bro'.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
KRAMER: How's that feel?

FRANK: This feels very comfortable.

KRAMER: You see?

FRANK: I feel ten years younger.

KRAMER: Yeah, and your posture's a lot better. Look at you.

Frank walks a few paces.

FRANK: And I can breathe easier, too.

KRAMER: I told you! Now, Frank, listen. Here's what I'm thinking. Now, you have
a friend in the bra business, right?

FRANK: Of course. Sid Farkus. He's the best in the business.

KRAMER: (claps his hands) Here's our chance. What d'you say? It'll be me, you
and the bro, bro.

FRANK: Let's do it!

Kramer and Frank share an elaborate and forceful handshake.

FRANK: Except, we gotta do something about the name.

KRAMER: Why, what's wrong with bro?

FRANK: No, bro's no good. Too ethnic.

KRAMER: Alright, you got something better?

FRANK: How 'bout uh... the mansiere?

KRAMER: Mansiere?

FRANK: That's right. A brassiere for a man. The mansiere, get it?

heh
Old 24th November 2009
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
KRAMER: How's that feel?

FRANK: This feels very comfortable.

KRAMER: You see?

FRANK: I feel ten years younger.

KRAMER: Yeah, and your posture's a lot better. Look at you.

Frank walks a few paces.

FRANK: And I can breathe easier, too.

KRAMER: I told you! Now, Frank, listen. Here's what I'm thinking. Now, you have
a friend in the bra business, right?

FRANK: Of course. Sid Farkus. He's the best in the business.

KRAMER: (claps his hands) Here's our chance. What d'you say? It'll be me, you
and the bro, bro.

FRANK: Let's do it!

Kramer and Frank share an elaborate and forceful handshake.

FRANK: Except, we gotta do something about the name.

KRAMER: Why, what's wrong with bro?

FRANK: No, bro's no good. Too ethnic.

KRAMER: Alright, you got something better?

FRANK: How 'bout uh... the mansiere?

KRAMER: Mansiere?

FRANK: That's right. A brassiere for a man. The mansiere, get it?

heh
EGGGGzackly!
Old 24th November 2009
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
Great pop, like Dan Brown's Da Vinci code (which on a literary level is not a master piece) is great because not only is it accessible to a mass audience, it causes people who usually don't partake in art to think.
thumbsup what I learned about art is that it challenges people to look from a different perspective, in other words, look at he world in a different way. Most simply put with Dadaism: show a picture of a hat with the subscription 'this is not a hat'. This should be in next weeks edition of Donald Duck magazine
Old 24th November 2009
  #355
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
thumbsup what I learned about art is that it challenges people to look from a different perspective...

You think? I think most people enjoy and gravitate towards art which does not challenge them; their entrenched perspective may expand a bit, or shift a few degrees, but for the most part people walk away from any given experience with their existing beliefs, biases, prejudices, and expectations reinforced and strengthened.

I believe this is the case because all information, all perspectives, are contained in any given slice or snapshot. You behold the totality in a fragment, and see what you wish to see reflected back at you.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 24th November 2009
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
You think? I think most people enjoy and gravitate towards art which does not challenge them; their entrenched perspective may expand a bit, or shift a few degrees, but for the most part people walk away from any given experience with their existing beliefs, biases, prejudices, and expectations reinforced and strengthened.

I believe this is the case because all information, all perspectives, are contained in any given slice or snapshot. You behold the totality in a fragment, and see what you wish to see reflected back at you.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
I know I do!
If it isn't post-industrial-punk-metal-techno-swing-funk-blues, I have NO ear for it.
Old 24th November 2009
  #357
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I know I do!
If it isn't post-industrial-punk-metal-techno-swing-funk-blues, I have NO ear for it.
elitist!

heh

Last edited by MixedSignals; 24th November 2009 at 06:41 AM.. Reason: spilled milk
Old 24th November 2009
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
You think? I think most people enjoy and gravitate towards art which does not challenge them; their entrenched perspective may expand a bit, or shift a few degrees, but for the most part people walk away from any given experience with their existing beliefs, biases, prejudices, and expectations reinforced and strengthened.
While that may be true for most of the audience, I think any good art tries to seduce or shock you into a new perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I believe this is the case because all information, all perspectives, are contained in any given slice or snapshot. You behold the totality in a fragment, and see what you wish to see reflected back at you.
On a high spiritual level, yes, I believe so too. As in; you can't ask a question you don't already know the answer to. But for lots of people fear, prejudice and tunnel vision keep them far from being able to go there.
Old 24th November 2009
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
Just checking back, did anyone give this a listen? I'd like to know what you think.
I haven't had a chance to buy a cd yet, but did check out myspace. Pretty gnarly and heavy. Very thematic and verrry los angeles. Great muscle car music, if that makes sense at all. I likes!
Old 24th November 2009
  #360
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crufty's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I think most people enjoy and gravitate towards entertainment which does not challenge them; their entrenched perspective may expand a bit, or shift a few degrees, but for the most part people walk away from any given experience with their existing beliefs, biases, prejudices, and expectations reinforced and strengthened.
a little edit above and I agree...

I think people--as in all people--do like art that challenges them and changes them. The sistine chapel; beethoven's ode to joy; mount rushmore; malevich's white on white; led zepplin ii; churchill's "the second world war"; dan brown's "da vinci code"; the sphinx; van gogh's cherry blossoms--etc. Only a die hard philistine could witness masters of their craft and leave unchanged. Apologies to non-western artists, just not familiar with your stuff I'm afraid.

The more biased one is, the more likely the power of art will change you--ask any born again Christian what the power of the spoken word did to them. If you are already an open, balanced humanist soul--well, likely your perspective will be reinforced.

Overall, I am sure there are three factors that can change one's life: technology (the power of science), nature (the power of the earth), and art (the power of man). And who is to say today's pop isn't reaching out and really touching people? I must admit, just because it isn't touching me doesn't mean it's not impacting others. I do feel though that the pop could be a little more artful and still be popular...that is hard to do.
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