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UnNatural Perfection (and the end of rock)
Old 20th November 2009
  #301
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Yea, it's almost like the sex addict. He or she has done it all, nothing even touches the feeling of where you want it to take you , and then one day you find yourself in the closet naked with a ladder and a neck tie thinking, "Damn, I'm either super kinky or the world just doesn't provide the juice".

Music being a "safer" fix than the later of course. LOL..
Old 20th November 2009
  #302
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
How much of this is because you're no longer the impressionable youngster you once were? The parts of you that were once open to being molded and impacted by outside forces have closed off, become less sensitive, less impressed by what anybody does because you're so deep on the inside of music and production that you know its secrets, the mystery is not a mystery, you can do it yourself at least as well?
Very good point, I think for most people that is a valid concern, I still get pumped up by good music, but, I don't hear some much of it these days, I've definitely heard some. Some have come through my doors here, but, not too many. That isn't new though, it's always been that way. There is band called "Secret Service" awesome live and record live. Great recordings, but, due to a legal snafu, you'll never hear about them. They still play, but, they can not sell recordings because of a crook. Guy named Richard Wyman, big in Europe, shoulda been bigger here, but, somebody got snotty. Hate to say it, but, Jim Dandy, still got it, and his lyrics are great, but, he's old and god knows what else but I bet you could guess.
Quote:
I think it's a natural consequence of growing older, we just don't have the hormones that drive us to attend concerts, scream with our entire bodies, and pump our fists in the air. We can maybe generate that kind of energy for music that's already patterned itself in our emotional cortex when we were younger, but now... not so much.
Ha ha, speak for yourself buddy!
I'm not THAT old. I think for me it's because the kinds of mistakes that are being left in and corrected by software are different than the kinds of mistakes that were left in when I was a kid. Today, we leave in the bad and fix it. Does nothing for the energy, doesn't pump it up and over, just sorta up a notch or two.
Quote:
How much of the rest of your life is 'poking thru'? New adventures, big risks, new relationships and love, everything seeming like the end of the world when it doesn't go your way? My guess is simply by maturing and becoming an adult, mastering the art of managing the world, some aspects by definition cannot burrow into you in the same ways anymore.

Gregory Scott - ubk
.
I think people have been arguing the opposite of that about me on this thread.
I am always on an active adventure to see if I can make a difference wherever I see a problem clearly. I have a stalker that tried to kill me I've never met, I have kids that needed extraordinary measures to keep alive for a protracted period against odds and dirty deeds, an ex wife, a studio, another wife, great people around me, the constant legacy of slavery around and a team to combat that, the establishments efforts to keep that from happening, it never stops.
I'm always on the razor's edge as much as a person in my exact situation can be.
Old 20th November 2009
  #303
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ianbryn11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
I totally understand what you mean. That's actually what I thrive for in my music/mixes. Even as enlightened as alot of my friends are, their ears still want to hear that mix where everything has it's place, and sits nicely, but nothing ever peaks it's head up over the fence, ya know. I understand, it's certainly what most folks are into, but to give your tracks life, there needs to be (for me) a little less glue, a longer leash, where the music resembles more of a horse race where you see things moving up and down, front to back .....a juggling of postioning ...it's more 3D than it is wide with everything carved out.

Very UN- Steelydan of me I know, but I like the excitement of how things get tumbling. For YEARS I was possessed with the sound of The Royal Scam, and then later, Rumours by the wonderful FM. BuT I feel as though I've even moved on from that too, for something more specific vibe/mojo wise, but less realised in the sense of finality.......... exciting sketches that sound good, but aren't reworked to sound polished maybe??

What's interesting is that now I'm most concerned with peformances, and the feeling of going for it, I'LL even leave in mistakes (as long as they don't resemble the chalkboard scrape.... ouch!.) if I think they have real momentum. The days of putting the idea of a "pro sound" as the number one goal are over (for me).Not that I'm on some lo-fi or don't get a damn parade, but what I listen for now is SO different than when I first got into doing this stuff. Getting the chills, being freaked out, bewilderment, scared, enchanted , uncertain, overjoyed , etc.....are the things that excite me about music these days. Anything less has no power.

Tight/great mixes with punch that don't contain any of the above don't even touch my senses. My taste have gotten way more specific, not in styles of music, but in the style of the enchantment it provides.

Oh boy, only one cup of coffee and I'm already letting it out.
Well, it IS FRIDAY!! lol..

Steelyfan
the whole time i was reading this, band called Villa Vina was popping into my head. Sadly, they r not a band anymore, but in my mind, they are one of the greatest musical acts of all time.... (just my opinion) I saw them live for the first time when they where a 3 piece and was completely blown away... Anyway, figured id share.....

Villa Vina on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

Listen to the song "Transformer" and then maybe "What makes you think you will live through this" and if you like em, buy their "demo" from their myspace page.... Best 30 minutes of music that i can think of....
Old 20th November 2009
  #304
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
Listen to the song "Transformer" and then maybe "What makes you think you will live through this" and if you like em, buy their "demo" from their myspace page.... Best 30 minutes of music that i can think of....
Thanks for the link, I'll check them out when I get off work, no speakers or myspace access at the office.

Some bands that I have been listening alot to are:

Tortoise
Can
Dengue fever
Dungen
John Frusciante
Iggy pop
And my hero, Ennio Morricone (everyday rotation)

I'll check your guys out for sure though this evening.

cheers,
Steely
Old 20th November 2009
  #305
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I've looked on internet radio, not much worth singing in the shower to.
Nothing catchy that gets stuck in my head, no infectious grooves, no themes beyond petty self deprication or disingenuous "save the world" junk. Tizzy top end reigns. I kinda miss dense mixes where something would just peek through in a 3-d soundscape, Doesn't have to reflect reality, it could be surreal, but, nothing stirs my soul, small playlists. Instead of burning the tunes in it's burning me out.
I like, organic rock, salsa, reggae, soucous, ska, acoustic folk, funk, blues, jazz, tribal, Indian, orchestral, a electronica ll kinds, it's not like I'm not "the broad side of the barn", something should hit me, but, nothing in pop, some in folk, jazz (but that "doesn't count"), I'm trying to hear rock music that does something more than just lay there.
It just doesn't poke through. I know some is out there, but, it's not poking through.
Get Vienna Teng's Dreaming Through the Noise. I think that's something you would love. It's an amazing piece of work, particularly 'Pontchartrain' and '1 br / 1 ba' and 'Blue Caravan'. Don't listen to a low res MP3 on this one. It requires high resolution on a good system to really appreciate. It was released I think in 2007.
Old 20th November 2009
  #306
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Thanks, Dean, I will, I never listen to MP3's, I don't think I've ever downloaded one.
Old 20th November 2009
  #307
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

This is one of the best pop albulms I've ever heard, and it came out last year. I saw these guys at the Louisiana International Festival this year, freakin gorgeous music. You can't get this stuff out of your head. Production is stellar too, tracked to tape. Perfection in my book!

Old 20th November 2009
  #308
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ianbryn11's Avatar
 

thats a cool lookin guitar hes got there...
Old 20th November 2009
  #309
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
thats a cool lookin guitar hes got there...
The singer's voice makes the world a better place too.
Old 20th November 2009
  #310
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ianbryn11's Avatar
 

ill give a listen....
Old 20th November 2009
  #311
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Me too.
Old 21st November 2009
  #312
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stephenmatthew's Avatar
 

There's plenty of us out there in our 20's who feel not much for most new music. I think more than ever before younger people are going back and listening to the classics, rarities, and indie bands.... looking for SOMETHING. Something real, something that speaks.

My generation has no big movement going on that you can get behind and feel. Yeah there's an "indie" movement, but it's not the same as the grunge movement or other earlier ones. I feel like our movement is Web 2.0... yeah rock and roll!!!! Oh and also, Youtube celebrities and reality shows. Granted, the people who built most of that were Gen X (ironic).

I worked at a music marketing firm for a bit and it was eye opening. And all the indie promo books say the same thing. As an artist now, these books encourage you to do it all DIY with a huge focus on MARKETING over everything else. ...cause that's what the big boys do of course.

...And there is talent out there, but you get the feeling there's nobody that's going to be legendary. But at least in the past few years more of a movement towards more real production- of course this is mostly underground but building steam I hope...

Sometimes I get the feeling that we're on the verge of something happening.. but I really have no idea. Thinking about all this crap was enough to make me not be in music for a while, but of course that didn't last long! I'd rather throw my thimble full of water into the inferno than do nothing.

I definitely think technology on a lot of levels just makes us feel less and especially at this point, busies us doing a whole lotta nothing. You don't need these ridiculous things like polyphonic Melodyne to make music just like you don't need photoshop with a slew of plugins to take a great picture. In fact, just my guitar playing alone suffered when I started with the backwards thinking of fix it in the mix. I mean, play the effin thing through like a man, dammit! And I think I'm going to stop doing it for others too.. gotta start sometime.

But then again, I grew up listening to mostly 50's rock and roll.. so my perspective is all screwed up

And I'm not a huge Jay Z fan.. but I love the message. Shows that people even in THAT community are sick of things.. But unfortunately it just may lead to more clandestine use of it.

Old 21st November 2009
  #313
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I let the song just be.....

Its the imperfections thats keeps it from sounding like everything else ( like Muzak and commercial POP)

The "Imperfections" is sometimes the feeling of the artist connection with the song, and we can't lose that.

Sometimes, producers forget that the true feeling and vision of the song does not always fit in a 4/4 time box, niether be exactly 2:53:00 long either.
Old 21st November 2009
  #314
It would not be particularly suprising if sometime about now we have a realignment. It seems to go in approximately 10 year cycles, where it builds up and builds up and becomes more and more corporate and happy clappy, then some new back to basics thing starts up somewhere and catches on. Given that the final dregs of grunge probably would have been somewhere around 2000 (which would have been about 10 years after the early beginnings of it), we are getting close to the time.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
Since when was music ever visible? Ah, sure on the computer where we can visually set it straight

I'm Dutch, so maybe I used the wrong expression... less exposed better?
I think it started in the 80s...a little something called MTV?

Of course, where would Elvis or The Beatles be without Ed Sullivan?

Also kind of goes along with the album/video game concept and youtube and so on...(pop) music is a pretty visible medium...

having said all that...what good is less exposed art?
Old 22nd November 2009
  #316
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I think it started in the 80s...a little something called MTV?

Of course, where would Elvis or The Beatles be without Ed Sullivan?

Also kind of goes along with the album/video concept and youtube and so on...(pop) music is a pretty visible medium...

having said all that...what good is less exposed art?
Ed Sullivan wasn't on 24-7 everywhere.

MTV was, they glutted the market.

Elvis and the Beatles weren't overexposed, they were properly exposed to sell records.
The Utoob model stinks. There is no way to keep from overexposing your artists if you use it, there are no controls. There needs to be controls to make a product a bit rare, as in, if you have it, you're lucky to get it.
Right now, If you have a product, recording, mp3, there's nothing special about it.

15 years ago I said if I had a band, I would make a video of a cow eating grass, never see the band, because, it's about the music, wanna see'em, got to a show, they aren't actors, they're musicians and artists.

The overexposure and nepotism sponsored music careers for actors thing has confused many media execs for decades, they are starstruck and have no business in this business because they don't know how to keep it afloat, only how to suck off of it like a tick.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #317
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boody's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
The overexposure and nepotism sponsored music careers for actors thing has confused many media execs for decades, they are starstruck and have no business in this business because they don't know how to keep it afloat, only how to suck off of it like a tick.
My take on the whole 'actors who sing' thing and the follow up 'make people famous pop stars in a tv talent show' is these were the signs of an industry in trouble. They couldn't make enough artists famous (so they sell) so they sponsored already famous people that wanted to be an artist. When that well dried out they tried to get 'talented' people to be selected in a show by the audience that is supposed to buy their album when they win.... sick

Recently I listen a lot to the Beatles, Hendrix, Led Zeppelin. I know their music a bit but I never bothered to really listen to it because all the people I didn't want to turn in to raved about them (boring music teachers, lousy guitar players, drug addicts etc). Their music sounds very 'raw' to me and unpolished, sometimes on the verge of 'mistake' and very raw mixed... if you listen to it analytically. But the music tends to go straight to your emotional core and sounds much more pure and genuine than most of todays overproduced stuff. I think we overdid it a tad the last 20 years. In the quest for excitement somehow the meaning of it all got lost...
Old 22nd November 2009
  #318
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boody's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I think it started in the 80s...a little something called MTV?
That would be the artists who became visible, not the music

Btw: less exposed art can be discovered after the death of the artist... think Satie
Old 22nd November 2009
  #319
The 'manufactured pop star' thing is not remotely new though. The whole Frankie Avalon, Neil Sadaka, Fabien, etc... thing was pretty much exactly that. That first rush of rock-n-roll, where Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc... made all those classic records, it was a very short period of time and was then was over for a while. And in the interrim they started manufacturing these bubble gum type sex symbol stars.

And it worked very well, so well that a lot of those songs are now considered classics really. Of course they weren't all just faces. Neil Sadaka was a pretty talented pop song writer, but basically they were just finding faces and having people write songs for them, pushing them hard on the marketing front, and voila.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
The 'manufactured pop star' thing is not remotely new though. The whole Frankie Avalon, Neil Sadaka, Fabien, etc... thing was pretty much exactly that. That first rush of rock-n-roll, where Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc... made all those classic records, it was a very short period of time and was then was over for a while. And in the interrim they started manufacturing these bubble gum type sex symbol stars.

And it worked very well, so well that a lot of those songs are now considered classics really. Of course they weren't all just faces. Neil Sadaka was a pretty talented pop song writer, but basically they were just finding faces and having people write songs for them, pushing them hard on the marketing front, and voila.
With the exception of Fabien, they could all actually sing. Not like today.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #321
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ianbryn11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post

15 years ago I said if I had a band, I would make a video of a cow eating grass
i would love to see that video....
Old 22nd November 2009
  #322
Gear Head
 

I think when the singers and musicians are passionate about the song they are singing, and it is sounding great to them, it is great! When I start thinking about what a perfect and wonderful voice a singer has, or how great the recording is, or what mic they are using, it is usually because there is no passion in the song, and I am bored. Maybe that is why singer-songwriters are amongst my favorites, though there are many singers that are just as great if they don't write their own material but really love the song!!! Of course the ultimate is when everything is perfect and the singer feels it, and delivers a perfect performance. I'm not quite sure of a producers role, if they say to a band, here this is a song that will make you a hit, or this is a song I found that I thought you would really love singing. Hopefully both,lol!!!
Old 22nd November 2009
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
i would love to see that video....
I might just have to do it, there are plenty of cows in Tennessee.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #324
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I might just have to do it, there are plenty of cows in Tennessee.
Even average digital camera's have nice video recorders on them..........
so you HAVE TO dO IT

Sounds like a nice weekend adventure, shots of old barns, cattle, a secret pond somewhere, a trail into the woods......

Hope you got the song to compliment a killer video!

Let us know when the opening is. I'll sneak the candy in.......
Old 22nd November 2009
  #325
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I like perfect music...who wants to listen to un-perfect music?
Perfection is subejective anyway and as some of you guys have expressed your unsatisfaction for "perfect" music then it renders it unperfect right?...for you that is.....so you should then in fact like it becasue its not perfect...see?
Old 22nd November 2009
  #326
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
. Their music sounds very 'raw' to me and unpolished, sometimes on the verge of 'mistake' and very raw mixed... if you listen to it analytically. But the music tends to go straight to your emotional core and sounds much more pure and genuine than most of todays overproduced stuff.
That's it. Just what you wrote, when the focus of what you are doing is on the music first, and the power of it's emotional sensation has been honered by keeping the process more genuine and honest, it's hard not to feel that. I've been recording music like that for awhile honestly, not that i'm not trying to nail the takes and get tight performances, but my mind and senses are more intuned with the feeling of the music, and less on picking apart any mistakes on playback. If the music is enchanting my spirit......I don't hear mistakes. I'm not retracking a guitar part if the feel of it moves me, but a few wrong notes where played.......to impress anyone or adhere to these new "rules" folks seem to be imprisoned by. Music these days is oviouslly geared more towards a perfectionist, gotta sound pro mentality, and less about a moment, which is what it really is.

I mean honestly, what do you want to listen to (not you boody, but people in general) , a new U2 record done on protools with all the fluff that goes with that approach, or to Jimi Hendrix in a room with alot of tube gear tracking to tape ...recording music on the fly, warts and all? Not so much comparing these artist, but the attitude and APProach to recording..... and the style of fidelity........as long as we are all agreeing that cleaner is not 'better" here.

Oviouslly taste will flucuate, but for me, I like to be able to hear what type of guitar someone is playing in a recording, and hear some shadows in the rooms. I like to hear the gear in a recording, but I don't want it to be the featured star of the sound. I want to hear an inspired human playing music with substance, that makes the art ......art. Anything less than that sounds like a photoshop image of a cheap tramp with a boob job to me ears and senses......."Is that even a REAL person?"
Old 22nd November 2009
  #327
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

The thing with actually good and powerful music is, it becomes very very difficult to stay in analytical headstate for more than a few bars as it pulls you away into emotion world. Even if you have trained ears and are trying to analyse it. And regardless what fidelity is involved. Now THAT is a proper recording to me, regardless what class of expensive sound it is built with. That's the whole point. Not some impressive sounding rubbish with no magic pull. Sorry....rant
Old 22nd November 2009
  #328
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
. Not some impressive sounding rubbish with no magic pull. Sorry....rant
thumbsup
I like the word rubbish.
No magic = no listen.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #329
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boody's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by missblaqoir View Post
I like perfect music...who wants to listen to un-perfect music?
Perfection is subejective anyway and as some of you guys have expressed your unsatisfaction for "perfect" music then it renders it unperfect right?...for you that is.....so you should then in fact like it becasue its not perfect...see?
that is about exactly the analytic reasoning I tried to describe heh

We strive for something 'good' so we correct the 'wrongs' in the process and get something perfect... like in: face lift, liposuction, botox, boop job... oops, where did the person go?
Old 22nd November 2009
  #330
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Karloff ,
I think it was you that I was talking to about the older 60's-70's European instrumental electronic music, the recording style and minimalistic feeling of it. How can 1 damn note sustained for 5 minutes with a shivering triangle wave playing a 3 note melody every 30 seconds have more to do with love than a Michael Bolton love letter?
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