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UnNatural Perfection (and the end of rock)
Old 19th November 2009
  #271
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Actually, This thread is about unnatural perfection, not record labels or piracy, but, somebody call AmtraK and tell them they may have a best friend over here, because this is derailed to the age old, fuuck the labels piracy argument,,,again.
dfegad
Old 19th November 2009
  #272
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
..What about all the great recordings that were made? People don't buy hi fi sets for them.
Actually they did and a few still do. Many don't listen to anything but vinyl from before the mid '60s.

Berry Gordy used to ask us "if you only had a dollar in your pocket for lunch, would you buy this record or a sandwich?" Our goal was to make a record that was good enough for that time to win out over a sandwich on an empty stomach. We managed to outsell all of the majors except the Beatles and we held our own with them all from our little home studio.

It seems that sandwiches and cappuccinos are winning the argument today for most people. This is an undeniable fact. All the rest of the rhetoric is making excuses.

The problem we need to solve is figuring out exactly what IS good enough for today. What's going to be OUR Harry Potter, i.e. our next Beatles, Eagles, Michael Jackson or Grandmaster Flash? I think the bar for quality, whatever that is, has never been higher. I can assure you this revolution won't be coming from the majors and probably won't be on the radio for a while. The package will probably look more like an LP than like a CD. It needs to make an awesome birthday present and a compelling, engaging ownership experience. Otherwise, what's the point?
Old 19th November 2009
  #273
But no one really has to make that choice anymore. If the song is free, you can get that and the sandwich, and so the real value of the song relative to the sandwich (or the whatever else) becomes indeterminate.
Old 19th November 2009
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
If the song is free, you can get that and the sandwich,...
You could back then. It was called the radio and they played the top 15 or 20 records that people in town were buying.

Obviously packaging must be compelling and file size must be inconvenient for something to be worth buying instead of downloading. It's a creative challenge.
Old 19th November 2009
  #275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You could back then. It was called the radio and they played the top 15 or 20 records that people in town were buying.

Obviously packaging must be compelling and file size must be inconvenient for something to be worth buying instead of downloading. It's a creative challenge.
You know perfectly well it's not the same. You can have the top 1000 records and listen to them any time you want.
Old 19th November 2009
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The problem we need to solve is figuring out exactly what IS good enough for today. What's going to be OUR Harry Potter, i.e. our next Beatles, Eagles, Michael Jackson or Grandmaster Flash? I think the bar for quality, whatever that is, has never been higher. I can assure you this revolution won't be coming from the majors and probably won't be on the radio for a while. The package will probably look more like an LP than like a CD. It needs to make an awesome birthday present and a compelling, engaging ownership experience. Otherwise, what's the point?
An album/video game...this is already happening isn't it? The Beatles and so on...I think some bands have put out music exclusively for Rock Band, haven't they?
Old 19th November 2009
  #277
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the nice thing about disconnecting music with monetary value is that all the shitty music made specifically to make money will disappear..... To me, music is worth way more that anything money could ever buy.....
Old 19th November 2009
  #278
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
the nice thing about disconnecting music with monetary value is that all the shitty music made specifically to make money will disappear..... To me, music is worth way more that anything money could ever buy.....
That's sounds nice until you remember that the people who make GOOD music also need to make a living at it.
Old 19th November 2009
  #279
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yea, it may be idealistic.... But, i still think its true. Most of the music i like to listen to is made out of a love for creating music. The people who write the songs and record them are dead BRoke!
Old 19th November 2009
  #280
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Unfortunately, i have made a lot of money over the years fixing bad musicianship.
I wish i made that money honestly recording & mixing more great new musicians.

I also have been blessed with working with some of the best artists ever, and there is a big difference in the work ethics i see.
i think we have become a "I want a key command to success" generation
Old 19th November 2009
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post

i think we have become a "I want a key command to success" generation

right.... there is an alarmingly large percentage of kids who when asked what they want to be when they grow up, say "a celebrity"... Its become a cultural trend... And believe me, i dont think theres anything wrong with making a buck or two in exchange for doing what you love.... I do however think that a musicians "intention" should be in the right place. And sadly, when the prospect of selling multi millions of records comes into play, maybee the "intention" gets misplaced.... BUt really... what do i know about the music industry.... NADA.
Old 19th November 2009
  #282
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
right.... there is an alarmingly large percentage of kids who when asked what they want to be when they grow up, say "a celebrity"... Its become a cultural trend... And believe me, i dont think theres anything wrong with making a buck or two in exchange for doing what you love.... I do however think that a musicians "intention" should be in the right place. And sadly, when the prospect of selling multi millions of records comes into play, maybee the "intention" gets misplaced.... BUt really... what do i know about the music industry.... NADA.
I kind of have to reject that on core grounds. All endeavors that create something really cool are creative, immersive jobs that you have to do because you really want to do something great. But no one is complaining about people in the hardware or software or other industries making money. Why is it only a corrupting influence in music? Why would you WANT musicians to be compensated in relation to how many people benefit from their records, so that, at some point in their careers, they can quite worrying about that and do something more adventurous. Starving artists probably have to worry a bit more about how to pay the rent next month.

It was in the 70s, when artists were being compensated very well for their effects if they were good, when we got the widest variety of popular music financially supported probably ever. Enough artists were bringing in enough money that they could afford to get a little more adventerous, and they would be allowed to by the folks fronting the money because there was a reasonable chance of getting a ROI, and even if one didn't do so well here and there, the area under the curve was still good.

So I think it's just wrong to somehow put a stigma on musicians for wanting to A) Get laid a lot B) get paid a lot. It's fair compensation if they are doing good work. And if they get bring enough loot consistently, they will have the gravitas to tell the labels to back off and let them do more stuff that they want, becasue they've already paid for the investment in them many times over and they should be allowed to take a few wild swings just to see if it works.


I do agree about the shallowness of wanting to be famous just for being famous of course. But that's another thing, and it's really not restricted to this decade or the last. It's been around for a while.
Old 19th November 2009
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Actually they did and a few still do. Many don't listen to anything but vinyl from before the mid '60s.
Yes, but those days are over now. The vinyl market is a niche market, though popular amongst some, but certainly not all, music lovers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Berry Gordy used to ask us "if you only had a dollar in your pocket for lunch, would you buy this record or a sandwich?" Our goal was to make a record that was good enough for that time to win out over a sandwich on an empty stomach. We managed to outsell all of the majors except the Beatles and we held our own with them all from our little home studio.

It seems that sandwiches and cappuccinos are winning the argument today for most people. This is an undeniable fact. All the rest of the rhetoric is making excuses.
That mentality is really running short nowadays. Somehow artists think it their right to be successful and when it doesn't happen they point fingers. But they see people seem to be having success without any talent (just loads of exposure) getting famous with poorly performed covers We can all learn from your example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The problem we need to solve is figuring out exactly what IS good enough for today. What's going to be OUR Harry Potter, i.e. our next Beatles, Eagles, Michael Jackson or Grandmaster Flash? I think the bar for quality, whatever that is, has never been higher. I can assure you this revolution won't be coming from the majors and probably won't be on the radio for a while. The package will probably look more like an LP than like a CD. It needs to make an awesome birthday present and a compelling, engaging ownership experience. Otherwise, what's the point?
Exciting times for sure. People (listeners) are definably 'spoiled' by all the great stuff that's already out there. Meanwhile, over here we bring stuff out ourselves on both cd and vinyl with nice packaging (we even used cans) and put stuff up on i-tunes as well. Fact is; it's a jungle out there and everybody is in need for some clarity.

To bring the whole thing back on topic: unnatural perfection and the end of rock. I see a lot of renewed appreciation for one take recordings (converted to this myself some years ago) and aversion against overly edited stuff, I see a lot of rock based music. I just don't see that reflected in the charts or media.
Old 19th November 2009
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
the nice thing about disconnecting music with monetary value is that all the shitty music made specifically to make money will disappear..... To me, music is worth way more that anything money could ever buy.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
yea, it may be idealistic.... But, i still think its true. Most of the music i like to listen to is made out of a love for creating music. The people who write the songs and record them are dead BRoke!
You may think it's true, but, the numbers tell a different story. There is more shitty music now that no one gets payed than EVER, by an unfathomably extreme measure.
There really is a running theme that to create art you have to be broke.
MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE thinking again.
The ONLY mutually exclusive position so far has been the "sandwich or a recording purchase" scenario.
What IS good enough IS the question and the answer does not line up on a grid or have totally dead on notes or sound like robots.
Old 19th November 2009
  #285
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
Yes, but those days are over now. The vinyl market is a niche market, though popular amongst some, but certainly not all, music lovers.
The record store was a niche market, the recording studio was a niche market, the band was a niche market, all of it, till Sam Walton came along.
What people forget to keep in context is that NONE OF THOSE FACTS HAVE CHANGED. Just because your country supports a bubble economy that swallows your industry does not mean you don't have one when the bubble pops. It's just invisible to most, in the immediate post bubble era, that the niche that existed before still exists after in the same numbers or greater. If you opened a mom & pop record store today you could be in business making money selling products for ten or more years.
The big chains killed mom & pop, now the big chains are dead, it's back to a niche, DON'T expect to get all the sales that the big box stores had at their heyday, it's square 1 again. You'll need to make sure you also purvey the truth and don't go for the throat in pricing, be fair. There's nothing stopping anyone from slagging on the big box stores.
Sell CD's, Vinyl, strings, sticks, picks, straps, maybe some beginner instruments, maybe pair up with an instrument store, posters, players, turntables, amps, speakers.
Do it on consignment for local builders. It ain't dead, it's just unserved.
Quote:
Exciting times for sure. People (listeners) are definably 'spoiled' by all the great stuff that's already out there. Meanwhile, over here we bring stuff out ourselves on both cd and vinyl with nice packaging (we even used cans) and put stuff up on i-tunes as well. Fact is; it's a jungle out there and everybody is in need for some clarity.

To bring the whole thing back on topic: unnatural perfection and the end of rock. I see a lot of renewed appreciation for one take recordings (converted to this myself some years ago) and aversion against overly edited stuff, I see a lot of rock based music. I just don't see that reflected in the charts or media.
Don't expect to until they get the idea that it's what people are buying and they don't have any for sale, till then, they'll slag you in hopes of killing your movement.
Old 19th November 2009
  #286
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

plenty of great music

I think the title of this thread is mostly accurate for commercial music, the things that get played on the radio and for the folks who show up to the MTV awards and whatnot. Although I feel that the 60's-80's ...even the 90's had a much bigger percentage of good popular music on the radio, that was a different time... my taste will always be 60's- 70's, because honestly, I think the art was just more interesting then.

And as much as I like to vent about how tacky modern times' taste (or popular cultures taste) is, it honestly hasn't affected the amount of killer music that's being made, or the artists' frame of mind. While Hollywood does their thing, PLENTY of dignified craftsmen are making paintings, music, poetry , movies , etc. without any concern who digs it or not, and if it's good, it WILL find it's way. Success IS the goal, but the style in which you get there......the ride....... should be graceful.

You keep cooking that food that makes your body and mind say" YOU GOT IT FRIEND", and let the rest of the world have their MCdonald's, they'll get tired of it, and if not .......so what, why do we care? All I need is a 1/2 dozen great places to eat where it's not crowded, the view is killer, and the people there are more concerned with fine things than what the rest of the world is wrapped up in. But deep down, you can't help but think,
"How can you eat that shit?" No need to loose sleep over it though.
Old 19th November 2009
  #287
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
"How can you eat that shit?"
lol
Old 19th November 2009
  #288
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ianbryn11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

So I think it's just wrong to somehow put a stigma on musicians for wanting to A) Get laid a lot B) get paid a lot. It's fair compensation if they are doing good work. And if they get bring enough loot consistently, they will have the gravitas to tell the labels to back off and let them do more stuff that they want, becasue they've already paid for the investment in them many times over and they should be allowed to take a few wild swings just to see if it works.
I agree... in our society, financial freedom can lead to artistic freedom to some extent. And i'm not trying to devalue anyones desire to A) get laid a lot or B) get paid alot.... Both good things... Just trying to say that if the music is good, both those things will happen as a natural result. ANd the first order of buisiness should be, making good music.

And for what its worth, i think making music is differnet that other jobs. Music is something that touches upon the most basic fundamentals of human nature and life in general. It touches on the root of things... String theory, vibrations and the flow of energy.
Old 19th November 2009
  #289
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

I got my assh flamed off for saying that two years ago.
Old 20th November 2009
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
my taste will always be 60's- 70's, because honestly, I think the art was just more interesting then.
I don't agree. I think it's just less visible these days.
Old 20th November 2009
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
I don't agree. I think it's just less visible these days.
What good is invisible art?
Old 20th November 2009
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
What good is invisible art?
I have a house FULL of invisible art. I'd show it to you, but, you can't see it, in fact, I can't find it.




Invisible art is fantastic if everyone knows that the sought after artist has released another tune but, no one seems to lay their hands on it unless they go to certain outlet and any and all internet copies are traced to find pirates.
Old 20th November 2009
  #293
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I have a house FULL of invisible art. I'd show it to you, but, you can't see it, in fact, I can't find it.


LOL... "Now THAT'S transparency" .................
Old 20th November 2009
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
I don't agree. I think it's just less visible these days.
My interest is still high, and I haven't stopped looking.
Old 20th November 2009
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I got my assh flamed off for saying that two years ago.
I guess i got off easy... lol... i do think it relates directly to the original subject of this thread. Unnatural perfection.... music not reflecting reality... but like someone said earlier, sometimes reality happens in your head..... Nothing wrong with striving to attain those sounds....
Old 20th November 2009
  #296
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boody's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
What good is invisible art?
Since when was music ever visible? Ah, sure on the computer where we can visually set it straight

I'm Dutch, so maybe I used the wrong expression... less exposed better?
Old 20th November 2009
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
My interest is still high, and I haven't stopped looking.
I can tell, your passionate about it. And though there's a lot of arguing, I think that's what all posters here have in common. That passion can save our musical future.
Old 20th November 2009
  #298
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I've looked on internet radio, not much worth singing in the shower to.
Nothing catchy that gets stuck in my head, no infectious grooves, no themes beyond petty self deprication or disingenuous "save the world" junk. Tizzy top end reigns. I kinda miss dense mixes where something would just peek through in a 3-d soundscape, Doesn't have to reflect reality, it could be surreal, but, nothing stirs my soul, small playlists. Instead of burning the tunes in it's burning me out.
I like, organic rock, salsa, reggae, soucous, ska, acoustic folk, funk, blues, jazz, tribal, Indian, orchestral, a electronica ll kinds, it's not like I'm not "the broad side of the barn", something should hit me, but, nothing in pop, some in folk, jazz (but that "doesn't count"), I'm trying to hear rock music that does something more than just lay there.
It just doesn't poke through. I know some is out there, but, it's not poking through.
Old 20th November 2009
  #299
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
I kinda miss dense mixes where something would just peek through in a 3-d soundscape, Doesn't have to reflect reality, it could be surreal, It just doesn't poke through. I know some is out there, but, it's not poking through.
I totally understand what you mean. That's actually what I thrive for in my music/mixes. Even as enlightened as alot of my friends are, their ears still want to hear that mix where everything has it's place, and sits nicely, but nothing ever peaks it's head up over the fence, ya know. I understand, it's certainly what most folks are into, but to give your tracks life, there needs to be (for me) a little less glue, a longer leash, where the music resembles more of a horse race where you see things moving up and down, front to back .....a juggling of postioning ...it's more 3D than it is wide with everything carved out.

Very UN- Steelydan of me I know, but I like the excitement of how things get tumbling. For YEARS I was possessed with the sound of The Royal Scam, and then later, Rumours by the wonderful FM. BuT I feel as though I've even moved on from that too, for something more specific vibe/mojo wise, but less realised in the sense of finality.......... exciting sketches that sound good, but aren't reworked to sound polished maybe??

What's interesting is that now I'm most concerned with peformances, and the feeling of going for it, I'LL even leave in mistakes (as long as they don't resemble the chalkboard scrape.... ouch!.) if I think they have real momentum. The days of putting the idea of a "pro sound" as the number one goal are over (for me).Not that I'm on some lo-fi or don't get a damn parade, but what I listen for now is SO different than when I first got into doing this stuff. Getting the chills, being freaked out, bewilderment, scared, enchanted , uncertain, overjoyed , etc.....are the things that excite me about music these days. Anything less has no power.

Tight/great mixes with punch that don't contain any of the above don't even touch my senses. My taste have gotten way more specific, not in styles of music, but in the style of the enchantment it provides.

Oh boy, only one cup of coffee and I'm already letting it out.
Well, it IS FRIDAY!! lol..

Steelyfan
Old 20th November 2009
  #300
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
...I'm trying to hear rock music that does something more than just lay there. It just doesn't poke through. I know some is out there, but, it's not poking through.

How much of this is because you're no longer the impressionable youngster you once were? The parts of you that were once open to being molded and impacted by outside forces have closed off, become less sensitive, less impressed by what anybody does because you're so deep on the inside of music and production that you know its secrets, the mystery is not a mystery, you can do it yourself at least as well?

I think it's a natural consequence of growing older, we just don't have the hormones that drive us to attend concerts, scream with our entire bodies, and pump our fists in the air. We can maybe generate that kind of energy for music that's already patterned itself in our emotional cortex when we were younger, but now... not so much.

How much of the rest of your life is 'poking thru'? New adventures, big risks, new relationships and love, everything seeming like the end of the world when it doesn't go your way? My guess is simply by maturing and becoming an adult, mastering the art of managing the world, some aspects by definition cannot burrow into you in the same ways anymore.


Gregory Scott - ubk
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