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I call BS! 70's style drums sound IS possible on a DAW Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 22nd November 2009
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.d.finley View Post
And theres the problem. The above is what you think of '70s drums.
I think Led Zeppelin, Nazareth, Montrose, Pink Floyd and even Funkadelic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magus888 View Post
I detect a Jazz hater!
I'm pretty sure you're kidding but Finley has a point. And I'm in no way any kind of jazz hater. Among the jazzers I've seen were Louis Amstrong, Ellington, Kenton, Herman, Brubeck, Szabo, Pass, Dave Pike, Roland Kirk, Betty Carter, Horace Tapscott... and I've seen a few fusion bands, Mahivishnu, Nels Cline's post-fusion stuff, and buckets of cookie cutter 70s fusion stuff -- they were pumping it out like it was going out of style (oh wait) back in the 70s.

Me, I'm not hearing the drum sounds I liked in the 70s in that clip; but everyone's mileage, indeed, varies.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #62
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Well I just finished an Old Time Western Swing record on my DAW and mixingdesk. I´m really surprised about the results and autentic 1920-30ties sound.
With that said I´m totally sure the 70 ties sound can be recreated.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I'm pretty sure you're kidding but Finley has a point.
Yes, I was just making a funny.

Since posting this clip I've A/B'd it with a few choice 70's tunes, and I understand what you guys are saying.

I wasn't trying to achieve the 70's sound from the get go. I just did a quick 1 mic setup for drum practice only. I always record my practices. When I listened to the playback I was surprised at how decent it sounded, so I slapped some quick verb on it, ran it through the pl-2, and posted it up here!

I'm sure if I had "recording the 70's sound" in mind, next time I could achieve more desirable results.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #64
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Has anyone ever captured the sound of another time where it really sounded like that time?

I don't think I've ever heard it ever.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
As anyone ever captured the sound of another time where it really sounded like that time?

I don't think I've ever heard it ever.

Here's a cover of the Cream classic "Sunshine of Your Love" that I did for a group in 2003, which would be, oh, a good thirty-five years after the fact?

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download Sunshine of Your Love -- Black River.mp3
Old 23rd November 2009
  #66
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Here's a cover of the Cream classic "Sunshine of Your Love" that I did for a group in 2003, which would be, oh, a good thirty-five years after the fact?

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download Sunshine of Your Love -- Black River.mp3
dude i can never understand ..and i know this is a lossy file

why the fawk digital can't capture distorted gtr..

as much as tape rounds off the jizz and makes it better when overdriven..it doesn't come out of the amp sounding like the fuzz that digital puts on it.even the cd of sunshine has the jizz compared to vinyl..although the gold 30 dollar cd does sound a better than the reg one

it's a real mystery i'd like to understand..is a distorted gtr that much more complex that all other sounds because what dig does to it is the most noticeable

i think an answer is somewhere between physics and psychoacoustics..probably an interesting thread

nice vibe and take on the song bro
Old 23rd November 2009
  #67
Distorted guitar meets its match or something with digital, I'd guess-- the digital medium just needs to break it into its component nuclei and lose the whole true "distortion," it renders "distortion" as a discrete assembly of perfectly formed little shards of sound, not the "graaaabbbbbrrrrrzzzzzhhhhh" sound we think of as a crunching guitar.

Or, another way to say it: I have no idea.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #68
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Distorted guitar meets its match or something with digital, I'd guess-- the digital medium just needs to break it into its component nuclei and lose the whole true "distortion," it renders "distortion" as a discrete assembly of perfectly formed little shards of sound, not the "graaaabbbbbrrrrrzzzzzhhhhh" sound we think of as a crunching guitar.

Or, another way to say it: I have no idea.
i know ..def agree

on another note [badummmb] what amp did you have the bass coming out of..the distortion on that was great
Old 23rd November 2009
  #69
Amp for the bass... amp for the bass.... it's no slight exaggeration to say I remember practically nothing from that session, except that Billy Gilbert was the guitarist/singer... and I always strive to make people feel comfortable and not stare at them during a performance... but i was interested to see what kind of facial expressions and stuff was going on during his wild solo, so I snuck a peek only to find him listlessly gazing off into the distance, not even really paying attention, it seemed... and I had the embarrassing moment of meeting the drummer and he was all glad to be back again, and for the life of me I couldn't remember ever seeing him before-- it's like that sometimes, Mike I'm sure you know what I'm saying, you can spend a day working with someone that they just don't have enough of a personality to register, so then you you try to mumble your way out of it, "Oh! Yeah! You! You were, uh, you had a different shirt on that time, oh of course...."

I get the feeling the bass was DI'd through my trusty Art Dual MP, which is my bass tracking drug of choice that I still use to this day. Or was there a bass amp... hmmmm....
Old 23rd November 2009
  #70
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by magus888 View Post
When I listened to the playback I was surprised at how decent it sounded...

Most people are when they first start exploring minimal mic'ing.

In general, less mics = bigger sound.

Less sounds = bigger mix.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #71
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This is what I assume people imply when they say "70's drum sound":









And then you move into something more like this

http://www.lala.com/#song/504684652369965008

("Aufu Oodu"; "Salongo", "Slick")

http://www.lala.com/#song/360569488119477164

http://www.lala.com/#album/432627039...n/By_All_Means


This is early 70's to about 1982. '76-'82 is "sonically" different; and I would
consider that the change directly correlates to improving technology (less noise).

The recording techniques were the same and have been discussed here (perhaps more mics as you move ahead toward the end of the decade).

I would consider Zeppelin a sound of it's own. And I hope that if someone asked
for that sound, they meant the production (three mic's, out of phase, echoplex, large room), otherwise, it would be pretty hard to hire Bonham as a session drummer, seeing that he's deceased and all.

All the Fleetwood Mac, Steely Dan, and Disco sounds fit in the latter examples I presented.

However, some youngsters might say something they don't mean, and it would be best to ask for an example.

They might mean this:



Which most of us would clearly associate with one of the many late '60's sounds.

Approximating early 70's is a fairly reasonable effort.
However, for the slick stuff, I'd rent out one of the facilities that was around during that time. Notice a lack of "low mid build up". These studios don't simply have "dead" rooms, they have very finely tuned dead rooms (or areas in the live room).

Repeat after me: "Sympathetic drumming".

You start with the drummer. To perform a funky polyrhythmic offshoot of
rock drumming, you need to play lightly in order to "sing" dynamically.

You use a real snare drum; none of this nu-metal chug-hardcore soprano nonsense.
Kick is dampened. Some say use a small kick drum tuned up. Sure, I suppose.
However it sounds as if Dougie Wright used a rather large shell (possibly un-dampened) on the Melody Nelson album someone brought up in a similar thread.
It certainly appears to be the case with the Beck knockoff that the same
thread referred to.

You could dampen the snare and toms; however, I don't really see this
as a requisite. Maybe some moon-gel.

Cigarette packs are a joke. And have you ever really heard
a 70's record that sounded like someone put t-shirts over the skins?
If you are familiar with drums, and familiar with noise; I'm sure you can
see why these don't fit together so well.

It's safe to bring the overheads down, very close to the kit.
It's common to have an inside kick mic, alone, or very little outside kick.
Experiment with mono versus stereo overheads (obviously, half those recordings
had mono drums at the start of the decade). Mic the snare to your discretion (or don't).

While recording; I'm certain you have discrete solid state pre-amps and
Urei products and maybe things with early op-amps. Toy and tinker.

When mixing, experiment with running things through moog low-pass filter pedals,
tape echos on bypass; furman rv-1's as a go to eq.... Super serial.

When I hear these recordings, I think: early solid-state. early op-amps. distortion. noise. lots of filtering (and comb-filtering as resultant) to combat the noise.

As for the slick stuff; I'm sure someone else can chime in.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Here's a cover of the Cream classic "Sunshine of Your Love" that I did for a group in 2003, which would be, oh, a good thirty-five years after the fact?

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download Sunshine of Your Love -- Black River.mp3
Pretty good (except the singing )...definitely has the musical feel and overall general vibe...

but the sound is really different...

the vocal in the original especially has that fantastic and unmistakable retro flavor...

Old 23rd November 2009
  #73
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Sigma's Avatar
somewhere in the archieves is a post were i did a full breakdown of the drums from our studio
Old 23rd November 2009
  #74
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YetiHunter's Avatar
 

Quote:
In general, less mics = bigger sound.

Less sounds = bigger mix.


Gregory Scott - ubk
You would think everyone would understand this; however,
I've heard plenty of major or somewhat-major mixes
that failed at the hands of an engineer who didn't quite
get the principle that mixing (an recording) is, by nature, a subtractive effort.

I've witnessed a couple overdub sessions where the rhythm guitar track count
was in the thirties.

The recording engineer and the mixing engineer were the same man, in both cases.

Both records sounded like they were 20 miles away.

I should be nice and note that the musicians were part culprit in this madness.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #75
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiHunter View Post
You would think everyone would understand this; however,
I've heard plenty of major or somewhat-major mixes
that failed at the hands of an engineer who didn't quite
get the principle that mixing (an recording) is, by nature, a subtractive effort.

I've witnessed a couple overdub sessions where the rhythm guitar track count
was in the thirties.

The recording engineer and the mixing engineer were the same man, in both cases.

Both records sounded like they were 20 miles away.

I should be nice and note that the musicians were part culprit in this madness.
i brought this up about how during the 70's mixes got smaller compared to the 60's
Old 23rd November 2009
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiHunter View Post
This is what I assume people imply when they say "70's drum sound":


The actual track...the same...yet different! ...the vocal again, too, just an unmistakable sound...the reverb...so sweet...

Old 23rd November 2009
  #77
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I could certainly agree with you on that.
Especially those Disco records where the instrumentation was
often "everything at once".

Arrangement is our best friend.

Layering 30 guitar tracks (all "doubles") is quite superfluous and
a different story, all together.

Please, no one bring up Dennis Coffey.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #78
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Here is the complete opposite of what I'm ragging about.
Certainly, there is a lot of depth and a large space;
we will ignore that. I'm focusing on the fact that it is pop music with
large instrumentation; however, well arranged.

If everything was close mic'd and they weren't going for a "concert hall sound",
I'm certain the mix could feel large and upfront if one had those inclinations:



When a producer or engineer develops a keen sense of arrangement and manages to apply those concepts to recording and mixing.....

Anyway, I think I'm derailing this thread, so, goodnight.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #79
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by magus888 View Post
Everyone in this forum seems to think you can't obtain a 70's style drum sound with a DAW.

Here's a quick drum beat I was working on. It's a little excerpt taken from 2 minutes of the same beat. I started getting off. Here's the best 30 seconds of it.
Huh?


That sounds like a low bit drum machine.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Huh?


That sounds like a low bit drum machine.
If you're saying my timing sounds like a machine, I guess I should take that as a complement.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #81
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiHunter View Post
Anyway, I think I'm derailing this thread, so, goodnight.

Au contrére, I think you're bringing the discussion to an interesting and new place. The original thread pretty much derailed when o.p. went from a bold title declaring bull**** on us all and claiming to have captured the 70's drum sound on a daw, to a post where he says he wasn't being serious, he wasn't trying for it anyway, but if he had tried for it he's sure he could've gotten it.

I was listening to those youtube clips on my imac speakers as I sip morning coffee. Aside from being astonished (yet again) at the ease with which that era of players managed to simply 'touch' their instruments to produce sounds that drop effortlessly into a greasy pocket, I am struck anew at how the production truly captured the vibe, the groove, the softness and gentleness of the funk.

When I hear music today that professes to be 'funk', what I inevitably hear is not 'funk music', it's 'funky music.' It does not have the darker tonality, the laid back ease, the melancholy undercurrent of suffering that flows thru and colors the celebratory rhythms. What I hear today is glossy, overly bright and shiny, too much cheesy swing, too many syncopated ghost notes on the snare and kick. Zero call-and-response, no sharp stabs of soulful rhythm followed by an equally meaningful silence or breath in the melodic arrangement.

Production and timbre and mix aesthetic is, imho, completely inseparable from the mood, mystique, and power of the music. Everyone here always talks about the supremacy of the player, the song, the arrangement, and those are indeed every bit as critical, they are indispensible. But the sound of saturated tape, the utter lack of hf air and subby bottom, the boxy lower mids, the soft undermixed presence, the dryness of it all... these things are also an ineffable part of the expression and voice of this period in music.

Every style has, imo, an instrumentation and a production vibe which will maximize the power and authenticity of the statement being made by the humans involved in generating the sounds. Any thread on the 70's will be full of guys wistfully pining for the vibe of the era, which to me is synonymous with the sound as well as the songs, but nobody is drying up their rooms, nobody is dialing their high shelf backwards, nobody is properly acknowledging the role of tape in the sound, everybody is compressing too much, everybody is glossing up the model until she gleams like 2009...

I can't tell if people simply lack the ears to dial the sound, or if people lack the courage to follow their hearts, or if something else is going on. But this era, we keep coming back to it in conversation, but I don't see enough of a real push to reconnect with it, to cull its essence and restore at least some of its beauty to the landscape.

Is anyone else interested in making a mission out of this?


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #82
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YetiHunter's Avatar
 

Quote:
Production and timbre and mix aesthetic is, imho, completely inseparable from the mood, mystique, and power of the music. Everyone here always talks about the supremacy of the player, the song, the arrangement, and those are indeed every bit as critical, they are indispensible. But the sound of saturated tape, the utter lack of hf air and subby bottom, the boxy lower mids, the soft undermixed presence, the dryness of it all... these things are also an ineffable part of the expression and voice of this period in music.

Every style has, imo, an instrumentation and a production vibe which will maximize the power and authenticity of the statement being made by the humans involved in generating the sounds. Any thread on the 70's will be full of guys wistfully pining for the vibe of the era, which to me is synonymous with the sound as well as the songs, but nobody is drying up their rooms, nobody is dialing their high shelf backwards, nobody is properly acknowledging the role of tape in the sound, everybody is compressing too much, everybody is glossing up the model until she gleams like 2009...

I can't tell if people simply lack the ears to dial the sound, or if people lack the courage to follow their hearts, or if something else is going on. But this era, we keep coming back to it in conversation, but I don't see enough of a real push to reconnect with it, to cull its essence and restore at least some of its beauty to the landscape.

Is anyone else interested in making a mission out of this?

Give me time, man. I'm doing it right the first time.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #83
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dudeitsree's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbsg02 View Post
Midlake has some pretty 70's sounding drums on their last record, done digitally
Yea, There records sound great. They Use RADAR with and old Soundcraft console. Cool guys too, I played a gig with one of the guitar players.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Is anyone else interested in making a mission out of this?

Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Dude, i'm trying! I really am. You sum it up very well. I hear all these things certainly. I haven't found a drummer locally that can pull it off, and my room isn't finished or there yet. I'm only 28 so I have the time to achieve this. My ears are certainly getting to know what i want, and I'm using the "backwards high shelf" judiciously which helps immensely.

Closest i have heard more recently to getting not just that sound, but the overall feel of the recordings is Wilco's "Sky Blue Sky" album. I highly recomend this album on all fronts:

YouTube - Wilco - Either Way

YouTube - Martin Wolf Wagner & Wilco

Russell
Old 23rd November 2009
  #85
Old 24th November 2009
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Any thread on the 70's will be full of guys wistfully pining for the vibe of the era, which to me is synonymous with the sound as well as the songs, but nobody is drying up their rooms, nobody is dialing their high shelf backwards, nobody is properly acknowledging the role of tape in the sound, everybody is compressing too much, everybody is glossing up the model until she gleams like 2009...

I can't tell if people simply lack the ears to dial the sound, or if people lack the courage to follow their hearts, or if something else is going on. But this era, we keep coming back to it in conversation, but I don't see enough of a real push to reconnect with it, to cull its essence and restore at least some of its beauty to the landscape.

.
It's a lot to ask? And maybe pointless? And perhaps impossible?

After all...in the 70s, any musician anywhere could pull on their bell bottoms, take a hit off their bong, go down to the music store, get whatever gear they had, or go into any studio...and boom, they are making 70s music with a 70s sound...all they had to do after that was the easy part...write a classic song like Rock Me Gently or The Night Chicago Died...

Whereas if they wanted to get the authentic sound of, say, Sinatra from decades past....the songs, the arrangements, the vocal sound, the orchestral sound....they'd probably just think, "****, where's my bong...."





Old 24th November 2009
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
It's a lot to ask?

It is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
And maybe pointless?

Maybe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
And perhaps impossible?

Perhaps.

Still, I reckon I'm on a mission. Care to join me?


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Old 24th November 2009
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
It is.





Maybe.





Perhaps.

Still, I reckon I'm on a mission. Care to join me?


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
Okay, damn it, I'm in...

I've got the bell bottoms and the bong...
Old 24th November 2009
  #89
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post












Still, I reckon I'm on a mission. Care to join me?


Gregory Scott - ubk
.
yEA. I'm in too.
I'll try to post something up soon.
Old 24th November 2009
  #90
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Take a break guys;

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