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Clarity and depth of the 70's vs DAW and hard drive: Is it possible... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 10th November 2009
  #151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Yes but I have proof! heh
Some facts are just probably too powerful for most people to accept. That may be one of them. And a BC Rich as well. You was da ladi killa.
Old 10th November 2009
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
And definitely proof it's not an issue of sonic quality:

YouTube - OH BABY LOVE - Mothers Finest

Even taking into account the Youtube quality, even I could probably do that well in terms of sonics. I assume it was probably recorded in some moderate studio in Atlanta, since that's where they are from, and probably on a pretty small budget since they were mostly a regional band? But it kicks serious butt. What a great song for a bass player. Simple, but The Thumb of God.
Friggin awesome Dean , i forgot how great this music is, i think if someone where to record this song in this era , with the more in your face engineering done now, this song would of lost it's Mojo
Old 10th November 2009
  #153
Gear Addict
I've been trying to figure out what it is that makes vinyl sound appealing while I struggle to accept the fact that pristine CDs sound flat...it may be the analog signal path, gain structure and the fact that the audio is a continuous wave form vs. ones & zeros that are a "step" waveform that are converted to analog...maybe there is something to those grooves on the vinyl representing audio vs. the ones & zeros on a CD...I love recording digitally, but I equally love studying LPs for there aural texture...is there a vinylizer VST plug-in (or is that the "tape saturation" plugs)...this is a deep thread...I guess I should also state that I never thought cassette tapes gave me as much of a rush as vinyl...
Old 10th November 2009
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Studiodawg View Post
I've been trying to figure out what it is that makes vinyl sound appealing while I struggle to accept the fact that pristine CDs sound flat...it may be the analog signal path, gain structure and the fact that the audio is a continuous wave form vs. ones & zeros that are a "step" waveform that are converted to analog...maybe there is something to those grooves on the vinyl representing audio vs. the ones & zeros on a CD...
It may also be the CD player itself. Switching to a Studer CD player was a total revelation for me, basically a day and night difference to all the cheap players I used before.

It just seems to me that this is never really being discussed, everybody knows how big teh difference a great turntable can make but with CD players its mostly a 'it's all digital anyway' mentality.
Old 10th November 2009
  #155
Gear Addict
good point regarding the cd player...makes me realize why i like to import cd audio into my daw to listen to it with my lynx sound card...
Old 10th November 2009
  #156
N88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
It may also be the CD player itself. Switching to a Studer CD player was a total revelation for me, basically a day and night difference to all the cheap players I used before.

It just seems to me that this is never really being discussed, everybody knows how big teh difference a great turntable can make but with CD players its mostly a 'it's all digital anyway' mentality.
Good thought.

I remember buying a nice portable CD player with a graphic equalizer for my ex-wife years ago, and thinking these things were getting decent. When I went to get one for myself a few years later, I was saddened to find the new generation of players had gone in the complete opposite direction, away from getting better to just being disposable. No-one even made a more expensive, quality model.
Old 10th November 2009
  #157
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Cheap CD players have cheap converters. For as much excitement surrounding high end D/A converters as there is on these forums you would think people would catch on that not all CD players are created equally.

My CD player has a tube output stage...sounds awesome and somewhat vinyl like:

Njoe Tjoeb 4000

Brad
Old 10th November 2009
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
It may also be the CD player itself. Switching to a Studer CD player was a total revelation for me, basically a day and night difference to all the cheap players I used before.

It just seems to me that this is never really being discussed, everybody knows how big teh difference a great turntable can make but with CD players its mostly a 'it's all digital anyway' mentality.

So true but who can afford a CD player like this Aurum Acoustics Integris CDP Review - Audio Ideas Guide
Old 11th November 2009
  #159
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5down1up's Avatar
 

so many studios, so many talented people, WTF is the real problem ???
Old 11th November 2009
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5down1up View Post
so many studios, so many talented people, WTF is the real problem ???
fear. as ever.
Old 11th November 2009
  #161
Gear Head
 

In case you guys missed it, there's a very enightening and important thread here on how to get a more analog sound from your DAW, entitled The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes.
Old 11th November 2009
  #162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studiodawg View Post
I've been trying to figure out what it is that makes vinyl sound appealing while I struggle to accept the fact that pristine CDs sound flat...
there's no roll off in digital... vinyl has roll off above 20k, that effects what your hear below 20k...
Old 11th November 2009
  #163
the 70's ruled back then thats how u could tell a great performer now a days people can do whatever even if u suck major . dont flame me on this this is just my opinion.
anyways just my 2 cents
Old 11th November 2009
  #164
Old 11th November 2009
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magus888 View Post
Eh? A single solo drum track doesn't really constitute proof IMO... sounds good though!
Old 11th November 2009
  #166
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios View Post
there's no roll off in digital... vinyl has roll off above 20k, that effects what your hear below 20k...
16k in fact !!
Old 11th November 2009
  #167
Motown legend
 
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Vinyl actually rolls off around 15k due to the geometry of the cutting stylus. The limitation of vinyl is skipping. The two most common causes of skipping are excessive low frequencies and excessive high frequency distortion.

Brickwalling costs you level in vinyl because of the latter so nobody did it.
Old 11th November 2009
  #168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Vinyl actually rolls off around 15k due to the geometry of the cutting stylus. The limitation of vinyl is skipping. The two most common causes of skipping are excessive low frequencies and excessive high frequency distortion.

Brickwalling costs you level in vinyl because of the latter so nobody did it.
my point being - and perhaps I'm wrong - is that on vinyl/analog there's no hard truncation of frequencies (high or low) - so there are harmonics in the roll off that effect what you are hearing in the audible listening range.
Old 11th November 2009
  #169
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I'm not sure you can generalize.
Old 11th November 2009
  #170
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fossaree's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
First off, great arrangers have been MIA for over 30 years especially since MIDI became common.

Recording also made much greater demands on musicians when you didn't have all of the fix it technology. It meant people simply needed to perform better. As a result, they got good takes faster with a lot more of a gut response to the song involved instead of the amount of conceptual over-thinking that has become common.

I honestly believe that you could hook a DAW up to a console in 1972 and make just as good of a recording so long as you used the same performers, arrangers and decisive production procedure.
this is music to my ears
;-)
Old 11th November 2009
  #171
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The Listener's Avatar
Do those two songs sound 70's to you?

song 1

song 2
Old 11th November 2009
  #172
Gear Addict
Another vital component in the aesthetics in question is that for vinyl we could liberally turn up the volume without impending brickwalled brashness. Turning up the volume of "modern" dynamically challenged loudness wars recordings is a situation where I find myself wondering why I can't turn it up past two while I can easily turn the vinyl recording up to five...good point regarding no brickwalling in vinyl Bob...
Old 11th November 2009
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
Do those two songs sound 70's to you?

song 1

song 2
To me? No.
Old 11th November 2009
  #174
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Vinyl actually rolls off around 15k due to the geometry of the cutting stylus. The limitation of vinyl is skipping. The two most common causes of skipping are excessive low frequencies and excessive high frequency distortion.

Brickwalling costs you level in vinyl because of the latter so nobody did it.
exactmemente.... and you'd know... having cut a few eh?
Old 12th November 2009
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
Do those two songs sound 70's to you?

song 1

song 2
Cool music, and the recordings are good. A bit crisp for a 70's sound to me, almost like you need more glue and less clarity....... a little more grain in the middle. But those recordings are great man. Tell you what, you're sorta beyond a 70's production sound (if this is your music/recording ??) , sounds more modern. If you wanted a 70's sound, I would cut some of the highend on both those mixes and bounce them to an average 4 track tapoe recorder. I bet you'd be golden then. It's amazing how some things end up, and how impractical some of the processes to get there are.

Nice work, and some tight performances. Dig the guitar players fuzz sound. The darker sounding crash cymbal in the first track is gorgeous sounding.

Steely
Old 12th November 2009
  #176
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
Do those two songs sound 70's to you?

song 1

song 2
I just listened to these. The songwriting may have a 70's influence but the sound is very modern and very clean sounding to my ears. It's very well recorded--good job.

Brad
Old 12th November 2009
  #177
Gear Maniac
 

I didn't read the whole thread but wanted to offer Stevie Wonder as an example of an artist who I think achieved great clarity and depth in his recordings in the early 70's. I personally love the recordings of Superstition and Higher Ground and they only sound better to me as I turn them up. The extent to which this has to do with the arrangements, the room(s), the performances, the gear used, the available technologies and the people involved is of course debatable.

I had to throw some props over in his direction. Those recordings rock my world.
Old 12th November 2009
  #178
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltemma74 View Post
I didn't read the whole thread but wanted to offer Stevie Wonder as an example of an artist who I think achieved great clarity and depth in his recordings in the early 70's. I personally love the recordings of Superstition and Higher Ground and they only sound better to me as I turn them up. The extent to which this has to do with the arrangements, the room(s), the performances, the gear used, the available technologies and the people involved is of course debatable.

I had to throw some props over in his direction. Those recordings rock my world.
And weren't some of those mostly just him overdubbing over himself? I.e. the antithesis of how the 70's vibe was supposedly largely different from the modern vibe, e.g. live musicians playing together in the room.
Old 12th November 2009
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
Cool music, and the recordings are good. A bit crisp for a 70's sound to me, almost like you need more glue and less clarity....... a little more grain in the middle. But those recordings are great man. Tell you what, you're sorta beyond a 70's production sound (if this is your music/recording ??) , sounds more modern. If you wanted a 70's sound, I would cut some of the highend on both those mixes and bounce them to an average 4 track tapoe recorder. I bet you'd be golden then. It's amazing how some things end up, and how impractical some of the processes to get there are.

Nice work, and some tight performances. Dig the guitar players fuzz sound. The darker sounding crash cymbal in the first track is gorgeous sounding.

Steely
The story behind those songs and the rest of this album (published by the literary/music label Sanje: Sanje podob - Zmajev rep) is this;

This band (also my friends and collaborators from other projects) started some years ago as an interesting hard rock band with a rather funny fusion twist and transformed into a rather retro sounding jazz-rock band with a heavy 70's flair - especially when they play life. They have this sound life - even fuller, very much "vintage" - they of course use good instruments and amps from the 60s, 70s, Rhodes is a real vintage one, etc.

They recorded themselves in the kitchen of one collegues house, where they practice and only asked for some little advice how to do it. They used what they had - some songs even don't use a real kick mic, but a 57... Shure 58 and 57 are all over the place - guitar amp, even overheads are 58's...
Bass was direct and synths were partly VST instruments - some Arturia or something and some cheezy digital synth recorded through amp.

The key is - they played everything life - no big editing, no overdubs, not even combining different takes - only a couple of minor cuts and pastes were done and one bass solo overdubbed in one song, because the bass player played also another bass line, accompanying the solo...

It was done on an M-audio 1814 interface and additional Yamaha or Mackie (I don't know exactly) mixer.

Another key - the arrangements are sparse - only what the four of them could play life, so there is enough room in the music.

When I got the recordings they sounded like an average demo, but with really nice and good playing - for my taste. They also deliberately went for the vibe - took time at their home and chose the take that they all felt had some mojo.

It could be mixed in a way that would sound like any other crappy home recording demo, but I fortunately knew how they sounded life... and had a vision of a bit lo-fi psych fusion 70's sound like the Bitches Brew by Miles Davis.

I listened extensively to that record and used it as a direct comparison to what I was doing while mixing... I only chose to have more bass, because that's what they also wanted...

I started that project at a time when I just purchased UAD Neve EQs and I freaked out with them - they are all over this album... i was thanking God for sending those EQs my way, because I could do what I had in mind for this band. The kick would not come to life without 1081.

The only HW I used was a real Roland Space Echo that I subtly used on guitars, keys, synts, almost everything...

I also used some Nuendo flanger, phasers, UAD Chorus, etc.

I was frustrated because all the mixes turned out too clean, I was first restoring the "demo" quality of the original mixes and when I got the sound right to my ears I started "downgrading" them to make them sound more "analog" and "vibey", I put a lot attention to the groove and balance - how drums and bass interlocked, I did heavy surgery to get a grooving kick, which was almost non-existant in the raw recording.

I observed how some solo instruments jumped out and "flew" over the base groove on Bitches Brew - I emulated that and made synths sometime jump over everything in solos, I also used short doubling reverb to "stereoize" some synth lines, because all that gave some more "dimension" to the original very "linear" sounding recordings that had no depth whatsoever... I learned that placing instruments in very different loudness ranges is a key to make an illusion of depth... I tried to impart some more space with using Space echo's delays and spring reverb and I also "analogized" the cheezy synths with much processing - most helpfully with plug-in Korg MS-20 filter, which worked wonderfully.

So, yes, it is too clean for 70's, I also had no tape then, If I would - I could probably get even closer to THAT vibe... And also later I purchased the UAD Helios EQ, which could be also very helpful to get more "dirty" sounds...

BTW - with this process I noticed how "sculpturing" friendly the Shure 57/58 recordings are... You get an average sound from them, but you can do almost anything in post-production with that.

I guess much of the 70's thing is the vibe of the era, life playing, analog equipment and tape. It doesn't sound "hi-fi" to me, but it has depth of its special sort.

It can be approached also with the DAW, although I am sure many will jump now and see all the shortcomings of those songs that are "not even close", etc. But remember - those are lo-fi demo recordings brought up to live and imparted some quasi 70's vibe. I am sure that if you approach it seriously with good gear from the start, there is no reason why you couln't do it today. The question is - do we want to most of the time? We live now, not back then.


Sorry for the rather long story, maybe it would be interesting to at least some and thank you for the nice comments Brad and Steely.
Old 12th November 2009
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltemma74 View Post
I didn't read the whole thread but wanted to offer Stevie Wonder as an example of an artist who I think achieved great clarity and depth in his recordings in the early 70's. I personally love the recordings of Superstition and Higher Ground and they only sound better to me as I turn them up. The extent to which this has to do with the arrangements, the room(s), the performances, the gear used, the available technologies and the people involved is of course debatable.

I had to throw some props over in his direction. Those recordings rock my world.
And the interesting thing is that they translate very well to CD. I still prefer the vinyl, but when I listen to those songs on CD all those things you mention seem to somehow survive. thumbsup
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