The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Clarity and depth of the 70's vs DAW and hard drive: Is it possible... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 3rd January 2010
  #391
Lives for gear
 
Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraVibe View Post
Can we get this sound with the best converters, preamps, a Daw a drive?
Is it possible?
From the engineer standpoint:

Record a lot in mono / hard panning (LCR) / use saturationn during tracking.
Play with a real band. No Software Instrumets.

From the musicians standpoint:

Write a song in 60s to 70s style and try how far you can get.
May copy a song you like...
Old 3rd January 2010
  #392
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
From the engineer standpoint:

Record a lot in mono / hard panning (LCR) / use saturationn during tracking.
Play with a real band. No Software Instrumets...
I've been doing exactly this with the real musicians but found little or no benefit from saturation.
Old 3rd January 2010
  #393
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
Dave Mathews production style just doesn't do it for me I'm afraid. Hi-fi in a non flattering way to me ears.
Drums
Electric Bass
Acoustic guitar
Fiddle
New Age Saxophone

In words somebody attributed to Brian Wilson, "You've got a sonority problem there." This band will NEVER sound good.
Old 3rd January 2010
  #394
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJGoody View Post
Any professional engineer working regularly in the 70's probably had 10x the skill level of the average working engineer today - and I personally feel that's an understatement.
Why?
Old 3rd January 2010
  #395
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
Why?

Nearly every working engineer back then apprenticed under a master and earned his stripes in a pro setting.

There were far fewer working engineers back then compared to now; the curve is now skewed heavily towards the middle and bottom.

Also, Pro Tools. Once upon a time, you had to be able to a) afford and b) maintain an analog tape deck to run a studio, and the information on how to do this was much harder to come by. Gear was not nearly as widely available, nor was advice or information on what to get and why.

The more arcane nature of the craft served as a gatekeeper, a filter with a high threshold for entry. Now, all you need is a pc and the internet and you're most of the way there.

Also, nowadays there are 80 million bazillion acts with music to record, so the market supports a far greater number of studios.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 3rd January 2010
  #396
Lives for gear
 
camus's Avatar
 

"Saturation". Now that's one of the DAW era buzzwords that makes me want to puke every time I hear it.
Old 3rd January 2010
  #397
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 

Some might say the sound was colored, but I really miss the warmth and fullness
of the older 2" tape recordings, yes with their mic bleed and natural distortion and all
the imperfections that came from recording a live band.
Old 3rd January 2010
  #398
Gear Nut
 
TheEqualizer's Avatar
 

Tape hid a lot of mistakes and didn't let you hear every nuisance of everything on every track. This helped a lot.

Picture your favorite actress. Picture a close up of her in the soft light of the 40's screen era.
Now picture her up close in HD, wrinkles and all.
Which do you prefer?
Old 3rd January 2010
  #399
Lives for gear
 
Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I've been doing exactly this with the real musicians but found little or no benefit from saturation.
It was just my guesswork thats the reason why I wrote "see how far you can get" for sure there are more factors in the game.

The musicians.
The centurey they lived in.
The tracking room the mics the enginners-


Anyway Bob you know it better than me!!!!
You produced music in this way.

All I can say if I listen to old produced music waht jumps into my ear is the great sounds of the tracking rooms and that is a thing we cant rebuild within the DAW...NO WAY.

Sorry for my bad english....
Old 3rd January 2010
  #400
Lives for gear
 
waxx's Avatar
 

i think there are several reasons:

better arrangment (not so dense like now is normal) it's like because you can record 96ch or so in your daw you've got to use them all these day's. Most of my own stuff goes about 12-24ch...
good gain staging (some 'engineers' still don't get it)
more instrument or even a whole band capting with one mic on the right spot in the right room and more room/less close micing
much less compression and limiting, especially on the masterbus and during mastering
better musicians (or you heared they sucked, no autotune, beat detective, midi and fast and easy editing like now).
better sound engineers (the machinery was very expensive and often more difficult to operate, so even for demo recording you had to have skills)

tape did also indeed hide a lot of details, so also the little mistakes. Digital is often too revealing. It helps to use a LPF with a 12dB/octave slope arround 14K till 16K on the masterbus to get the tape rolloff effect that hides a lot without loosing to much clarity (i do it often)

and don't forget, we only remember the good things of some era's of the past, I'm rather sure that in the 70's there was also a lot of ****-music arround (i wasn't until the end), you only don't remember it anymoree because it's not worth it. I also know a lot of lofi production of that time (i talk about a lot of reggae and afrobeat for instance) that's actually good music, but lo fi due to the lo fi budgets ... But the mainstream listeners may not know that. Not everything produced in the 70's was sounding better.
Old 1st February 2010
  #401
Lives for gear
 

I think the problem is the death of live music. A band can't make a living any more, and it takes years to get really good.

Listen to live recordings from the 60's. It wasn't the crummy recording gear that produced that sound. Like the Rolling Stones "Got Live If You Want It." Whoa. That band was popular and gigging all the time. It makes a difference.

Today it is garbage in, garbage out. I think recording is better these days.
Old 1st February 2010
  #402
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by N88 View Post
This has been a fact for a long time now. They test song bits on sample groups of listeners, tossing out the high and low scoring pieces. If there's nothing to turn you off, and no where else to go for something that turns you on, they wager you'll just stay put.

The whole system needs to be circumvented, and so far the various internet possibilities, which basically amount to user and support groups, aren't doing it.
I have heard more great music in Youtube in the past year than in the previous thirty years combined.
Old 1st February 2010
  #403
Lives for gear
 
steelyfan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall View Post
IMO.. It's the over and misuse of digital compression and EQ that are screwing the mixes and sound of most of the modern day hopefuls... and then there is that over limiting and loudness thing

It's not digital that is the problem per-se.. It's the way most folks use it...

Yep.
It's amazing how good even average preamps sound going into a digital interface with average converters. Don't undertand all the over doing it stuff...... the source sounds shouldn't need all that salt and pepper.


steelyfan
Old 1st February 2010
  #404
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

More like Aspartame and Saccharin......put some real sugar on there if it needs sweetening......or some cane syrup heh
Old 1st February 2010
  #405
Lives for gear
It's gotta be the use of bell-bottom pants - something about the way the extra fabric absorbed the reflections off the real hardwood floors.

Seriously though, it required a serious investment of time and money to produce a record back then. If you were an amateur, you probably couldn't afford it. If you were a pro, you had to be one of the best of them (and under the tutelage of a top-notch one) to even touch the board. Most producers started as engineers; most engineers started as assistant engineers; most assistant engineers started as tape ops; most tape ops started as janitors. You had to earn your stripes.

Another point (made earlier but worth reiterating): there were a lot of crappy recordings back then, too. It just so happens that only the good ones are remembered or talked about now, hence the false impression that all recording was better then.
Old 1st February 2010
  #406
Lives for gear
 
DJamesGoody's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitrax View Post
Most producers started as engineers; most engineers started as assistant engineers; most assistant engineers started as tape ops; most tape ops started as janitors. You had to earn your stripes.
Actually, most producers did not start out as engineers back then. There was much more separation of the two jobs from the 50's throughout the 70's and into the 80's, when engineer/producer crossover became more common.

Most producers back then were explicitly not engineers. Perhaps that's an overlooked difference.
Old 1st February 2010
  #407
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Producer/engineers developed during the '70s mostly as a result of the really bad pay engineers started getting after the unions went away.

Virtually every successful producer I'm aware of has a background working with a very experienced producer or in a very few cases, a really experienced engineer.
Old 20th February 2010
  #408
Lives for gear
what?

It's a total crock of engineering **** to think that people were more 'skilled' back then or that digital is in some way unforgiving.
Is it any coincidence that stuff sounded best when people were really doing things for the first time? It was George Martin's willingness to daringly mess about with his machines that dragged music forward. It was Buddy Holly having no concept of what rock and roll ought to sound like.
Complacency and an ugly idea that you make a 'product' out of music has killed the fun and the exploration. There is no right way or wrong way to record music! Throw away your rulebooks, never be self-important. Spend less time popping your phase in and out on drum sounds and the band might have more time to do takes! Getting to a place where every beat has been placed and every note tuned is just awful.
Taking risks isn't just down to the artist. 'Good vibes' in the studio create the kind of creative environment in which good things happen. Spending more time trying to be a righteous dude and less on your rig would probably be the best way forward IMHO.
Check out Battles and Sigur Ros and then tell me that music was better when.....
Old 20th February 2010
  #409
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

The whole point of a recording studio is to allow the artist to take risks and reliably capture any magic that is produced as a result of taking risks.

In 1965 making any kind of a recording was taking a huge risk that you would sound like crap unless your songs, arrangements and musicianship were on a very high plane. In almost all cases ones songs, arrangements and musicianship got to that high plane as a direct result of being booed off the stage when one sucked.

The '70s combined better technology with the skills that had been required in order to just survive during the '60s. Unfortunately many stars of the '60s got lazy as technology started to allow mediocrity. Rising to an occasion of needing to be great was a huge component of most of the great recordings I know anything about.
Old 20th February 2010
  #410
Lives for gear
 

Bah bah to all of it. My cousin went to Nashville to do some recordings a couple years ago, and when I heard the recordings I was blown away. the 3d quality, huge, yet delicate. I said, "My god, that sounds like that great 70's stuff, liek I haven't even heard that beautiful sound for years", and he said, "yep, it's hard to beat that 2 inch tape. Face it. 2 inch tape HAS NO RIVAL for wonderful, pro sound. You can make good recordings digital, but good and GREAT are two different things. Go listen to some recordings made on 2 inch tape and you'll quickly know what's missing.
Old 20th February 2010
  #411
Lives for gear
 
The Listener's Avatar
Not claiming it is great (yet ) or anything, but it sounds pretty 70's-like to me... :

A raw, unmixed example... I am currently starting to mix this jazz-rock album and I just finished "Nebulizing" all the elements before I even start the mix.
No EQs, no compressors, no reverb, no nothing on it, some crude balance and pan. It was recorded straight to DAW and now all the tracks have been put through Nebula AlexB Neve console emulation - MWC and a pinch of Virsyn Vtape on master bus.
Attached Files

jazzrock_test.mp3 (2.43 MB, 77 views)

Old 20th February 2010
  #412
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by automatom View Post
It's a total crock of engineering **** to think that people were more 'skilled' back then or that digital is in some way unforgiving.
Is it any coincidence that stuff sounded best when people were really doing things for the first time? It was George Martin's willingness to daringly mess about with his machines that dragged music forward. It was Buddy Holly having no concept of what rock and roll ought to sound like.
Complacency and an ugly idea that you make a 'product' out of music has killed the fun and the exploration. There is no right way or wrong way to record music! Throw away your rulebooks, never be self-important. Spend less time popping your phase in and out on drum sounds and the band might have more time to do takes! Getting to a place where every beat has been placed and every note tuned is just awful.
Taking risks isn't just down to the artist. 'Good vibes' in the studio create the kind of creative environment in which good things happen. Spending more time trying to be a righteous dude and less on your rig would probably be the best way forward IMHO.
Check out Battles and Sigur Ros and then tell me that music was better when.....
WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!! Btw i think porn was better in the 70's as well. Unshaved women and guys who never took their glasses or black sox off...ahh, memories
Old 20th February 2010
  #413
Gear Nut
 

Every style of music runs from it's primitive beginnings, it's development and then its redundancy, until it loses it's vitality. Pretty much all musical styles are redundant thanks to modern communication technology. The inherent excitement of doing something that's never been done before is what's missing from modern music; but, there are exceptions in bands that find excitement in mining the treasures of what's preceded them. But it's still not as exciting as the original discoveries. "Degustibus, non disputatum est"
Old 20th February 2010
  #414
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios View Post
get one of these for the that "70s" sound mic pres and 8Chs of Analog Summing on a budget:

I had this console, an 8 track Otari, home made plate reverb, 4311's and a hand full of mics in my first studio in 1980 (no comps!). It was a constant struggle for the best signal to noise without print-through. I worked hard at gain staging, mic placement, etc. and managed to make some music that still kinda sounds cool today. It made me think hard about what I was doing and boy did you debate whether the lead guitarist could OD a better take.

db
Old 20th February 2010
  #415
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Brown View Post
I had this console, an 8 track Otari, home made plate reverb, 4311's and a hand full of mics in my first studio in 1980 (no comps!). It was a constant struggle for the best signal to noise without print-through. I worked hard at gain staging, mic placement, etc. and managed to make some music that still kinda sounds cool today. It made me think hard about what I was doing and boy did you debate whether the lead guitarist could OD a better take.

db
Think about Les Paul's early scheme though, sound on sound. The overdub would destroy everything recorded so far if it went awry. Talk about pressure.
Old 20th February 2010
  #416
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
Not claiming it is great (yet ) or anything, but it sounds pretty 70's-like to me... .
That sounds great! I dig it. The bass and snare sound a little too roomy to me to sound authentically '70s but it sounds good. Seems like direct bass and totally dead drum booth were more the order of the day. This has a cool, kind of late Soft Machine vibe though.
Old 21st February 2010
  #417
Lives for gear
 
Arksun's Avatar
It would be great to take some of the best sounding albums from the last 10 years, then magically remove all the limiting that's present on the final recordings and THEN compare those to the sound of 70's recordings
Old 21st February 2010
  #418
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

You'd also have to remove the buss compression and then rebalance the music.
Old 21st February 2010
  #419
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

And remove a lot of aggravating top end and and and and and......
Old 21st February 2010
  #420
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

And pare down the arrangements so that there are half as many parts that fit together twice as well.

And add actual chord progressions and melodies.

And strip away the quantization on everything.

And bypass the auto-tune.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Durv / Music Computers
6
monobeat / Music Computers
5
skan / Music Computers
1
Absolute / Music Computers
7
Teacher / So much gear, so little time
31

Forum Jump
Forum Jump