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Clarity and depth of the 70's vs DAW and hard drive: Is it possible... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 16th November 2009
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJGoody View Post
can we consider for a moment that frankly, there is much less to be discovered anymore?

In 1969, when you went to your friend's house after school, and he put on Led Zeppelin I, you'd never heard anything like it. Revolver - never heard anything like it. The list goes on, until you reach a point where most music becomes a variation on a theme. Why? Because it's mostly been done.

These days, no matter how inventive a band is these days (let's take a mainstream example like Radiohead - Kid A), there is a reference point from which it ultimately came. There was no reference point for Bitches Brew or Dark side of the Moon or Tago Mago, or Neu 75.

The last frontier of groundbreaking musical thought is in the electronic music realm - Warp Records and that circle of folks. Even then, there is usually a reference point.

Simply put, music itself may be infinite, but the creation of genuinely new music is not. There is only so much water on planet earth. Once it's all found, it's all found. You can bottle it however you want - it's still found water.
really really good post. It was EASY to be different "back in the day".....
Old 16th November 2009
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
really really good post. It was EASY to be different "back in the day".....
Yes, but on the other hand there are infinite angles of 'personality' that come only with that specific person. So in a sense you don't actually have to reinvent the whole wheel, but 'merely' (lol) put your specific flavour into the brew to the max. Provided you can access it. And I mean access it, not have it, as I believe all have one, but the fewest can actually channel it so it manifests in a way others can perceive. That's why music is so potentially magical. Because normal communication and language are severely limited in communicating lots of what it is to be human, so when someone manages to channel stuff into music that doesn't fit in other communication, people get touched. And again, you don't need to reinvent the wheel to do this.
Old 16th November 2009
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Yes, but on the other hand there are infinite angles of 'personality' that come only with that specific person. So in a sense you don't actually have to reinvent the whole wheel, but 'merely' (lol) put your specific flavour into the brew to the max. Provided you can access it. And I mean access it, not have it, as I believe all have one, but the fewest can actually channel it so it manifests in a way others can perceive. That's why music is so potentially magical. Because normal communication and language are severely limited in communicating lots of what it is to be human, so when someone manages to channel stuff into music that doesn't fit in other communication, people get touched. And again, you don't need to reinvent the wheel to do this.
So true. Jeff Buckley didn't invent anything new, just shared all his angels and demons and feelings with the world using his voice and guitar. He did something that thousands have done before, and will do after, but we only get (got) ..... ONE Jeff Buckley, and his voice and music (although not wheel re-creating) touched so many people in a positive/ uplifting way that he really was a magical force. ........and his records were recorded properly even though they don't sound "vintage" , they sound modern without the possibly of ever sounding dated or aging badly.
Old 16th November 2009
  #274
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absolutely right - and that's why we do get great stuff still happening. Yes - a lot of dross... but there always was!!

I think we've also got to include the whole "taste" thing though - most GSers just dont like Beyonce records... But a good track is a good track and she's made em!! Even if they dont appeal to my stoner rock roots!! hehe
Old 16th November 2009
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJGoody View Post
...Simply put, music itself may be infinite, but the creation of genuinely new music is not. There is only so much water on planet earth. Once it's all found, it's all found. You can bottle it however you want - it's still found water.
I can assure you that this is exactly what many believed back in the 1960s and '70s.

They were proven wrong.
Old 16th November 2009
  #276
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People need to wise up to the difference between "Volume" and "Loud".. You say someone is *loud*, it tends to be a pejorative statement. You say someone has * gravitas* again there is a qualitative analysis involved in the description.

Someone needs to sit a few genre leaders down and show just how *loud* actually, in reality, equals *small* as opposed to *weight* equals volume and ergo, big..
Old 16th November 2009
  #277
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Oh I hear ya, and honestly I dig it all, especially cool pop music. But there's stuff that either moves me, or it falls flat. If something is just ok, it's failed for me. Not that everything that we listen to has to move us deeply or spirtually, it just needs to be good, regardless of style or genre (although some genres' seem to disappoint more than others)

I've gotten similar feelings from a Cyndi Lauper song as from a Captain Beefheart song, although two different worlds, the quality of the message and how it hit my consciousness/bloodstream had something in common.

I love Adrian Belew's music, he's an incredible artist/musician, but what's interesting (to me) is that I want to hear all his music produced like "In the Court of the Crimson King", which I know he didn't play on, but that sound makes so much sense with his aesthetic. Technology hasn't done anything to enhance the feeling of music, only capture it more clearly.
Belew's work doesn't benefit from a pro studio sound, it needs to sound like it's coming from a Castle, or rolling through foogy hills. Something that clarity can't provide.
Old 16th November 2009
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I can assure you that this is exactly what many believed back in the 1960s and '70s.

They were proven wrong.

true - but we've all seen new muscial forms pop out of the woods that were radically different from those classics..... There hasn't been anything radically new in 20 years..... all new and exciting and lots to say - but nothing "different"... just "different takes".... which for me is great and dandy...
Old 16th November 2009
  #279
N88
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I've long been into minimalism; a less is more aesthetic. The idea mentioned by Mertmo2 of meeting the music half-way is a familiar sense. When someone is talking on TV, have you ever noticed that turning down the set causes you to listen more deeply? Less of it, more of you. Some of my favorite music is ancient Chinese solo pieces, where the emptiness leaves space for you to be. They engage you, allow the world in. True ambient music can do this as well; meant to be played at a low level, it mixes with your natural environment.

In a cycle, once a waxing reaches completion, it has nowhere to go but to decay. So you don't want to reach completion. Art is the same way. If you don't over-articulate, room is left for the imagination of the observer to participate.
Old 16th November 2009
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N88 View Post
I've long been into minimalism; a less is more aesthetic. The idea mentioned by Mertmo2 of meeting the music half-way is a familiar sense. When someone is talking on TV, have you ever noticed that turning down the set causes you to listen more deeply? Less of it, more of you. Some of my favorite music is ancient Chinese solo pieces, where the emptiness leaves space for you to be. They engage you, allow the world in. True ambient music can do this as well; meant to be played at a low level, it mixes with your natural environment.

In a cycle, once a waxing reaches completion, it has nowhere to go but to decay. So you don't want to reach completion. Art is the same way. If you don't over-articulate, room is left for the imagination of the observer to participate.

Wonderful sentiment.
When music makes you reach in for IT, rather than project LISTEN, your ears and mind are at peace with the sound, regardless if it's rock n roll or whatever. I also feel that's #1 on fidelity's seduction list......... "the reach in and listen" I call it , as a participant and spectator at the same time.
Old 16th November 2009
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post

Wonderful sentiment.
When music makes you reach in for IT, rather than project LISTEN, your ears and mind are at peace with the sound, regardless if it's rock n roll or whatever. I also feel that's #1 on fidelity's seduction list......... "the reach in and listen" I call it , as a participant and spectator at the same time.

After all, we don't want raping, we want seduction, right!? heh
Old 16th November 2009
  #282
Quote:
Originally Posted by themaidsroom View Post
i disagree with this, although i must state that i agree with pretty much everywhere
else he has posted in all of the years coming to gearslutz.
i record things to 2" 16 track and pro-tools simultaneously
and there is a huge difference. tape just sounds much, much better.

i agree with everything else bob said in concept. the rooms, the bands, the level
of musicianship: they are primary

the sound of tape is huge - i lock the 2" machine to pro tools and feed 100% analog
signal of a vocal chain to a singer and they sing and perform in a different
way - it is softer and gentler and kinder to the ears - it inspires the singer - younger ones
run in the control room and ask what the **** is going on - it is a shock if you have been tracking to
pro tools for several months

i agree with walter sear that there are many things going on in digital that we don't understand
- they agitate and fatigue - tracking on pro tools is much more tiring
in my opinion


be well

- jack
Does Walter say that too or are you thinking of Rupert Neve?
Old 16th November 2009
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I can assure you that this is exactly what many believed back in the 1960s and '70s.

They were proven wrong.
I agree with both sentiments. I sometimes feel that we've come to the end of era. It's nothing new: Baroque, Romanticism, classicism all had their days numbered one way or the other. Why would "pop music" (based on those three chords and 4/4 beat, chorus, verse etc.) be any different?
On the other hand, why the obsession with being groundbreaking, or new or whatever? Being ORIGINAL is what's it's all about. You can be original and play older styles of music. As soon as you try too hard to be "new" you're most likely on the wrong track anyway. If the music you feel is closest to your heart, the stuff you wanna make, is somehow percieved as "new", well that may be an added bonus. Put personality coming through in your music is important. All the other stuff: not so much.
Old 16th November 2009
  #284
Quote:
Originally Posted by themaidsroom View Post
i record to more or less - 10 on tape that is calibrated at + 9.
i don't believe that digital is just storing what you are giving to it.
i think digital removes a lot of spatial components of sound and i think
it's abilities to track certain frequencies are based more on science than
practical applications. 15 ips 16 track can make bass and drums come to life
on a dance floor in a way that i don't hear from digital. i only like analog classical.
i don't think strings transfer well to digital

in london, there is much more dancing than nyc and it is amazing to watch
the floor and feel of the floor depending on whether the dj is spinning vinyl, playing
cd's or playing mp3's from a laptop......the laptop clears the floor.....the cd is
not great.....the vinyl is a completely different thing - it is gentle and soft, it's
highs can be tremendously accurate and silky without aggression.

if you look at a graph of my studer A827 - it is pretty accurate at both 15 ips
and 30 ips

it is a great time to buy a tape recorder as they are being left aside by so many
high quality used tape is very available at $75 a reel.
how great it is that someone can buy a really great tape recorder for $7500.
one that will last for the next 25 years. one that is designed to be cared for
and repaired and not part of the world of upgrades and planned obsolescence.


what changed my life when i moved over to analog in 2003 is how easy it is
to get great sounds

i never had that sense with digital

obviously, i need to come to terms with the fact that my world is like a tiny niche
now, like a medieval reenactment society


i'll try to get with that


be well


- jack
Hmm. I agree with you in principle, but I think some of what you've written is wrong. Maybe not. My first thought was "where's the spatial infromation on a mono guitar track?"

I think L/R stereo spectrum when I hear "spatial information". Maybe you mean front to back, or maybe you mean in the context of a stereo track.

I do agree that digital makes some kind of esthetic change that neither air nor tape make.

I'm wondering how carefully you've studied the dancing. That's a big statement to make if it hasn't been pretty careful. I haven't had a chance to witness that, but I do believe that what you're saying can be 100% true.

I've experienced my listening reactions to cassette vs CD on a couple of occasions - not enough to draw conclusions, but such drastically different reponses on more than one occasion.

I've heard a similar story with a tracking playback comparing DAT and cassette and different reactions in the room. But none of these have really been studied in a way that you could attribute direct cause and effect.
Old 16th November 2009
  #285
Motown legend
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
... There hasn't been anything radically new in 20 years.....
That's because everything's been coasting on an infrastructure some folks created during the 1950s and '60s that went away during the '90s.

People have been wanting to be 1968 or 1980 without realizing we only have the business infrastructure for music of 1948 along with the exposure infrastructure of 1928. What they need to be is NOW and solving age old infrastructure issues that folks from the '60s-80s didn't need to worry about.
Old 16th November 2009
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw Hans View Post
...personality coming through in your music is important. All the other stuff: not so much.
It has always been the only thing unique and original. All the rest is fear of rejection.
Old 16th November 2009
  #287
Gear Addict
The 1980's & 1990's brought blatant rejection of independent artists at the door steps of the local radio stations leaving many of us with bloody noses from the door being closed on our faces because we were not part of their "corporate" structure...as they subsequently were swallowed up by the Clear Channels of the world. This undoubtedly skewed our perception of what "good music" is because we didn't get to hear many innovative artists from then through current times...
Old 16th November 2009
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw Hans View Post
I agree with both sentiments. I sometimes feel that we've come to the end of era. It's nothing new: Baroque, Romanticism, classicism all had their days numbered one way or the other. Why would "pop music" (based on those three chords and 4/4 beat, chorus, verse etc.) be any different?
On the other hand, why the obsession with being groundbreaking, or new or whatever? Being ORIGINAL is what's it's all about. You can be original and play older styles of music. As soon as you try too hard to be "new" you're most likely on the wrong track anyway. If the music you feel is closest to your heart, the stuff you wanna make, is somehow percieved as "new", well that may be an added bonus. Put personality coming through in your music is important. All the other stuff: not so much.

I like that. All of it.
There's alot of that in modern music, just not on the radio. It was ALL OVER radio in the 50's 60's and 70's. It was the way people worked back then,
the feeling of the vocal take was WAY more important than technically perfect. Hints the missed notes all over Sinatra, Motown, and lots of classic recordings. Audiences didn't notice it because the feeling was there, it didn't sound like a mistake, it sounded like the love of singing.
Old 16th November 2009
  #289
Gear Addict
Judging by the passion in this thread, maybe we are sharing depth and clarity for our mutual love of audio, songs and fidelity...
Old 16th November 2009
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
After all, we don't want raping, we want seduction, right!? heh

he he........
Seduction is a wonderful thing. Watching a Beyonce video the other night, I realized she was seducing me, I forgot where I was, and after the video ended, I wondered how much of the world she REALLY controls......LOL.


Fidelity in audio snaps me to when I realize I've been listening to some really bad music for like 30 minutes , but it sounds so brilliant all I can hear is how wonderful the drums and bass sound together, as the music itself starts to produce a foamy mouth stomach ache, I can't pull myself away cause fidelity is king, and that hideous vocal was recorded perfectly. Random record collecting can be an adventurous/ dangerous thing!



Steelyfan
Old 16th November 2009
  #291
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So to sum up as Bob Calvert so eloquently put it...

i am a clone
i am not alone
every fibre of my flesh
and bone
is identical to ther others'
everything i say
is in the same tone
as my test-tube brothers'
voice.
there is no choice
between us
if you had ever seen us
you'd rejoice
in your uniqueness
and consider every weakness
something special
of your own
being a clone
i have no flaws to identify
even this doggerel
that pours from my pen
has just been written by
another twenty
telepathic men
it says:
o for the wings
of any bird
other than a battery hen.

but that's the spirit of the age
(spirit of the age)
that's just the spirit of the age
(spirit of the age)
it's just the spirit of the age
(spirit of the age)
adjust the spirit of the age
(spirit of the age)
unjust the spirit of the age
(spirit of the age)
Old 16th November 2009
  #292
Or, even earlier I would imagine:

My name is 905
and I've just become alive
Old 16th November 2009
  #293
N88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
It has always been the only thing unique and original. All the rest is fear of rejection.
This is so true, and on both sides of the equation. At this point, our culture is so many layers removed from 'real' most wouldn't recognize it if they found it. It would just seem bad, amateur, poorly done, naive, strange, whatever.

People aren't drawn in for musical qualities, but for reasons of adrenalin, aggression, stress relief, anger, and so on. This has always been true to some degree, but I think it was a byproduct instead of the manufacturing intent it's become. I think some of us are 'spoiled' because we got to live in a culture that wasn't yet amped to such an extreme.
Old 16th November 2009
  #294
N88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Or, even earlier I would imagine:
'I am not a number. I am a free man.'
Old 16th November 2009
  #295
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by N88 View Post
...At this point, our culture is so many layers removed from 'real' most wouldn't recognize it if they found it. It would just seem bad, amateur, poorly done, naive, strange, whatever...
Thankfully I've had enough experiences with real when it comes to music that I know it would be unmistakable to anybody. Pop records are rarely all that real but the James Brown Band, the Count Basie Orchestra, several black Gospel singers I've known, a few older country singers, some actors and an 18 year old girl singing classical Indian music were real enough to stand my hair on end in a manner that no recording I've ever encountered could. These folks changed the atmosphere of the room. They take over your breathing and change your whole outlook on life.
Old 17th November 2009
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
he he........
Seduction is a wonderful thing. Watching a Beyonce video the other night, I realized she was seducing me, I forgot where I was, and after the video ended, I wondered how much of the world she REALLY controls......LOL.


Fidelity in audio snaps me to when I realize I've been listening to some really bad music for like 30 minutes , but it sounds so brilliant all I can hear is how wonderful the drums and bass sound together, as the music itself starts to produce a foamy mouth stomach ache, I can't pull myself away cause fidelity is king, and that hideous vocal was recorded perfectly. Random record collecting can be an adventurous/ dangerous thing!



Steelyfan
Sorry if this makes me the odd one out amongst the heterosexual males, but Beyonce to me is a total dud as far as seduction. Feels like cold, well orchestrated showmanship with "anti-my-last-guy" lyrics that supposedly empower women. I think they harden women at best and the whole thing is most definitely about as far removed from seduction as your average building site. I don't feel no love there, and that's not including the sound, which is 'professional' and 'big' but equally cold. Go on, Jay-Z. You go bling it up with that one.
Old 17th November 2009
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Thankfully I've had enough experiences with real when it comes to music that I know it would be unmistakable to anybody. Pop records are rarely all that real but the James Brown Band, the Count Basie Orchestra, several black Gospel singers I've known, a few older country singers, some actors and an 18 year old girl singing classical Indian music were real enough to stand my hair on end in a manner that no recording I've ever encountered could. These folks changed the atmosphere of the room. They take over your breathing and change your whole outlook on life.
Hair on end. That sums it up. That's what happens when music is doing what it should. But I think N88 is right, hair on end is about the last thing people expect and even consciously want from it today. A lot of people anyway. How many situations have any of you been in, in the midst of making a record where if you put this forward as a goal, even the professionals working with you start looking at you funny as if to say "Yeah, right! That my son is reserved for the classics of yesteryear. Don't you worry about striving for that! Are you naive or something?"
Old 17th November 2009
  #298
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
That's because everything's been coasting on an infrastructure some folks created during the 1950s and '60s that went away during the '90s.

People have been wanting to be 1968 or 1980 without realizing we only have the business infrastructure for music of 1948 along with the exposure infrastructure of 1928. What they need to be is NOW and solving age old infrastructure issues that folks from the '60s-80s didn't need to worry about.
i'm only referring to musical styles - not business models. they will continue to evolve in new and exciting ways....
Old 17th November 2009
  #299
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by N88 View Post
'I am not a number. I am a free man.'
you are a cadburys cream egg.
Old 17th November 2009
  #300
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
i'm only referring to musical styles - not business models. they will continue to evolve in new and exciting ways....
Musical styles are always imposed after the fact. Infrastructure is how music gets from the performer to the listener. It generally costs money which turns it into a business.
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