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Yamaha NS10m Studio monitors and Amplifier thread
Old 24th September 2020 | Show parent
  #631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockzentrale View Post
I did not measure it (and I am currently not at home to be able to do). But sure it will introduce some latency. Typical AD-DA latency at least which should be in the rage of let's say 0.5 ms to 1.5 ms I suppose... (This is by far not critical in a studio monitoring setup - unless you would use the NS-10 a it with a Subwoofer that has a different Amp and no ability to regulate the delay)

If for any special reason you need an exact latency value I could measure it for you the next days.

Yes, the DSP appears rather useless in the given context. Just Lopass and Hipass. The amp is designed for stage application and it is the cost-effective product line that does not have many options (in order to be still able to sell the more expensive models I suppose.)
I've read discussions about AD-DA conversions in the XLS and I measured the frequency response once. The signal is steeply lopassed above 20k which very much appears to be an anti-aliasing filter. So rather unlikely it is an analog filter...

Anyways, to me there is no audible / negative impact compared to fully analog amps (which surprised me). The steep anti-aliasing filter might even protect the beloved but somewhat delicate HF drivers in the NS-10

The amp apparently is also loved and much discussed by many of our good friends at the high-end-audio department... (Using plain gold-wires for the speakers and at least a $250 Power cord of course )
Lol, yes the hifi community 🤔 ..

Latency, if reasonable, doesn't matter right now, as I'll also be powering NS10 as alt speakers, but I was also thinking of getting another one to drive some ATC SCM20SL surround speakers. In that scenario, I'd find even 1ms a bit annoying, because it's no longer aligned with the front speakers.

So if you do get the time to measure that'd be great. I'm amazed Crown don't publish any figures.
Old 24th September 2020
  #632
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There is no latency with the crown. You can run it without any room correction. The fan only turns on at startup and then is off the entire time
Old 24th September 2020 | Show parent
  #633
Quote:
Originally Posted by JblKid95 View Post
There is no latency with the crown. You can run it without any room correction. The fan only turns on at startup and then is off the entire time
If it's going through AD/DA there would be at least some converter latency, however small, no?
Old 24th September 2020 | Show parent
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crimsonnoise View Post
If it's going through AD/DA there would be at least some converter latency, however small, no?
I thought that’s if you loaded in the room correction files. If there was I wouldn’t have noticed it while playing keys. If you say 1ms then probably why I didn’t notice it
Old 28th September 2020 | Show parent
  #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crimsonnoise View Post
Lol, yes the hifi community 🤔 ..

Latency, if reasonable, doesn't matter right now, as I'll also be powering NS10 as alt speakers, but I was also thinking of getting another one to drive some ATC SCM20SL surround speakers. In that scenario, I'd find even 1ms a bit annoying, because it's no longer aligned with the front speakers.

So if you do get the time to measure that'd be great. I'm amazed Crown don't publish any figures.
I measured the throughput latency of the XLS1002 with all filters off. It's 1.27 ms which falls into the expected range.

So there is some typical AD-DA latency plus some DSP runtime according to the used block size I suppose (even if the no active filtering is engaged).

For conventional stereo listening/mixing/alt speakers/main speakers this is no problem, as long as the NS-10 is not combined with a subwoofer that has no ability of delay alignment (wich would not be recommendable in any case).

For playing instruments and listening through the speakers 1.27 ms should not be noticeable at all. However, the amp delay sums up with the overall system latency. So finally it has to be decided in individual cases.

In your case when running the NS-10 with a XLS amp in a surround setup this would be a problem indeed, as the rest of the speakers are supposed to have zero latency or a at least a different latency. This is a very special case any I suppose rather few people would use a mixed speaker surround setup like this. Anyway. If it works for you - why not? In this specific scenario I would definitely choose a different amp without AD-DA/DSP latency in order to have at least equal latencies with all speakers in the surround setup.

If the surround speakers also have DSPs (e.g. Genelecs with room correction) you could have the same problem the other way around. Surround setups generally are highly sensitive to delay differences. That's why in most cases and for most people (that just want to mix without doing any rocket science) it is highly recommendable using speakers of the same brand and series for the setup unless you have measurement equipment and knowledge to align a mixed system correctly.

So: A Crown XLS has 1.27 ms of latency. Is it bad? Definitely depends on the scenario. For most conventional scenarios a NS-10 is used in this should be no problem.
Old 28th September 2020 | Show parent
  #636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockzentrale View Post
In your case when running the NS-10 with a XLS amp in a surround setup this would be a problem indeed, as the rest of the speakers are supposed to have zero latency or a at least a different latency. This is a very special case any I suppose rather few people would use a mixed speaker surround setup like this. Anyway. If it works for you - why not? In this specific scenario I would definitely choose a different amp without AD-DA/DSP latency in order to have at least equal latencies with all speakers in the surround setup.

So: A Crown XLS has 1.27 ms of latency. Is it bad? Definitely depends on the scenario. For most conventional scenarios a NS-10 is used in this should be no problem.
Thanks so much for measuring! Really useful to know!

Great. 1.27ms is fine to use in stereo with NS10s alone as you say.

Apologies, I didn't make myself clear regarding the surround setup. I was thinking of using another Crown amp for driving my passive surround speakers, ATC SCM20SLs, which a power hungry. LCR fron speakers are ATC SCM50ASL actives, so, although it's a mixed setup, the 50s and 20s have a similar tonality, and it's not uncommon to use surrounds one size down. But as the front speakers have no delays, a 1.27 ms delay in the surrounds would would make them sound further away than they really are, and would invite to put too much level/presence in the surrounds while mixing.

The surrounds are currently run from a big Rotel Class AB amp which sounds great, (better than the Bryston it replaced), but it's generating too much much heat. So I am looking for a good Class D replacement amp.
Old 28th September 2020 | Show parent
  #637
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Yeah of course if the speakers are tonally similar and the delays are all the same a mixed setup is no problem and commonly used! I hope you did not misunderstand me.

Maybe you should check the XTZ EDGE A2-300 for your purpose? It is a Class-D with comparable parameters as the XLS1002 but without AD-DA and DSP. It uses ICE Modules which are quite good. (But watch out whether your setup might possibly become a tiny bit brilliant depending on the impedance of your speakers. With the XLS it's not the case.) I did not test the XTZ but I have read a lot of (mostly good) stuff about it. Maybe worth a try.
Old 3rd October 2020 | Show parent
  #638
After reading about NS10s for decades, I finally got a pair. I'd been looking for weeks for some with a good price. Snagged a pair for $425. I was skeptical given the price but I got them two days ago and couldn't believe my eyes. They are like brand new. Perfect. I could not find any signs of use! Using a Yamaha CR-640 amp/receiver to power them. As expected, they sound terrible. More terrible than I imagined from people's descriptions I've read for years. To me, by themselves, I can't hear much of anything below about 400 hz or so coming from them. It seems to be the upper mid range that is magnified. The Yamaha CR-640 provides for two sets of speakers to be connected, so I also have a very nice set of much larger 3 way sealed enclosure Optimus monitors I've been using as a set of alternative monitors for years. Running those two sets together sounds great. I can still hear the magnified upper mids from the NS-10s along with a fuller low mid and bass from The other monitors. I immediately understood how useful adding NS-10s will be for mixing.
Old 3rd October 2020
  #639
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400 hz ???!!! something is wrong
Old 4th October 2020 | Show parent
  #640
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
400 hz ???!!! something is wrong
Well, I was just guessing and I was way off I guess. Looking at graphs for the NS10m, I see they start rolling off steeply at about 100 hz. I still don't hear a lot below about 200 to 300 hz

Last edited by Rob Coates; 4th October 2020 at 03:32 PM..
Old 4th October 2020
  #641
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Some people and ns10s just shouldn’t meet lol smh
Old 5th October 2020 | Show parent
  #642
New to NS10s but the myth that if it sounds good on NS10s, it sounds good on anything has already been busted for me. The first project I mixed as a total novice back in 1991 sounded terrible. Full of mud and murkiness. Well, I played that CD on the NS10s, and guess what? It sounded fine. None of the thick mud that can be clearly heard on my other two sets of monitors. It sounds far better than any other monitors I've ever played that CD on. So...you could have a huge slog of muddy crap down below 100hz and if you mixed only on these, you wouldn't know it was there ( unless you are one of those hard to believe mixers who claim they can judge the bass by watching how much the woofers move?) I know many of you claim to do it but how could anyone possibly rely on NS10s alone for mixing?
Old 5th October 2020 | Show parent
  #643
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If you had a lot of mess at 100hz and below, it would show up on RMS meters and your loudness would be dead giveaway. There’s also a way ns10s sound when the lows are clogged. I think they are a tool in the process. I’ve never heard anyone say they were the ultimate mixing monitors. Respect to you though because I could barely formulate a full sentence when you mixed that record


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates View Post
New to NS10s but the myth that if it sounds good on NS10s, it sounds good on anything has already been busted for me. The first project I mixed as a total novice back in 1991 sounded terrible. Full of mud and murkiness. Well, I played that CD on the NS10s, and guess what? It sounded fine. None of the thick mud that can be clearly heard on my other two sets of monitors. It sounds far better than any other monitors I've ever played that CD on. So...you could have a huge slog of muddy crap down below 100hz and if you mixed only on these, you wouldn't know it was there ( unless you are one of those hard to believe mixers who claim they can judge the bass by watching how much the woofers move?) I know many of you claim to do it but how could anyone possibly rely on NS10s alone for mixing?
Old 6th October 2020 | Show parent
  #644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates View Post
New to NS10s but the myth that if it sounds good on NS10s, it sounds good on anything has already been busted for me. The first project I mixed as a total novice back in 1991 sounded terrible. Full of mud and murkiness. Well, I played that CD on the NS10s, and guess what? It sounded fine. None of the thick mud that can be clearly heard on my other two sets of monitors. It sounds far better than any other monitors I've ever played that CD on. So...you could have a huge slog of muddy crap down below 100hz and if you mixed only on these, you wouldn't know it was there ( unless you are one of those hard to believe mixers who claim they can judge the bass by watching how much the woofers move?) I know many of you claim to do it but how could anyone possibly rely on NS10s alone for mixing?
This was my problem with them and why I ultimately removed them and just left the Auratones. I had no idea what was going on below 500Hz. It puzzled me that speakers this large provided actually even less info on the low mids/low end than tiny Auratones.

I'm sure if I spent 10 years with them I'd learn to read them, but since I didn't have that much time, I just put them in a closet.
Old 19th October 2020 | Show parent
  #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates View Post
New to NS10s but the myth that if it sounds good on NS10s, it sounds good on anything has already been busted for me. The first project I mixed as a total novice back in 1991 sounded terrible. Full of mud and murkiness. Well, I played that CD on the NS10s, and guess what? It sounded fine. None of the thick mud that can be clearly heard on my other two sets of monitors. It sounds far better than any other monitors I've ever played that CD on. So...you could have a huge slog of muddy crap down below 100hz and if you mixed only on these, you wouldn't know it was there ( unless you are one of those hard to believe mixers who claim they can judge the bass by watching how much the woofers move?) I know many of you claim to do it but how could anyone possibly rely on NS10s alone for mixing?
Hello, there’s always the old trick of looking at it from the side. If the driver is going a little too crazy, you dial it back a bit. Good luck
Old 19th October 2020
  #646
I used to fuse NS-10's in a hip hop studio because I tired of replacing woofers. Before replacement we would play "shoot the woofer" with a pencil and the Uptown moving faders. Press "shoot" and the faders would shoot up at the fastest speed to launch the pencil into the speaker. Extra points for hitting the dust cone or "bullseye".
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #647
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Hello chaps, interesting thread. Although I'm now paranoid about underpowering my NS10M Studio's and having to replace expensive drivers.

I have a Harman Kardon PM650 VXI amplifier from 1988. Always thought it a clean and powerful amp and like the way it sounds with the NS10's. But am I risking damage?

Published stats:

Continuous Average Power (FTC) Both channels driven, 20-20'000hz 70w pc @ less than 0.09% THD into 8ohms.

HCC (High Instantaneous current capability) +- 35 Amps.

There's much trumpeting in the owners manual about this HCC feature, but I'm only vaguely aware of what it is? Like somebody else pointed out - wattage isn't everything. Will this feature help matters with regards to sufficiently powering my NS10's?

Also, the amp has two sets of speaker outputs which can be both operated simultaneously. Would somehow wiring these together to power one set of speakers (the NS10's) double the available power? If so, how would one do that?

Cheers!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #648
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Decided to get the Avantone version. Can't say I love the way they sound but I love working on them and I love the results. Sure I would like to add some vanity monitors like ATC 20s, and I might some day, but I'm good for now. I do have other monitors on which I can check the bass so that's no problem.

*don't have the patience for digging around looking for used gear. Some do, some don't. Glad they made these.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I used to fuse NS-10's in a hip hop studio because I tired of replacing woofers. .
I learned how to push ns-10's by blowing my fair share of fuses I started my career on NS-10's in a studio in Times Square working with mainly hiphop/r&b and pop artists. In other words tons of bass. It's always funny to see people who complain about the (lack) of low end on ns-10's. I've learned from many engineers who literally used only ns-10's and their bass always sounded amazing. Look at the woofers move, it'll tell ya.
Old 1 week ago
  #650
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Do they sound as sh!tty as 2001 iPod earbuds?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goom View Post
Do they sound as sh!tty as 2001 iPod earbuds?
You ever see earbuds on a $700k Console meter bridge ?
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