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Checking Phase...
Old 23rd August 2005
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
BJohnston's Avatar
 

Checking Phase...

Just wondering how you guys (gals) are checking phase when tracking drums? Specifically when it comes to cooridinating the snare drum with the OH's. I usually leave it up to my ears to determine phase problems. I always check everything in mono while recording, playing with mic placement when needed, using the phase button if needed. What are your methods?

BJohnston
Old 23rd August 2005
  #2
ink
Here for the gear
 

Listening in mono is my usual method. I'll glance at Spectrafoo's scope if it is nearby.

This interests me for helping to deliver a pain-free setup in advance of musican's arriving, especially when cobbling together my "computer" and trunk of odd cables to record in the warehouse where I'm currently recording.

http://www.mercenary.com/cricket.html
Old 23rd August 2005
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
theAdmiral's Avatar
 

phase

3:1 rule, use x/y stereo technique, check in mono
Old 23rd August 2005
  #4
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
While I'm getting drum sounds together every mic gets checked against the overheads in mono or one speaker mono. If there's a scope around I'll look at that too but I use it as a second reference rather then a hard fast rule. You'll never get everything perfectly in phase but you can get damn close. And besides, sometimes phase cancellation is a good thing, it's just another tool in the box.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #5
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
I pan everything to one side and flip all the buttons. Before that I mesure my overheads and room mics from the BD/SD.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #6
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

measure from the BD
Nothings in phase, the worst thing is 50 or 230 or pick some other babylonian numbers.
Besides the different angles that you have between the mics in multi mic'ing techniques there's also delay, early reflections and resonance which cause phase issues.
When moving mics around it's easier to hear what's really bad than what's really good.
Set up 1 mic that is STONE, adjust another mic somewhat logically and listen to it out of phase with the first mic untill the second mic sound the weakest worst, flip phase and you will have placed another mic in the right spot. out of phase proof.
Most mics and gear are pin2 hot, this is something to consider that electrically everything should be just dandy in phasetopia. Delay is the n°1 phasebuster, angle is the next. you should contemplate this very carefully and decide where to put your mics within 10 min tops including stand moving, because if you don't everyone will get bored and not want to play anymore.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound
I pan everything to one side and flip all the buttons. Before that I mesure my overheads and room mics from the BD/SD.
Interesting. What are you measuring for when you do this? What distances do you use from the kick and snare to the overheads? How does it vary from drummer to drummer? And for the rooms what do you do?

Cheers,
John
Old 23rd August 2005
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
Interesting. What are you measuring for when you do this? What distances do you use from the kick and snare to the overheads? How does it vary from drummer to drummer? And for the rooms what do you do?
I do this same thing sometimes. For me, it's not so much a matter of "I always put my room mics 12.5 feet from the bottom of the snare stand" or anything, but more about keeping pairs of spaced mics equidistant from a source. You don't even need a tape measure or anything (although I do actually have a tape measure that reads in Hz--how nerdy is that?). I usually just use a mic cable and have the drummer hold one end on the center of the snare drum (when measuring overheads) and make sure the mics are the same distance from that spot. For room mics, I'll usually do the same thing, measuring from the center of the bottom of the front bass drum hoop. I like doing this with the bass drum in the room mics because it better localizes the low frequency content in the center of the stereo image.

This is by no means an absolute, but sometimes it's a way to get things a little more solid a little faster. It only take s a second to do and if I measure the mics and something sounds weird, I'll certainly move them.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Old 24th August 2005
  #9
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Hobbyist's Avatar
 

Ears definitely. But this http://www.galaxyaudio.com/CRICKET.html can really help get you started.
Old 24th August 2005
  #10
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgarges
You don't even need a tape measure or anything (although I do actually have a tape measure that reads in Hz--how nerdy is that?). \
Seriosuly?!?!

I want one!!!!!! Post a link!!!!

That's just way too kool for skool!!!
Old 24th August 2005
  #11
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
Interesting. What are you measuring for when you do this? What distances do you use from the kick and snare to the overheads? How does it vary from drummer to drummer? And for the rooms what do you do?

Cheers,
John

Like Chris, I measure the SD to the OH to try to get the SD nice and center and solid. If that screws with the BD I might shift things a bit. For room mics I really like the mics are the lowest height for a straight "standard" stand. I have someone hold a mic cable to the top of the BD outer rim. I put the room mics at the same distance to each other.

I don’t have any set dimensions or anything. In my room the room mic are usually between 7-9 feet. OH will be from two sticks to whatever feels/sounds right.

At TapeOpCon we had three close room mics on a Latch Lake "tree." I (along with Jeff from Latch Lake) measure all of them equal to the BD. When we pulled them up Joe Chiccarelli looked at me and said, "the trick works, those sound great."
Old 24th August 2005
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
Seriosuly?!?!

I want one!!!!!! Post a link!!!!

That's just way too kool for skool!!!
Yeah. I told my girlfriend that I'm now officially the most awesome AND nerdiest person in my apartment building.

A friend of mine who works for a well-known studio design firm gave it to me. He told me about it a while back and I begged him to score one for me. I have no idea if this is something commercially available or a small-run/promotional thing. It reads from 155Hz to 10k with 1/4 wavelength measurements from 800Hz down, too. Pretty sweet.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Old 24th August 2005
  #13
Lives for gear
 

Oh, for whatever it's worth, too, I also scored a really cool little SESCom half-rack sized phase meter off of ebay last year. I don't think they're still made, but it's a cool little box. It's got XLR ins and outs on the back and an input level adjustment knob on the front, along with an X-Y sort of display screen and a few quick reference markings on the front (for what the screen should look like for left only, right only, mono, 90 degrees out, 180 degrees out, etc.). I usually throw it up on the meter bridge right between the nearfileds and it's a cool quick reference thing. It really helps if I'm working in a room with which I'm not familiar, especially if there's funny imaging issues in the control room.

Here's a picture:
http://www.chrisgarges.com/images/SESComPM.html

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Old 24th August 2005
  #14
Lives for gear
phasetone from tritone digital is amazing... doesn't check phase, but put whatever signal into it, try different settings at different frequencies, and in a very short while, you'll know where it sounds best!

and it's free.

the phase controls in hydratone EQ are making that thing more and more indispensable to me. hydra ain't free but worth every penny.

i don't have anything to do with that company.
Old 24th August 2005
  #15
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgarges
Yeah. I told my girlfriend that I'm now officially the most awesome AND nerdiest person in my apartment building.

A friend of mine who works for a well-known studio design firm gave it to me. He told me about it a while back and I begged him to score one for me. I have no idea if this is something commercially available or a small-run/promotional thing. It reads from 155Hz to 10k with 1/4 wavelength measurements from 800Hz down, too. Pretty sweet.
No doubt!

I'll have to bug the guys at the local pro tool shop about it, I stopped in today to score some 703 for a project LOL

BTW, I'm diggin' on the pile of Chuck's that's on your websites first page.

Dig it.
Old 24th August 2005
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
BTW, I'm diggin' on the pile of Chuck's that's on your websites first page.

Dig it.
Thanks!

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
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