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different mic pres' "sound"
Old 11th July 2009
  #1
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fuzzface777's Avatar
 

different mic pres' "sound"

I have talked to some reputable engineers who told me about NOT worrying too much about the "sound" or "color" of a mic pre....sayin' it was neglible at best. Most engineers just said pick up one of the pre's I mentioned (btw usual suspects). However, when I heard firsthand James Lugo's amp shootout, the difference between TWO Neve's 1272 and 1073 was discernible. The 1073 being more open sounding, the 1272 with softer top end. Now maybe some of these top engineers, do not think that kind of difference among pre's is important, but I do.

It would be impossible the world to pick the flattest, most natural sounding mic pre is a basis for comparison. However, I did easily HEAR the difference between the Neve's. Would anyone dare to describe the sound of an API, Chandler TG-2 or LTD-1 ? Or how about a Daking, or Great River? -with actual hours working on them...
I supposed someone could use the 1073 and or 1272 as a basis for comparison since everyone here can download Lugo's sound files when he was choosing whether to use the 1272 or the 1073.
Old 24th July 2009
  #2
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too impossible to answer in context of Lugo's recordings?
Old 24th July 2009
  #3
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzface777 View Post
I have talked to some reputable engineers who told me about NOT worrying too much about the "sound" or "color" of a mic pre....sayin' it was neglible at best.
I agree with that opinion too. Of all the things to fret over, choosing among competent preamps is near the bottom of the list.

Quote:
when I heard firsthand James Lugo's amp shootout, the difference between TWO Neve's 1272 and 1073 was discernible.
I haven't heard those files, but if the test compares different performances then it's not valid. Nobody can sing or play exactly the same twice in a row. If a singer moves even half an inch that can change the sound for acoustic reasons having nothing to do with the microphone or other gear.

--Ethan
Old 24th July 2009
  #4
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
I agree with that opinion too. Of all the things to fret over, choosing among competent preamps is near the bottom of the list.



I haven't heard those files, but if the test compares different performances then it's not valid. Nobody can sing or play exactly the same twice in a row. If a singer moves even half an inch that can change the sound for acoustic reasons having nothing to do with the microphone or other gear.

--Ethan

preamps don't matter
a/d doesn't matter
mics don't matter

ONLY THE ROOM!!!!! and IT's INSULATION MATTERS!!!!


I'm glad Zeppelin never listened to you. Just think we would never have that
Levee breaks drum sound in that lovely untreated hallway at Headley Grange



Should I throw away my 'One more from the road' skynrd record?
That was cut in an untreated room? Howabout Machine head?
untreated hotel room. Should I also burn my Allman's Fillmore East
and Live at Leeds? howabout Band of Gypsies? Did they have realtraps in 69?

Don't listen to Ethan. Some of the best records known to man were cut in untreated rooms. I'm not 100% positive but I'm not convinced the rolling stones mobile unit carried around a section filled with ownens 703 or rock wool
to treat all the castles , hotel rooms and 20,00 seat arenas that some of the best studio and live records were cut.

the preamp matters to a degree as much as the mic or the players.
A/D is maybe more important than the preamp.

Sure the room matters but so does everything else in the chain don't kid yourselves.


As far as preamps not being neglible. That is not true. Not at all true. Most pres have a signature sound
don't go crazy with them but they do make a difference and they do have their own unique textures
but any quality preamp will do the job that much is true.
Old 24th July 2009
  #5
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As someone kinda going through this process, of exploring mic pres, mics, and various combinations of gear, I can relate. On one hand, I can tell you unequivocally that my last TSID record owed more of it's sound to the guitar's pickups than any flavor of pre I used. On the other, I sure do like getting new mic pres!

Describing the "sound" of a pre is a bit misleading to me. I find that the interaction between the entire signal chain (much to my frustration, lol) is malleable enough that it can render some descriptions moot. You can get a thin sound out of a Neve (believe me, I done it), you can get a good clean recording out of a Chandler Germanium, you can find ways to grunge up a Millenium or Grace. I don't think "flavor" of pre is as important as quality of pre.

To used a very tired but still apt cliche, it's like cooking. Is the average palette going to know the chef used fresh tarragon or not? Probably not. Can you used $5000 caviar to make inedible crap? Certainly. But yes, better ingredients usually improve the food.

The problem is, playing with mics and mic pres is FUN. Just like playing with guitars and amps is fun. I have 16 channels of 9 different kinds of pre, and I have about 20 different mics. That amounts to MILLIONS of combinations. And feeling like you just got the perfect mic/pre combination on a source is like finding the one glory hole at the bus station with a woman on the other side.

So my point is that while certainly pres have sonic characteristics, descriptions can be as useful as their spec charts. Unfortunately for our pocketbooks, but fortunately for us as exploratory humans, the best thing to do is still to get these pres and play with them, with YOUR mics, with YOUR taste. What someone else loves about "my big fat Neve" might end up with you thinking "muddy overhyped low end crudmachine Neve".

So this is totally unhelpful, but Ethan is right in the sense that here are other steps in the chain to worry about that far more affect the final recording than between two pres, much less two of the same pre. And Allen is right in the sense that I KNOW, IT'S ONLY ROCK AND ROLL BUT I LIIIIIIKE IT!
Old 24th July 2009
  #6
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Fletcher once made the same argument that some Led Zep song was recorded in an untreated stone room, so by extension nobody needs acoustic treatment. Well, tell that to every owner of a million dollar studio. Yes, you can get a special effect that may be ultra cool by recording in a stairwell or whatever. But no sane recording engineer would want that sound on every track of every song he records.

--Ethan
Old 24th July 2009
  #7
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Fletcher's Avatar
Then again the owners of "million dollar recording studios" have PROFESSIONAL assistance with the treatment of their rooms.

As for the difference the O/P hear between A 1272 and A 1073 was more likely due to the maintenance of the units than the units themselves as they are for all intents and purposes THE SAME AMPLIFIER under 55db of gain [over 55 db of gain you get into an additional amplifier stage with the 1073]... or it could have had to do with how the gain on the 1272 was set up as there are a myriad of ways to do it wrong and most of the aftermarket 1272 set ups have some kind of incorrect gain structure to them.

As for trying to describe the difference in tone of other mic-pre's... well... let's think about that for a moment. Can you describe the difference in wall color between my living room and the hall leading to the second floor of my house? They're both kinda based around "gold" but they're distinctly different shades [most complimentary... my GF is a pretty damn good decorator!!].

Oh that's right... you've never been to my house and have ZERO frame of reference. Hmmmm

Frank Zappa once said that writing about music is like dancing about architecture... if you believe that premise [which I do] then writing about the tonal difference in mic-pre's is like interpretive dance about an elevator shaft.

Get the picture?

Peace.
Old 24th July 2009
  #8
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well, not every band kicks as much ass as zeppelin. i don't think it matters where they recorded their albums, sometimes talent outweighs any recoding gear or technique.

...obviously there are no set rules, but room treatment is a good thing.

...preamps do sound different, but as long as it is a highend pre, no need to fret cuz you'll get a good sound (if you know how)

A/D matters and so do mic's but to varying degrees depending on the talent, situation, engineer and a plethora of other circumstances.

why does everyone on here always try to make universal rules set in stone?
Old 24th July 2009
  #9
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And again Fletcher nailed it. I still have no idea how he can answer with fresh replies on topics that have been discussed on here hundreds of times.

Anyway, buy a GREAT mic pre. Use it for everything every day. Learn what happens when you drive it hard, when you ease up, etc etc. Forget about other mic preamps.

Then after dozens of songs, get another great mic pre. Do the same thing. Only after that will you *truly* appreciate the subtle things it can do.

That is what I did, started with a pair of API's and a Vintech. Years and years later I landed with Chandler Ltd, Great River, P1's and a 1073 (coming in two months).

I have no desire to look for anything else.

Why?

I can use any one of those and make a record beginning to end. Because I have done it before.
Old 24th July 2009
  #10
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Then again the owners of "million dollar recording studios" have PROFESSIONAL assistance with the treatment of their rooms.
Yes, exactly the same sort of PROFESSIONAL advice I provide for my customers. Unless you're somehow suggesting that Bob Clearmountain, Nile Rodgers, Barry Gibb, T Bone Burnett (he was a customer before he won our PVB last week), and a dozen other famous names are not sufficient to qualify me as PROFESSIONAL acoustician.

Quote:
Frank Zappa once said that writing about music is like dancing about architecture... if you believe that premise [which I do] then writing about the tonal difference in mic-pre's is like interpretive dance about an elevator shaft.
I almost agree, at least when there really is a difference. Most of the time there is no meaningful difference. All of the mic pre comparisons I've ever seen are fatally flawed because they compare different performances. Further, there are established words that can be used to describe audio qualities. This is not the same as musical qualities, which is what FZ was talking about. Timbre and tonality can be expressed as words, and they frequently are. All over Gearslutz, every single day.

--Ethan
Old 24th July 2009
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Then again the owners of "million dollar recording studios" have PROFESSIONAL assistance with the treatment of their rooms.

As for the difference the O/P hear between A 1272 and A 1073 was more likely due to the maintenance of the units than the units themselves as they are for all intents and purposes THE SAME AMPLIFIER under 55db of gain [over 55 db of gain you get into an additional amplifier stage with the 1073]... or it could have had to do with how the gain on the 1272 was set up as there are a myriad of ways to do it wrong and most of the aftermarket 1272 set ups have some kind of incorrect gain structure to them.

As for trying to describe the difference in tone of other mic-pre's... well... let's think about that for a moment. Can you describe the difference in wall color between my living room and the hall leading to the second floor of my house? They're both kinda based around "gold" but they're distinctly different shades [most complimentary... my GF is a pretty damn good decorator!!].

Oh that's right... you've never been to my house and have ZERO frame of reference. Hmmmm

Frank Zappa once said that writing about music is like dancing about architecture... if you believe that premise [which I do] then writing about the tonal difference in mic-pre's is like interpretive dance about an elevator shaft.

Get the picture?

Peace.

Fletcher knows Jimmy miller never cared about room treatment
right Mr. Fletcher?

Don't want a flame here but a good engineer can get beyond room treatment.
I suck at recording and I can do it. Mic and placment , Eq, gates, comps etc.... You don't need room treatment I'm sorry it's a plus. For some projects like something very polished I would want a treated room. If I'm recording **** kicking rock and roll band any room will do. Live records prove this. Records like Machine head and most zep records prove this as do most of the ealry 70's stones records.

Sorry Ethan you are wrong. Pop on the Allman Brothers at the Filmore Duane never sound sooooo good. what a drum(s) sound huh? Two drummers too? Love the sound of Frampton comes alive still after all these years. Did they treat
Oakland Stadium with rockwool before that classic 'Day on the Green Show'? Just ask Johnny Winter And......
Look!! I see Billy Powell's Keyboard throne next to the floor tom. that must have done the trick absorbing those tricky
low mid freqs. Listen to 'Captured Live!' recorded at this show. JW's biggest sounding record.




Room treatment? Yes it makes it all easier. Yes it helps you make PERFECT recording but you can make adjustments without room treatment.

With a $50 pre and $200 converter there are no adjustments no matter how good the room is treated

Does behrigner make acoustic panels? That would go great along w/ an ada8000 and a MIC800. Man that would rival the sound of a floyd record. Give it up and quit trying to brainwash people.

For the record room treatment does make a difference , yes it makes an optimal recording environment but you
can get the job done without it.

Yes you can. There are load of records that prove it
Old 24th July 2009
  #13
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Not to encourage the firestorm, but as a project studio guy, I'll just say this: It wasn't until I took Ethan's (and others) advice on focusing on better treating my control room that I was able to really discern the subtleties in difference between pres. What I've always taken away from the umpteen discussions on sound treatment is that it is far more critical in the monitoring/mixing area than the tracking area.

So while Zep albums were RECORDED in untreated spaces, I'm pretty sure they were MIXED in treated control rooms.

Until I got my control room at least nominally neutral, I could have bought handmade pres from Rupert himself and it wouldn't have done me much good if the sound is so smeared as to be unrepresentative of what's actually going to "tape". But to also agree with Allencollins, I moved all the sound treatment from my tracking room into my control room and improved both spaces.

I agree 100% with Infernal Device, get a great pre, use it until you have really grokked it, and then maybe look for something to add. The 500 series format seems really great for this, being able to add single channels for very reasonable.
Old 24th July 2009
  #14
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzface777 View Post
Here are the clips:
I don't see anything there that describes how the recordings were made. Again, if the musical performances were different for each preamp, the entire test is null and void.

--Ethan
Old 24th July 2009
  #15
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathMonkey View Post
So while Zep albums were RECORDED in untreated spaces, I'm pretty sure they were MIXED in treated control rooms.
Not only that, but a live concert recorded in a large venue is totally different than a recording made in someone's untreated bedroom. So yet again Allen is wrong and totally misses the point. Or knowingly puts up a straw man. Yep, I'm sure Allen has no room treatment. heh

--Ethan
Old 24th July 2009
  #16
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
...I'm glad Zeppelin never listened to you. Just think we would never have that
Levee breaks drum sound in that lovely untreated hallway at Headley Grange...
Presumably they chose to record there because they liked the sound of the place, so even if it only sounded good by chance, the room sound was still important to them.
Old 24th July 2009
  #17
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
Presumably they chose to record there because they liked the sound of the place, so even if it only sounded good by chance, the room sound was still important to them.
I'M sure it was NOT because these poor nowhere bands could not afford a better place...

Great gear is MORE forgiving, MORE versatile...IMHO...
I think Bob Clearmountain uses Mackie...
Old 24th July 2009
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Not only that, but a live concert recorded in a large venue is totally different than a recording made in someone's untreated bedroom. So yet again Allen is wrong and totally misses the point. Or knowingly puts up a straw man. Yep, I'm sure Allen has no room treatment. heh

--Ethan
I don't miss your point.
Your point is an has always been

BUY REAL TRAPS!!!!!!! Get you pompoms out ethan

I do have treated studio. Paid 6k to have someone come including materials.
It's flawless. But I also have good preamps and good conversion and an analog deck which I prize more

I can still make quality recordings without a treated room. Can you? ??? ........ that's what I thought
don't need to answer that

everyone's answer is you don't good pres or a/d but you need a treated room!!!!
nah. If you know your room (s) and their inconsistencies you work around it
you improvise.
do have a treated room I think it makes a huge difference It makes it easier
But I don't need it to make good recordings. GOT IT?


If you really new anything about recording youd know the work arounds. I'd gladly tell you about them
but you probably wouldn't get it. They don't have anything to do with selling product. It makes use of general household items
Adjustments and improvisation and your ears.
Old 24th July 2009
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
I don't miss your point.
Your point is an has always been

BUY REAL TRAPS!!!!!!! Get you pompoms out ethan

I do have treated studio. Paid 6k to have someone come including materials.
It's flawless. But I also have good preamps and good conversion and an analog deck which I prize more

I can still make quality recordings without a treated room. Can you? ??? ........ that's what I thought
don't need to answer that

everyone's answer is you don't good pres or a/d but you need a treated room!!!!
nah. If you know your room (s) and their inconsistencies you work around it
you improvise.
do have a treated room I think it makes a huge difference It makes it easier


But I don't need it to make good recordings. GOT IT?


If you really new anything about recording youd know the work arounds. I'd gladly tell you about them
but you probably wouldn't get it. They don't have anything to do with selling product. It makes use of general household items
Adjustments and improvisation and your ears.
No kidding, if he ever starts a thread about viral marketing on internet forums I'll be sure to derail it by going on about preamps.
Old 24th July 2009
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathMonkey View Post
So while Zep albums were RECORDED in untreated spaces, I'm pretty sure they were MIXED in treated control rooms.
anyone??
Old 24th July 2009
  #21
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevil View Post
anyone??
I would say yes...
BECAUSE great monitors and a great environment is essential IMHO..
Old 24th July 2009
  #22
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Mark Kaufman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathMonkey View Post

So while Zep albums were RECORDED in untreated spaces, I'm pretty sure they were MIXED in treated control rooms.
Here's the story on Physical Graffiti:

Quote:
Additional overdubs were added and the final mixing of the album was performed in October 1974 by Keith Harwood at Olympic Studios, London.
Source

And a cool interview with Jimmy Page just for kicks:

http://www.iem.ac.ru/zeppelin/docs/i...ews/page_93.gw
Old 25th July 2009
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman View Post
Here's the story on Physical Graffiti:

Source

And a cool interview with Jimmy Page just for kicks:

http://www.iem.ac.ru/zeppelin/docs/i...ews/page_93.gw
I was kinda just making a point that not everything room needs treatment
you may or may not want the rawness of certain 'spaces'

anyhoo. Preamps are very important in a treated or untreated room
sure folks go overboard with all this color and texture boutique stuff (me too)
but one or two quality pres or a quality console is needed

I know guys have recorded records on portastudios and 1/4in 8track
but in reality 99% of that stuff sounds mediocre or crappy. Sure it can be done
Blues Sarencino did an 8 track cassette record that was awesome but
then again he is awesome.

My point is I'm just sick of ' Is your room treated'? and yet they have a behringer ada8000 with a behringer eurodesk

all I know is I don't really consider myself an engineer at all and I've got major label quality drum sounds in basements and living rooms. And 10,000's of others have too.

Ideally you want a treated room when making a record. But then again Ideally you want $1,000,000 budget w/ 6 months blocked out at Westlake with Bruce Sweiden or Mike Shipley behind the desk

You make do with what you have but a good recording device and a good preamp is gonna go much further than a treated room. There are 100's of demos and records to prove that. That's all I was saying.

Ethan saying live records are a different animal is wrong. Don't most folks strive to make 'live' sounding records these days? Sure maybe not with as much ambiance as a real live record but space and ambiance is what separates the men from the boys. To me I would love to make a record that sounds as good as The Allmans at the Fillmore or Skynyrd One more from the road. Capturing all that cosmic energy? I'm sorry I'm not thinking room treatment when Bonham kicks in to levee break
I'm also not think about realtraps when I listen to Page's guitar tone in Black dog. Since it is a direct guitar track I don't think room treatment was an issue. Point being you improvise but one thing is for sure that record sounds huge more cuz of the 16track 2in running at 15ips through a helios or whatever than it does from the treated overdub and mix room at olympic that is for sure.

But again I spent a ****load of money on my rooms I'm happy I did. But If I didn't have
treated rooms it wouldn't stop me from making records. But I have to say If all I had was an ada8000
and a mackie board I'd pack it in because I don't know anyone who can make those sound like a truly warm and punchy professional recording
Old 25th July 2009
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
I was kinda just making a point that not everything room needs treatment
you may or may not want the rawness of certain 'spaces'

anyhoo. Preamps are very important in a treated or untreated room
sure folks go overboard with all this color and texture boutique stuff (me too)
but one or two quality pres or a quality console is needed

I know guys have recorded records on portastudios and 1/4in 8track
but in reality 99% of that stuff sounds mediocre or crappy. Sure it can be done
Blues Sarencino did an 8 track cassette record that was awesome but
then again he is awesome.

My point is I'm just sick of ' Is your room treated'? and yet they have a behringer ada8000 with a behringer eurodesk

all I know is I don't really consider myself an engineer at all and I've got major label quality drum sounds in basements and living rooms. And 10,000's of others have too.

Ideally you want a treated room when making a record. But then again Ideally you want $1,000,000 budget w/ 6 months blocked out at Westlake with Bruce Sweiden or Mike Shipley behind the desk

You make do with what you have but a good recording device and a good preamp is gonna go much further than a treated room. There are 100's of demos and records to prove that. That's all I was saying.

Ethan saying live records are a different animal is wrong. Don't most folks strive to make 'live' sounding records these days? Sure maybe not with as much ambiance as a real live record but space and ambiance is what separates the men from the boys. To me I would love to make a record that sounds as good as The Allmans at the Fillmore or Skynyrd One more from the road. Capturing all that cosmic energy? I'm sorry I'm not thinking room treatment when Bonham kicks in to levee break
I'm also not think about realtraps when I listen to Page's guitar tone in Black dog. Since it is a direct guitar track I don't think room treatment was an issue. Point being you improvise but one thing is for sure that record sounds huge more cuz of the 16track 2in running at 15ips through a helios or whatever than it does from the treated overdub and mix room at olympic that is for sure.

But again I spent a ****load of money on my rooms I'm happy I did. But If I didn't have
treated rooms it wouldn't stop me from making records. But I have to say If all I had was an ada8000
and a mackie board I'd pack it in because I don't know anyone who can make those sound like a truly warm and punchy professional recording
Oh my God I think I agree with allencollins, what the **** is going on?
(Not so much with the Live thing, though as venues usually have been professionally designed, plus you don't need bass traps when you've got a few thousand people in the audience.)
Old 25th July 2009
  #25
pre-amps are important to get the most out of your mics.

the room is important to get the most out of your sound-source.

bad reflections (as opposed to good ones) can kill a sound.

so for the masses, room treatment is imperative, as you can always add reverb later. and no matter how good your converters, mics or pres are, if the room does not give a pleasing tone, then the only thing all those expensive pieces of gear will be doing is representing your room's faults in incredibly high quality.
Old 25th July 2009
  #26
Gear Nut
 

To get back on topic, I kind of agree that mic pres don't change the sound as much as repositioning the mic in the room or changing the mic or adding screens etc.
When I'm unhappy with the sound I'll change the mic or positioning. Can't recall many occastions when changing the mic pre fixed what I was hearing.

However, I work with the philosophy there's kind of 3 flavours of mic pre.
API, Neve and super clean GML types.
Aggressive, Warm and Transparent.

However as much as I always like recording vocals on Neves, whenever I have to use something else, I'm always suprised that "It sounds great."

Oh yeah tube pres as well.. don't use them as often. Although, saying that, same thing again, always can get a good sound with tubetech channel strip.

So I guess, when you're happy you got the right mic, right positioning/room. Then as long as you don't have a terrible pre, you're fine.

Oh .. if you do have a terrible pre, you can still get away with it! Just takes more effort!
Old 25th July 2009
  #27
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Well, of course a man that makes a living selling acoustic materials is going to tell you that you need them.

And a man that sells recording gear such as mics and preamps is going to tell you that you need better preamps.

There's nothing wrong with this, as both acoustic materials and top-notch recording equipment are very much part of the game.

With that said, i have been making recordings for 15+ years, some with terrible gear, some with great gear. Some of them were in treated rooms, some of them were in a bedroom or a garage with no treatment.

Can i hear differences? Of course.

Do my recordings made with terrible gear not sound that good compared to the ones i've done with great gear? Yes, but i've also become much more skilled with my technique over the years.

Is it the better gear alone? I'm not so sure...

Do the recordings i've made with no acoustic treatment sound bad compared to the ones i've done in treated rooms? Somewhat. Not drastically.

Bottom line for me is that acoustic treatment is not a be-all-end-all requirement to good sound. And neither is a certain mic preamp or other piece of recording gear.

More than anything else, it's what you do with what you have.
Old 25th July 2009
  #28
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by larry b View Post
Well, of course a man that makes a living selling acoustic materials is going to tell you that you need them.

And a man that sells recording gear such as mics and preamps is going to tell you that you need better preamps.

There's nothing wrong with this, as both acoustic materials and top-notch recording equipment are very much part of the game.

With that said, i have been making recordings for 15+ years, some with terrible gear, some with great gear. Some of them were in treated rooms, some of them were in a bedroom or a garage with no treatment.

Can i hear differences? Of course.

Do my recordings made with terrible gear not sound that good compared to the ones i've done with great gear? Yes, but i've also become much more skilled with my technique over the years.

Is it the better gear alone? I'm not so sure...

Do the recordings i've made with no acoustic treatment sound bad compared to the ones i've done in treated rooms? Somewhat. Not drastically.

Bottom line for me is that acoustic treatment is not a be-all-end-all requirement to good sound. And neither is a certain mic preamp or other piece of recording gear.

More than anything else, it's what you do with what you have.
you're right the bottom line is it is the sum of all parts. Ideally you want everything to be tops including the
room.

My point is simply give me a bad drum room and as long as I have eq. comps/gates and some reverb
The drums are gonna sound like they were cut in a treated room

If you're a purist and don't use any outboard then fine in your world you need a treated drum room.
I'm not a purist. I don't use samples but I like my outboard.......

I have a room now that sounds killer so I don't have to use as much processing and can get a real natural drum sound if need be. But if I didn't have the drum room I wouldn't be losing any sleep over it. It would just be an extra 15 minutes to patch in all the outboard to make up from the bad room.

This last winter I did a drum session at someones ski chalet in the NH White mountains. No room treatment
came out friggin killer. I guess I got lucky. Thanks gawd for Vistalites w/ 26in kick. 22 in floor tom sounded huge.

I mean lets face reality, not too many of us are recording for labels Listening to the final product on an ipod or Myspace at 22k 16bit, the least of your worries is bass traps and owens corning every 4ft or whatver.

Average Joe couldn't tell the difference between a treated room or a non treated room. Not to beat a dead horse but when I hear stuff like the white stripes or Nirvana, the drum sound to me like it's either bad engineering or a bad room who knows? maybe it's both.

Pop on Mob Rules by sabbath or Yes 90125 and there is your treated room and engineering perfection. But who cares, all 4 of those records sold a boatload regardless of sonic quality or what I think.

Any competent engineer is gonna get a quality sound in any room or any environment. That's why they have eq , dynamics/gates and reverb. It's not rocket science slapping up mics. To get a good vocal sound or acoustic gtr
a dead room will do. You can make one of those with moving blankets

repeat after me ...... Is your room treated?

Ask yourself this......
Does an Api preamp sound like a bad preamp capturing an untreated room? or does an untreated room sound like a bad room that was captured by the api preamp?

That is the question my friends . Figure that out and you will no longer need to seek the truth. Because you have the truth
Old 25th July 2009
  #29
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
I think the best thing that someone could take away from this thread is that; some people benefit from having a variety of preamp flavors and some don't. Find out which one of those people you are.
Old 25th July 2009
  #30
Gear Addict
 
lobsty's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
I don't miss your point.
If you really new anything about recording youd know the work arounds. I'd gladly tell you about them
but you probably wouldn't get it. They don't have anything to do with selling product. It makes use of general household items
Adjustments and improvisation and your ears.
At the risk of running severely OT (and getting a severe spanking) I'd be curious to know your work arounds
Always doing them myself and curious about other methods too...
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