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different mic pres' "sound"
Old 25th July 2009
  #31
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lobsty View Post
At the risk of running severely OT (and getting a severe spanking) I'd be curious to know your work arounds
Always doing them myself and curious about other methods too...
I know exactly what he's talking about...
My problem with Ethan is NOT that he sells acoustics products, it's that he seems to be one of those guys that you have to PROVE what you hear...he CAN'T Hear it..therefore IT CAN NOT EXISTS...

Mic pres, mics, converters, and other thing make NO difference, BUT his panels WILL...
Sure acoustics matter, so does about 50 other things...
Old 25th July 2009
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
...My problem with Ethan is NOT that he sells acoustics products, it's that he seems to be one of those guys that you have to PROVE what you hear...he CAN'T Hear it..therefore IT CAN NOT EXISTS...

Mic pres, mics, converters, and other thing make NO difference, BUT his panels WILL...
Sure acoustics matter, so does about 50 other things...
Well, Ethan works in a domain where orders of magnitude in frequency response and transient response are the rule - unlike the world of preamps, converters and other electronic systems where differences are very subtle in comparison. So given his professional focus I don't find it remarkable he challenges folks to substantiate their claims.
Old 25th July 2009
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
Well, Ethan works in a domain where orders of magnitude in frequency response and transient response are the rule - unlike the world of preamps, converters and other electronic systems where differences are very subtle in comparison. So given his professional focus I don't find it remarkable he challenges folks to substantiate their claims.
WOW, sorry you don't get it either....
Top engineers don't feel that way at all...
They listen, decide, use...
Old 25th July 2009
  #34
I've come to believe everything is about equal in importance. All this talk about what "top engineers and producers" do...don't you think a lot of them have rooms they prefer to work in? Experienced engineers know different spaces have different sounds that work for different things...just like preamps and microphones. There's nothing wrong with that.

In my little control room in my house room treatment made a big difference in the way material plays back in terms of balance in the frequency spectrum and an increase in the stereo spread, just like using a U47 over a C414 makes a big difference in a vocal recording. Just try to invest a little in every aspect of your recording that your budget allows. If you have a few thousand dollars it would probably be a better investment to spend $2500 on recording equipment and $500 on a GIK Room Kit then it would be to spend the entire $3000 on preamps, converters, and microphones.
Old 25th July 2009
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
WOW, sorry you don't get it either....
Top engineers don't feel that way at all...
They listen, decide, use...
Michael modifies/designs microphones and used to work with David Blackmer, I think he knows what he's qualified to say the differences are very subtle with a lot of this stuff.
Old 25th July 2009
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upinflames View Post
Michael modifies/designs microphones and used to work with David Blackmer, I think he knows what he's qualified to say the differences are very subtle with a lot of this stuff.
You missed the point as well..
I also said NOTHING about HIS mics, OR background...
I design and build VERY high end mic pres, so what.. the end user DECIDES what they like/use.. NOT ME...

Jolly mods mics? Right? Yes...
SO, BEFORE someone buys his mic someone has to PROVE it to Ethan WHY they bought his...

Understand my point?
Old 25th July 2009
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
BUY REAL TRAPS!!!!!!! Get you pompoms out ethan
I purposely disable my sig in threads like this because microphone preamps have nothing to do with my company or products. Did I say anything about buying my products? All I did was agree with the OP when he mentioned that a number of pro engineers said mic pres do not vary much! And they don't. At least not the competent models.

BTW, I never said that preamps don't matter. It's just that these days they're all good enough to get great results. Of course the preamp in a 40 year old Radio Shack PA mixer will sound like ass. So preamps do matter. But preamps don't have to cost $500 or more per channel for professional results. That's my entire point in one sentence.

--Ethan
Old 25th July 2009
  #38
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
Ethan saying live records are a different animal is wrong. Don't most folks strive to make 'live' sounding records these days?
I said live recordings in a large venue like the photos you posted.

Dude, you have to stop putting your words into my mouth to try to make your (incorrect) point. Got it?

--Ethan
Old 25th July 2009
  #39
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly View Post
given his professional focus I don't find it remarkable he challenges folks to substantiate their claims.
No kidding. The more these things fall into the domain of belief, the more angry the believers and apologists become. The rule among skeptics is "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof." And the idea that one competent preamp is noticeably superior to another is extraordinary IMO. A microphone preamp is a very simple circuit to design! This is not rocket science folks. As soon as someone says this brand or that has a wider sound or fuller mids etc, I know they're imagining it because competent preamps don't vary in those ways. But perception varies in exactly those ways.

Bottom line, even if I'm being total a jerk by demanding proof of your beliefs, why not just present that proof and shut me up for good? You'll be a hero to all your friends! Go for it Mike (Keith, not Michael Joly). Really.

--Ethan
Old 25th July 2009
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
No kidding. The more these things fall into the domain of belief, the more angry the believers and apologists become. The rule among skeptics is "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof." And the idea that one competent preamp is noticeably superior to another is extraordinary IMO. A microphone preamp is a very simple circuit to design! This is not rocket science folks. As soon as someone says this brand or that has a wider sound or fuller mids etc, I know they're imagining it because competent preamps don't vary in those ways. But perception varies in exactly those ways.

Bottom line, even if I'm being total a jerk by demanding proof of your beliefs, why not just present that proof and shut me up for good? You'll be a hero to all your friends! Go for it Mike (Keith, not Michael Joly). Really.

--Ethan
OK Ethan here's a challenge:
You design/build a mic pre...
I will design/build a bass trap.
And see who's is chosen by more...
And you CAN NOT have ANY help with the pre...
By the way I have already built better looking for less money bass traps...
So I'M two steps ahead of you...
Old 25th July 2009
  #41
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Mike, this is total bull****, and unwarranted insults against me and my company, and you know it. Your proposal for us to each build stuff and have the public assess them is preposterous. Why don't you actually prove the point you're trying to make? Whatever that is. The only point I've seen you make is insulting me.

Edit: Since you're so determined to turn this into a pissing contest, I'll tell you what: You send me your very best preamp, and I'll split one microphone to your preamp and to my Mackie 1202 mixer. Then I'll record both at once and post clips here for people to vote on. That at least is practical. Heck, my Mackie 1202 isn't even the newer VLZ type. It's an original model I bought in the 1990s. I'll record a jingly sounding tambourine to exercise the high end, and also my cello. How can you go wrong? Deal?

--Ethan
Old 25th July 2009
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Mike, this is total bull****, and unwarranted insults against me and my company, and you know it. Your proposal for us to each build stuff and have the public assess them is preposterous. Why don't you actually prove the point you're trying to make? Whatever that is. The only point I've seen you make is insulting me.

Edit: Since you're so determined to turn this into a pissing contest, I'll tell you what: You send me your very best preamp, and I'll split one microphone to your preamp and to my Mackie 1202 mixer. Then I'll record both at once and post clips here for people to vote on. That at least is practical. Heck, my Mackie 1202 isn't even the newer VLZ type. It's an original model I bought in the 1990s. I'll record a jingly sounding tambourine to exercise the high end, and also my cello. How can you go wrong? Deal?

--Ethan
I was wondering WHEN your were going to pull the old "everyone's picking on me"
And WHO will be the judge of your test? You?
SO you don't believe what engineers have said ALREADY about my pre?
If not, then why the hell should ANYONE believe what you have on your site???

I'M done, trust me, it makes NO difference what you have to say about pres, mics, converters ect, the guys who REALLY uses them for a living are the ones I believe...

AND it does NOT matter if they are a WELL known engineer or not, for the 100th time THEY decide what THEY like/use NOT ME OR YOU.....

They don't have to prove WHY they use something, anything...

By the way Ethan, you missed my point as well, this was NOT about your traps versus MY mic pre, it was that for some reason you feel the whole world HAS to prove WHY they buy mic pre A over B, or converter A over B ect...

And another thing YOU were the one that FIRST said "anyone can build a mic pre"
I was NOT the one that said "anyone can build a bass trap"
Old 25th July 2009
  #43
This thread is stupid, I think this should go to the moan zone or be closed. I think every is "missing the point" because there isn't one to be had.
Old 25th July 2009
  #44
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
And WHO will be the judge of your test? You?
Apparently you missed where I wrote above:
"I'll record both at once and post clips here for people to vote on."
Quote:
I'M done, trust me, it makes NO difference what you have to say about pres, mics, converters ect
Does this mean you will never again pop up in a thread like this to insult me and refute what I say? Really? That would be most excellent!

Of course, we both know that will never happen. Mike, at this point I think you need to put up or shut up. I can't believe you're backing down from a comparison of one microphone split to your preamp and my aging Mackie 1202. I bet a lot of people here would like to listen to that comparison!

Quote:
my point ... was that for some reason you feel the whole world HAS to prove WHY they buy mic pre A over B, or converter A over B ect.
Not quite. People can buy whatever they want, and that's fine with me. But when they tell others what to buy based on opinions that may not be well-founded, that's when I pipe up. Especially when the prospective purchaser needs to spend very wisely due to limited funds.

--Ethan
Old 25th July 2009
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Apparently you missed where I wrote above:
"I'll record both at once and post clips here for people to vote on."





Not quite. People can buy whatever they want, and that's fine with me. But when they tell others what to buy based on opinions that may not be well-founded, that's when I pipe up. Especially when the prospective purchaser needs to spend very wisely due to limited funds.

--Ethan
Does this include bass traps...
You were the one that backed down...
YOU put up or shut up...
Old 25th July 2009
  #46
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Apparently you missed where I wrote above:
How could anyone take this fool and his cat seriously?
Old 25th July 2009
  #47
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

How many people here think it would be a useful and fair comparison of mic pre variations if I compare one of Mike Keith's preamps to the preamp in my aging Mackie? Show of hands?

I'm also glad to have anyone visit and supervise, to ensure the comparison is fair and unbiased. Anyone, from either side of the fence is welcome. Let's put this to bed for once and for all.

--Ethan
Old 25th July 2009
  #48
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To the original poster:

If I brought you to my favorite ice cream store and explained the 25 different flavors they had in great glorious detail, you'd still probably order a different flavor than me based on YOUR personal preference.

We're all aiming at different targets.

The best way to get into the flavor game is to buy just one great one. Doesn't matter which one. Neve, API, Chandler, Great River, Daking etc. Just buy one and start making records with it.

Then, when you have more money, try out a few others compared to your first one. Now you have a frame of reference that makes sense to you with your microphones, in your room, recording your clients music.

Build from there. Have fun.

Cheers.
Old 25th July 2009
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Apparently you missed where I wrote above:
"I'll record both at once and post clips here for people to vote on."


Of course, we both know that will never happen. Mike, at this point I think you need to put up or shut up. I can't believe you're backing down from a comparison of one microphone split to your preamp and my aging Mackie 1202. I bet a lot of people here would like to listen to that comparison!



--Ethan
i've been following this thread and to be honest, i really do think, Mike, that you need to cool it. seriously. you're putting words into Ethan's mouth and it really it totally out of line. as it is, i personally have had A LOT of advice from Ethan even before i had a couple of his traps. and i continued to get advice from him without his even knowing i owned a couple of them.

he's right. either take him up on his offer for a direct comparison of the two pres or just shut up - he's actually trying to get this thread back on topic by demonstrating a real life scenario. this is very generous of him as it takes time and effort to doing so, and it's a demonstration of his dedication to finding answers in audio rather than slating other people's.

...and yes, i'm sure even i could build a preamp. it would probably either be really crap, or expensive to make. either way, it aint happening
Old 25th July 2009
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Apparently you missed where I wrote above:
Oh god, that foolish man and his cat again....
Old 25th July 2009
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-the-sax View Post
i've been following this thread and to be honest, i really do think, Mike, that you need to cool it. seriously. you're putting words into Ethan's mouth and it really it totally out of line. as it is, i personally have had A LOT of advice from Ethan even before i had a couple of his traps. and i continued to get advice from him without his even knowing i owned a couple of them.

he's right. either take him up on his offer for a direct comparison of the two pres or just shut up - he's actually trying to get this thread back on topic by demonstrating a real life scenario. this is very generous of him as it takes time and effort to doing so, and it's a demonstration of his dedication to finding answers in audio rather than slating other people's.

...and yes, i'm sure even i could build a preamp. it would probably either be really crap, or expensive to make. either way, it aint happening
IF Ethan is your buddy then great...
I think it's funny that NO ONE has said anything about MY challenge...
This is such a waste of MY time...

And WHERE did I say ONLY I Can build mic pres or some BS?????
YOUR adding crap too
Old 25th July 2009
  #52
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
NO ONE has said anything about MY challenge.
What challenge did you offer that would contribute to finding out what differences there are between preamps?

BTW, I believe so strongly in the value of a comparison that I'm willing to buy whatever splitter / transformer / etc Mike chooses and pay for it out of my own pocket. Just for this test.

--Ethan
Old 25th July 2009
  #53
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
What challenge did you offer that would contribute to finding out what differences there are between preamps?

BTW, I believe so strongly in the value of a comparison that I'm willing to buy whatever splitter / transformer / etc Mike chooses and pay for it out of my own pocket. Just for this test.

--Ethan
Oh god, this fool and his cat are so irritating and full of ****. I'm surprised anyone responds to him.
Old 25th July 2009
  #54
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drybones's Avatar
 

Mic pres vs mics

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzface777 View Post
I have talked to some reputable engineers who told me about NOT worrying too much about the "sound" or "color" of a mic pre....
I can't state this more sincerely, the mics are more important for adding color. They are the sonic paint brushes. The best Great River mic pre can't make an SM57 sound like a U67. But the color differences between a Neumann KM84 and RCA DX77 on even a "reasonably priced" mic pre is huge.

So if I have money burning a hole in my pocket and I want new color, I buy a new mic.

drybones (curt)
Old 25th July 2009
  #55
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So Ethan AGAIN you ignored my comment, many have already listened to my pre and gave their REAL comments.
That means nothing???
If so WHO on this site will mean something???
See my point? NO...
You SHOULD notice that NO WHERE did I suggest to the OP that he needed MY wonderful mic pre...if anything I have said MANY times on this site to do an A/B and decide for yourself...

How many times have you said "You need more bass traps"?? a few hundred times I would say...
Get my point yet???

Ask your buddy Bob Clearmountain, does he choose Mackies??
Old 25th July 2009
  #56
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
many have already listened to my pre and gave their REAL comments.
I think you're missing something very important here Mike. I never said your mic pres are not excellent. I'm sure they are! And I'm sure all of the very impressive user comments on your site are truthful and accurate.

Quote:
NO WHERE did I suggest to the OP that he needed MY wonderful mic pre ... How many times have you said "You need more bass traps"??
But I never tell people they need MY bass traps either. I spend way more time helping people with DIY traps and related issues than I do trying to sell stuff, much to my partner's chagrin.

This is why your posts are so disingenuous. You compare apples to oranges, put words in my mouth, and insult me and my products. If you'd stop being such a jerk every time I try to keep a thread on topic and focused on what matters and what does not matter with audio, we wouldn't keep having this problem.

--Ethan
Old 25th July 2009
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
I think you're missing something very important here Mike. I never said your mic pres are not excellent. I'm sure they are! And I'm sure all of the very impressive user comments on your site are truthful and accurate.



But I never tell people they need MY bass traps either. I spend way more time helping people with DIY traps and related issues than I do trying to sell stuff, much to my partner's chagrin.

This is why your posts are so disingenuous. You compare apples to oranges, put words in my mouth, and insult me and my products. If you'd stop being such a jerk every time I try to keep a thread on topic and focused on what matters and what does not matter with audio, we wouldn't keep having this problem.

--Ethan
EVERY time???
Are you serious???
You need help my friend, and I'M serious...
This is My LAST post on this thread, Happy???
I need more bass traps...
Old 25th July 2009
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
(Not so much with the Live thing, though as venues usually have been professionally designed, plus you don't need bass traps when you've got a few thousand people in the audience.)
the photo shows how pointless it is to hold it up as an example of an "untreated" space

on a stage that large, you are for all practical purposes "outdoors"

the sound runs away and most of it does not come back. It's like you had a space where everything but the floor was covered in traps.

you don't need panels to absorb reflections when there aren't any reflections
Old 25th July 2009
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
the photo shows how pointless it is to hold it up as an example of an "untreated" space

on a stage that large, you are for all practical purposes "outdoors"

the sound runs away and most of it does not come back. It's like you had a space where everything but the floor was covered in traps.

you don't need panels to absorb reflections when there aren't any reflections
there is no echo in an arena or a stadium?
hmmmm..........

surely not square reflections like a typical home studio
but a different problem all together
Old 25th July 2009
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
I purposely disable my sig in threads like this because microphone preamps have nothing to do with my company or products. Did I say anything about buying my products? All I did was agree with the OP when he mentioned that a number of pro engineers said mic pres do not vary much! And they don't. At least not the competent models.

BTW, I never said that preamps don't matter. It's just that these days they're all good enough to get great results. Of course the preamp in a 40 year old Radio Shack PA mixer will sound like ass. So preamps do matter. But preamps don't have to cost $500 or more per channel for professional results. That's my entire point in one sentence.

--Ethan
no ethan you hijack every thread with your room treatment agenda I have no agenda other than hating certain gts, pearl jam and the beatles production.


No shi* a stadium stage doesn't sound like a room in a basement but to make good live recordings you make a adjustments
based on the not so perfect acoustic environment. In a home studio you can (yes you can) do the same thing.

make adjustments.

You don't need a treated room to make great recordings. Sure it could be better and easier if you had a perfect acoustic environment. But then again it would be better if an other engineer was behind the desk too in some cases.

"Is your room treated? "

I'm sick of that reply. A treated room or control will not be at fault if your final recording sucks. I agree it is ideal to have a perfect room. But a good engineer can make a great recording in any room or environment under any circumstance

plain and simple.
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