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guitar intonation nightmare HELP!!!!
Old 30th June 2009
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
honestly guys do a check i bet you your guitar are not in tune aswell.
Nah, guitars can't be tuned, that's just a fact of life. But your's need a set up.
Old 30th June 2009
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
lalala
Are you taking a dump on me when I'm trying to help you?
Old 30th June 2009
  #33
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AudioWonderland's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
nope. nut is actually lower than how it came and wasnt as high as my gibson, actually the nut now is a little higher than the distance of the fret up from the one youre holding the string with, it that makes any sence in other words the nut is the lowest you can go before fret buzzing on the firs fret, and even like that i got sharp, but it was worse.

Then either the nut is incorrectly located or the frets are. Is this a new instrument? Every had the nut replaced or refretted? Someone replace the neck with one made for a different scale length?
Old 30th June 2009
  #34
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AudioWonderland's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
lalala
Pretty rude for someone asking for help.
Old 30th June 2009
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
That sounds almost impossible, honestly, unless the frets are just way off, which I assume they wouldn't on any decent guitar in this day and age.

Sometimes if the nut isn't correctly cut, then the strings can be too far up from the first fret. So you end up pressing them down at a fairly steep angle when you fret near the headstock, and that will make them sharp up there but not further down the neck. But that should straighten itself out well before you get up to the 12th fret, I would think.

And if the string height is too high in general then you can have issues with it going sharp as well because of how far you are pushng it down. But that should have made the 12th fretted note and harmonic disagree I'd a thunk. When you fretted at the 12th fret, did you fret it on the fret, or push down in between the frets?

Does this problem only happen when playing chords, or does every individual string go off to the same amount as you move from the nut to the 12th? And is the problem symmetrical, i.e. it starts going back up again after the 12th fret?

Does this guitar have a tremelo? If so, did you chock the tremolo while you were doing the intonation? If not, all kinds of wierdness can happen while you try to intonate it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
lalala
Strongly urge you go go to a professional luthier.

And I hope he charges you an arm and three legs.

[EDIT: Petelebu posted later that the lalala was sort of an typo, so please ignore my remarks above.]


Others who are faced with the guitar intonation conundrum may actually benefit from getting some insight into why a guitar -- like a keyboard -- that is 'perfectly' intonated to the 12 tone equal temperament system will never produce pure harmonic intervals (except for root and octave).

With that understood, here is some valuable instruction on learning to live with equal temperament on the guitar: Equal Temperament Guitar Tuning

(And, actually the last [bolded] link does a pretty decent job of explaining the basics of how ET effects guitarists. One could go straight there and refer back to the earlier links for further reference if he wanted more info/background.)
Old 30th June 2009
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu
lalala
What a ******
Old 30th June 2009
  #37
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Tone Laborer's Avatar
You could start by posting in the guitar forum. How hard is that?

Obviously, your dweeb-it-yourself setup / nut job has not gone well. Take your strat to a qualifed luthier.

It's hard to follow your incomplete tale of woe. Are 09s ever in tune?

I'd say switch to 10s, a must.
the tremelo springs could be jacking with you,
learn how to play in tune,
employ luthiers,
replace frets,
check for warped neck,
it's "relief" not release, and a fender electrics don't need much.
Old 30th June 2009
  #38
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

This would seem obvious, but I've seen it happen a couple of times. Make sure the strings aren't touching the bridge pickup. It's surprisingly easy to miss, especially if the pickups are black.
Old 30th June 2009
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
Gandy's Avatar
 

This is more likely to be a nut problem, or a setup problem.

You may find though it's just one of these things, for instance on my Tele ('50s MIM) if I tune the top E to the 5th fret of the B it's not in tune, I tune my tele with a D, if I get it perfect I'll have to drop the top E down a tiny bit for it to be in tune with other chords, then it's perfectly tuned, all the way up the fretboard. When I got it It was horribly set up, once I'd changed the saddles I gave it a full setup, and periodically intonate it and set it up.
Old 30th June 2009
  #40
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AudioWonderland's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
This would seem obvious, but I've seen it happen a couple of times. Make sure the strings aren't touching the bridge pickup. It's surprisingly easy to miss, especially if the pickups are black.

More importantly, make sure the pickup polepieces are at least 3/8" to 1/2" away from the strings or the mags will pull the strings out of tune. Also known as strat-itius.
Old 30th June 2009
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencahill View Post
Hi
Agree with Dean, sounds like either the action is too high, neck is warped or there is a problem with the tremelo (which would probably not manifest itself in this way).
Is the neck straight? There should be a hair of relief.

An 1/8 tone off is A LOT at the first fret, you can usually expect up to 6 cents sharp if the guitar is poorly intonated so it seems that the problem should be glaringly obvious.

Poor quality guitars can sometimes be lost causes in regards to intonation. . .

Not to hijack but has anyone tried this?
Earvana - Compensated Tuning Systems for Guitars

Ben.
This looks a lot like the Buzz Feiten system I have on my guitars. And I would ABSOLUTELY recommend it to anyone. It was definitely noticeable, and since we're all recording engineers too, anything that improves source sound for a relatively low price is totally worth it.
Old 30th June 2009
  #42
Schnert
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
by the way digital tuners sucks balls big time
lalalala

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
when you play with distortion, play a chord on the first frents, on any guitar, youll see that your strings will bibrate as out of tune
So, which intervals do you expect to sound in tune on a distorted guitar?
Old 30th June 2009
  #43
"Digital tuner suck balls big time"? Well, buddy then I guess you've gotta go buy yourself an original mechanical Peterson or Conn strobe because any other tuner you find that's worth a sh*t will be digital (including most new Petersons). That tuner will cost you nearly as much as the guitar. The only other non digital tuners I know of are pitch pipes and tuning forks, neither of which give a consistent frequency.

Rereading your earlier posts about guitars never playing in tune - you're right, they don't. Neither do pianos, organs or any other "equal temperment" instrument, which is why purists cursed with perfect pitch refer to them as "ill-tempered" instruments. Equal temperment is a compromise, because the harmonic series is different foe every starting note - only octave multiples are perfectly in tune.

I'm thinking that one or more of the following are true:

1) You badly bungled your nut replacement

2) You have perfect pitch and the dissonance of equal temperment bothers you, in which case you should drop the guitar and take up a non-fretted instrument

3) You are exaggerating the depth of your problem (1/8 tone???? Really???)

4) You're actually not serious and just having us on for jollies, in which case thanks a lot for the waste of time.


"lalalala" my rosy red ass!
Old 1st July 2009
  #44
Schnert
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
which is why purists cursed with perfect pitch refer to them as "ill-tempered" instruments
Actually, perfect pitch is aquired by being "programmed" listening to familiar pitch during childhood. Meaning, it's mostly always aquired from the equal tempered pitches on a keyboard. The fact that certain intervals are out of tune, depending on which key you are in, is not related to perfect pitch at all. It is a relative thing.
Old 1st July 2009
  #45
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Are you taking a dump on me when I'm trying to help you?
no man sorry i wrote you a long answer to your post then i got messed up with the letters on the answer you now wthe quote and stuff.
Old 1st July 2009
  #46
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Then either the nut is incorrectly located or the frets are. Is this a new instrument? Every had the nut replaced or refretted? Someone replace the neck with one made for a different scale length?
nope , stock instrument , besides the nut , 7 years old.
Old 1st July 2009
  #47
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Pretty rude for someone asking for help.
dudes after i answered to the buddy trying to help, i figured out that i messed up the text with the automatic letter on the box, sorry i wasnt making fun of anybody sorry.
Old 1st July 2009
  #48
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
What a ******
oh my god man, i got messed up with the automatic text.
Old 1st July 2009
  #49
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnert View Post
lalalala



So, which intervals do you expect to sound in tune on a distorted guitar?
all of them, or with a diference of 4 cents max.
Old 1st July 2009
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
dudes after i answered to the buddy trying to help, i figured out that i messed up the text with the automatic letter on the box, sorry i wasnt making fun of anybody sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
no man sorry i wrote you a long answer to your post then i got messed up with the letters on the answer you now wthe quote and stuff.
Ah... a good head of steam built up for nothing! heh Until you figured out what went wrong you were probably having a hard time figuring why folks were being so mean...


You can add a bit to your original 'lalala' post explaining that there was a "typing malfunction" and I'm sure folks will understand.

I'd leave the lalala bit in there and add something like
lalala

EDIT: oops! I messed up typing and... blah blah

The reason I recommend leaving the original lalala bit is that it got quoted in other folks' posts (along with their comments) and this way folks will be able to connect all the dots and see what happened.
Old 1st July 2009
  #51
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
"Digital tuner suck balls big time"? Well, buddy then I guess you've gotta go buy yourself an original mechanical Peterson or Conn strobe because any other tuner you find that's worth a sh*t will be digital (including most new Petersons). That tuner will cost you nearly as much as the guitar. The only other non digital tuners I know of are pitch pipes and tuning forks, neither of which give a consistent frequency.

Rereading your earlier posts about guitars never playing in tune - you're right, they don't. Neither do pianos, organs or any other "equal temperment" instrument, which is why purists cursed with perfect pitch refer to them as "ill-tempered" instruments. Equal temperment is a compromise, because the harmonic series is different foe every starting note - only octave multiples are perfectly in tune.

I'm thinking that one or more of the following are true:

1) You badly bungled your nut replacement

2) You have perfect pitch and the dissonance of equal temperment bothers you, in which case you should drop the guitar and take up a non-fretted instrument

3) You are exaggerating the depth of your problem (1/8 tone???? Really???)

4) You're actually not serious and just having us on for jollies, in which case thanks a lot for the waste of time.


"lalalala" my rosy red ass!
20 cents off, thats why i think i have a problem, i could live with 4 cents diference even if i find it annoying sometimes, but 20 cents off? and if you add the notes that go a little flat you have 20 plus 3 so it is actually 23 cents off at least.
Old 1st July 2009
  #52
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnert View Post
Actually, perfect pitch is aquired by being "programmed" listening to familiar pitch during childhood. Meaning, it's mostly always aquired from the equal tempered pitches on a keyboard. The fact that certain intervals are out of tune, depending on which key you are in, is not related to perfect pitch at all. It is a relative thing.
well i would like to believe that i have perfect pitch but i doubt it, is it that hard to hear the strings vibrating out of tune or something?, i learned to tune with pitch forks wich i love much more trusty than any tuner i have used, but no i dont have perfect pitch, not even close.
Old 1st July 2009
  #53
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Ah... a good head of steam built up for nothing! heh Until you figured out what went wrong you were probably having a hard time figuring why folks were being so mean...


You can add a bit to your original 'lalala' post explaining that there was a "typing malfunction" and I'm sure folks will understand.

I'd leave the lalala bit in there and add something like
lalala

EDIT: oops! I messed up typing and... blah blah

The reason I recommend leaving the original lalala bit is that it got quoted in other folks' posts (along with their comments) and this way folks will be able to connect all the dots and see what happened.
good idea.
Old 1st July 2009
  #54
Gear Guru
 
Sid Viscous's Avatar
 

This is why I only play Les Pauls. They come from the factory perfectly in tune and you never have to touch them...eva!
Old 1st July 2009
  #55
Gear Maniac
 

Experience

To the OP:

How long have you been playing guitar? Setting up a guitar takes experience and know how. It is not hard but takes time. Strats can get really out of whack with intonation if the pickups are too high. Go to Fender's site and set your guitar up to the factory specs. Start there.

Use a strobe tuner. Strats can be setup great without a trip to the repair man. You just need to know what you are doing.

Steven
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Old 1st July 2009
  #56
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AudioWonderland's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Viscous View Post
This is why I only play Les Pauls. They come from the factory perfectly in tune and you never have to touch them...eva!
I so hope this is sarcasm..... lol
Old 1st July 2009
  #57
Schnert
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
Quote:
So, which intervals do you expect to sound in tune on a distorted guitar?
all of them, or with a diference of 4 cents max.
4 cents? Then you need to study up on equal tempering!
It's impossible to get that close if you want to be able to play in all keys on a piano, or with different voicings/chords on a guitar. The major 3rd on a piano will be some 14 cents off, and expect the guitar to be worse. Add distortion on top of that...
Old 1st July 2009
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnert View Post
Actually, perfect pitch is aquired by being "programmed" listening to familiar pitch during childhood. Meaning, it's mostly always aquired from the equal tempered pitches on a keyboard. The fact that certain intervals are out of tune, depending on which key you are in, is not related to perfect pitch at all. It is a relative thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petelebu View Post
well i would like to believe that i have perfect pitch but i doubt it, is it that hard to hear the strings vibrating out of tune or something?, i learned to tune with pitch forks wich i love much more trusty than any tuner i have used, but no i dont have perfect pitch, not even close.
I suspect that what most folks think of as perfect pitch is probably a form of pitch memory.

From my highly informal investigations, many of the folks who claim perfect pitch that I've spoken with don't seem to be bothered by the out of tune intervals of 12TET (or occasionally see it as a separate issue). Some haven't had any awareness of the issue. Which would lead me to believe that they may simply be remembering pitches or the sound of pitches, rather than being guided by a sense of mathematically correct harmonic intervals.


By the way, when one first plunges into discussions of just intonation and various forms of temperament, it's easy to sort of jump to the conclusion that everything should be justly intonated -- but 12 tone equal temperament is a necessary set of compromises that makes possible western music as we know it. And other approaches to scales and intonation (from other cultures) involve other compromises and tradeoffs.


BTW, here are those links again:

12 tone equal temperament system [Wikipedia]

A practical guide ro precise tuning on the guitar: Equal Temperament Guitar Tuning
Old 1st July 2009
  #59
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Viscous View Post
This is why I only play Les Pauls. They come from the factory perfectly in tune and you never have to touch them...eva!
similar problem with a Gibson les paul custom.
Old 1st July 2009
  #60
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I suspect that what most folks think of as perfect pitch is probably a form of pitch memory.

From my highly informal investigations, many of the folks who claim perfect pitch that I've spoken with don't seem to be bothered by the out of tune intervals of 12TET (or occasionally see it as a separate issue). Some haven't had any awareness of the issue. Which would lead me to believe that they may simply be remembering pitches or the sound of pitches, rather than being guided by a sense of mathematically correct harmonic intervals.


By the way, when one first plunges into discussions of just intonation and various forms of temperament, it's easy to sort of jump to the conclusion that everything should be justly intonated -- but 12 tone equal temperament is a necessary set of compromises that makes possible western music as we know it. And other approaches to scales and intonation (from other cultures) involve other compromises and tradeoffs.


BTW, here are those links again:

12 tone equal temperament system [Wikipedia]

A practical guide ro precise tuning on the guitar: Equal Temperament Guitar Tuning
im sure that in my case equal temperament will not work as i always had this issue, but the problem that i have with my guitar goes beyon that, it reall y is ****ed up lol, i think im going to pitch the guitar to the frets im going to use and bring them to as close to one another as possible, at least for now, now i dont know if you have noticed but recordings with cheaper instrument but very well tuned ones sonud better than expensive instruments so so tuned dont you agree?, and by that i think a 300 dollars guitar will sound better than a 6k dollars one if the cheaper one is set to perfection and the other is so so tuned.
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