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Regards to the $10/hr studio time post
Old 5th February 2007
  #31
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svart's Avatar
 

I give bands free time in my studio if I like their work. Does that make me try any less to give them a good sound? Absolutely not. I appreciate the artist who really tries as hard as they can to really bring out the best work they can produce and I give back to the community by inviting them to recording sessions where I don't charge them a dime. I also own all of my equipment. I don't normally accept outside clients either as this is a personal studio.

On the other hand, there have to be at least 10 "studios" in the surrounding area, most of which are digi001/002 studios with minimal support in the area of mics, rooms, and other standard equipment. A lot of them are churning out tons of material, some of which sounds ok, most of which is crap. In fact, I've offered free time to bands who have refused my offer to go to one of these other facilities due to whatever attribute they feel is more important, mostly Pro Fools (which I do/will not use) and/or the fact that another band they know went there, etc.

In all the fact still remains that these "studios" are in demand and complaining will do nothing about it. Most just want their music put on a disc and although a better sound is sought, "good enough" is usually plenty for them. Part of this is psychological too, you work hard and put all your time and money into something and it tends to sound better to you than to someone who audits the finished product.

Old 5th February 2007
  #32
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filthyrich's Avatar
 

Here's my thought.

I used a behringer board for 4 years along with decent mics (57's, D112, Sen E-604, SP C1 etc) and an 8-channel Layla 20 bit soundcard. I recorded onto Sonar 2 and then 4. I charged 10.00/hr until I recently spent another 4 grand on my studio. Luckily, I have another 3-4 ready to invest.
I was paid 10/hr (sometimes less) to learn how to record. I never had a band that was unhappy with what they got. This was a second job/weekend-type deal in conjuction with my day job.
15 yr old kids with poor parents and ****ty gear playing good (or bad) songs deserve to be recorded too. They also deserve to sound "good" as opposed to a boombox recording or none at all.
Not everyone can afford record in a "pro" environment.

Don't get me wrong. I see the night and day differences as I upgrade to better pres, mics etc. However, I think the little guy with low end gear is an important part of the growth process for both parties. Just be happy that they got to record somewhere and ask about getting the vocals louder and the bass down during "mastering."

Sure kid...I got protools. I gotcher protools right here.

--Rich
Old 5th February 2007
  #33
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonboy79 View Post
Let me ask you this, why do you care what the little guy charges? If he or she is fine with it then what business do you have telling them they're wrong?
Where did I ever post that? I NEVER said to anyone ever that charging $10/hr was wrong.

There are studios like that here in Philly, and they send me business (they're usually not great at mixing, so they send their clients to me for that). And if a band can't afford to hire me as their producer, I send the business to a $10/hr studio. There's plenty of room for that sort of synergistic business relationships in just about any town or market.

I was responding to the poster who basically claimed that bands don't NEED to pay more than $10/hr, and pointing out how there IS actually a market for us more expensive guys.

-Eric @ Studio Curve Dominant
Old 6th February 2007
  #34
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant View Post
A great band would never settle for a mediocre mix. They don't have to. If the band really is great, they can afford a good mix.
uhmm. this is simply untrue. in the artistic fields, talent does not financial backing nor success create. I don't have to tell you that it DEFINITELY does not work the other way around. That a "truly great" band (or painter, sculptor, composer, writer for that matter) will "always find success" is a pipe dream talented, unsuccessful artists cling to in hopes that they will "someday make it." It just isn't necessarily true.

If all you can afford is a 10 dolla an hour place, then by all means hire that guy, it's better than not recording a demo at all...so what if the "engineer" is not qualified to charge 150 an hour, so what if he dresses up his ability and credentials. This is a capitalist society, and these people are in a business just like the rest. Are you big studios gonna cry about it? If you are truly a "qualified" engineer then these 10 dolla an hour blokes should be a speck of dust to you, not even on your radar. And neither are the clients they service.

Try your best, try your hardest. Just try, it is all we can do.
Old 6th February 2007
  #35
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by filthyrich View Post
I used a behringer board for 4 years along with decent mics (57's, D112, Sen E-604, SP C1 etc) and an 8-channel Layla 20 bit soundcard. I recorded onto Sonar 2 and then 4. I charged 10.00/hr until I recently spent another 4 grand on my studio. Luckily, I have another 3-4 ready to invest.
I was paid 10/hr (sometimes less) to learn how to record. I never had a band that was unhappy with what they got. This was a second job/weekend-type deal in conjuction with my day job.
15 yr old kids with poor parents and ****ty gear playing good (or bad) songs deserve to be recorded too. They also deserve to sound "good" as opposed to a boombox recording or none at all.
Not everyone can afford record in a "pro" environment.

Don't get me wrong. I see the night and day differences as I upgrade to better pres, mics etc. However, I think the little guy with low end gear is an important part of the growth process for both parties. Just be happy that they got to record somewhere and ask about getting the vocals louder and the bass down during "mastering."

Sure kid...I got protools. I gotcher protools right here.

--Rich

That's all that needs to be said.

But, I will say more... because I feel like it. heh

I have no concrete numbers on this, but it seems to me that right now there are more "studios" (both high end and low end) than ever before. Even with some bootleg operations charging pennies on the dollar, I'm willing to bet that there are more people than ever before making a living in the studio business.

So stop bitching. Do you seriously think anyone, and I mean ANYONE, will answer a lame Craigslist ad for a studio that consists of a computer and MIDI keyboard? I'm aware that there are plenty of these ads... but how many responses do you think they get? ZERO. Because while human beings are generally stupid, nobody wants to pay some ********* from Craigslist $10/hour for a crappy recording on a Compaq with an M-Audio midi controller. Most poor/young/struggling musicians know someone who will record them. They would rather pay their buddy in dime bags and have some fun recording a demo. And this is what most of these $10/hour studios end up being.

I record bands, but I don't advertise at all. I either know the people in these bands, or they are a friend of a friend. I don't charge outright, but I make it known to them why I am doing this (build up a sizeable portfolio and street cred so I can eventually charge a real rate) and let them know I accept donations. Every band I ever recorded has paid me more than I expected to be paid. Everyone has been thrilled with the recordings (even if I haven't). What has all of this gotten me?

Bottom line: This summer I will be recording a pretty legendary underground act and getting paid a very sizeable and very real rate, because one of the members of said band has been impressed enough with my results and hard work that I've done for one of his side projects.

So just because I've recorded a ****load of material without formally charging a fee doesn't mean I'm a ****ty engineer. I still might be a ****ty engineer, but it has nothing to do with my fees. fuuck
Old 6th February 2007
  #36
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant View Post
Actually, neither one of those considerations is highest on the list of a major label's priorities.

What they're really looking for, is acts that will go over well on Regis & Kelly, Total Request Live, et al. Because those are the first places they're going to send you for national exposure.

Acts like that only get noticed by the labels, because they're already competing with the labels on a local and regional level.

And in order to do that, you're back to needing something peeps in your region will want to pay for: A quality recording that sounds as good as the Foo Fighters, etc.

So you can make a cheap recording, and it will sound fine. But can you find 10K - 15K people who will be willing to buy it? Not so easy all of a sudden.

One in a million cheap productions end up like Kestral's, that fuel the fantasy that anyone can make a hit in their bedroom. Anyone can win the lottery too, but you're more likely to spend that $5 every day for the rest of your life and get nothing.

The truly ambitious music acts will pony up the $$$ for good production. I've found that you can get MORE business by telling people, straight up: "I am NOT the cheapest in town, that's WHY some people hire me."

YMMV

-Eric @ Studio Curve Dominant

Well I can't argue with you there. Those are the same idiots who buy Lexus and Infinity's because they somehow believe that a Toyota or Nissan is inferior. Reality is that besides being made out of the same parts, they both are capable of starting, stopping, going the speed limit, and getting you to work and back everyday. Not an all around fair comparison I know, but what you're talking about is marketing, not quality right? In the end, it's just peoples bull**** impressions of things.
Old 6th February 2007
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opium89 View Post
what you're talking about is marketing, not quality right? In the end, it's just peoples bull**** impressions of things
You cannot truly believe that.

No amount of marketing will make people buy recordings they don't want.

If it's MY marketing you're referring to - my mixes are on my website, and I always encourage potential clients to listen for themselves, and make up their own minds if I'm the right producer or mixer for them.
Old 6th February 2007
  #38
Registered User
 
Pericles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant View Post
You cannot truly believe that.

No amount of marketing will make people buy recordings they don't want.

If it's MY marketing you're referring to - my mixes are on my website, and I always encourage potential clients to listen for themselves, and make up their own minds if I'm the right producer or mixer for them.
A lot of MBA's in advertizing will tell you differently. Believe me, the "right" marketing/advertising can get some people to buy things they don't want or need. They just don't know it until after the sale.

BTW, some of those women on your Myspace are smokin' hot. Now that's advertising! (bet you get lots of hits now)
Old 6th February 2007
  #39
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Awww. I charge $10 an hour for mixing. :(
Old 6th February 2007
  #40
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
A lot of MBA's in advertizing will tell you differently. Believe me, the "right" marketing/advertising can get some people to buy things they don't want or need. They just don't know it until after the sale.
Oh but dude (and this is VERY important) - you don't get repeat business if you don't deliver on the client's expectations.

Bullsh&t marketing might get you some short-term $$$, but it's not sustainable. Besides this is Philly where word-of-mouth travels very quick.

Quote:
BTW, some of those women on your Myspace are smokin' hot. Now that's advertising! (bet you get lots of hits now)
If that advertises anything, it's my appreciation for beauty. And there's zero bullsh&t when it comes to that!

-Eric @ Studio Curve Dominant
Old 6th February 2007
  #41
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Awww. I charge $10 an hour for mixing. :(
And there is not one damn thing wrong with that!

But if you're good, you're eventually going to start raising your price.

And I hope you do!

-Eric @ Studio Curve Dominant
Old 6th February 2007
  #42
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filthyrich's Avatar
 

Why not?

Here's a link to a couple of songs I did from a very heavy hardcorish band that I recorded a while back. This was on a behringer board with 8 pre's (3246A Maybe? I don't have it anymore). Other stuff was a 20bit layla soundcard and sonar 4.0. The mics are listed up there somewhere. 40.00 Nady overheads too!!!
No outboard gear. Don't be too harsh. This is my crap version of what 10/hr gets ya. BTW, "wised up" is a little bigger as far as the sound. It's a better guage. Enjoy...or don't

http://www.myspace.com/outforrevenge

--Rich

Last edited by filthyrich; 6th February 2007 at 03:42 AM.. Reason: I forgot something that I recently remembered.
Old 6th February 2007
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasandi View Post
you dare to come in a SLUTZ den and badmouth Credit Cards?

whats the world come to?

however, i like the "clash of the morons" but the sequel was better..
Oops. Should have known I was going to get torn apart for that one!
Old 6th February 2007
  #44
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by filthyrich View Post
15 yr old kids with poor parents and ****ty gear playing good (or bad) songs deserve to be recorded too.
Why? I don't understand this mentality. Why do they need to be recorded if they're 15 years old and have bad songs? They should go practice and work on their "craft". (And yes, I use the term very loosely.) I'm sure the record companies would be extatic if they all quit recording so they would have less $#@% to sift thru to find something halfway decent.
Old 6th February 2007
  #45
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I don't think the $10/fr mbox studios are a threat to the big high end studios. I do feel they are a threat to the low-to-middle end project studios. It seems like these musicians think it's either an ssl or an mbox. I've got about 20k in my one room project studio. I've spent time and money tuning the room to not sound like ass. But I must compete with Billy Bob's digi 002 for the starving artist crowd. I get pissed everytime I look at craigslist because of this. It's not that I have a problem with people trying to get started in this, but I hate how they ruin the market. I recorded for free until I felt I was worth a ****.
Old 6th February 2007
  #46
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant View Post
You cannot truly believe that.

No amount of marketing will make people buy recordings they don't want.
<shaking head> Why do I get the feeling you have not listened to the radio or watched television for the last ten years? It's ALL marketing and that's the whole idea....To make someone buy something they don't really want or need.

I ask ya, who here *wanted* to buy a Britney Spears album? Justin Timberlake? Spice Girls? Pussycat Dolls? (YAK, I think I just vomited in my mouth......)

I haven't listened to your mixes but I'm sure you're worth every penny, but that's not what I we're talking about here. I think the belief that you are getting something better because we pay more for it is a very arrogant notion and not always true, though we all wish it to be. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting what you're worth and not under-selling yourself, but I find it humorous that you actually tell people this because it brings you more business. Not so much humorous I guess as sad to see how stupid and naive people have become.
Old 6th February 2007
  #47
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I think entry-level studios are great for entry-level musicians. Much better for green musicians to record a lot of their material than to save forever and then only record 3 songs. How will they know they've got the right 3 songs if the other 20 never got a listen?
I do agree that under-valued studios are bad for the market, but that's the nature of capatilism. Eventually, the cream rises to the top, and as these cheap musicians progress, they will discover that having a good mic selection and good pres in a good sounding room can make the difference between a good and a great product. And when they get to that level, that small difference could be what puts them over the top. That's the lesson the cheapskates may have to learn the hard way.
Old 6th February 2007
  #48
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filthyrich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Why? I don't understand this mentality. Why do they need to be recorded if they're 15 years old and have bad songs? They should go practice and work on their "craft"
Because the only way that they can realize how bad they are is to do 19 takes on each rhythm track and then hear a decent quality recording of a horrible song. At that point (or 3 years from then when they are a little more seasoned) they realize that you did an amazing job capturing and nurturing a complete novice. Because of your patience and understanding; you managed to keep them wanting to get better.

This; opposed to being in a pressure cooker environment where they are paying 30-40 an hour only to come out hating what they have. This is mainly because they are horrible. Keep in mind that they fight and complain the entire time and can't understand why,
"It doesn't sound like it does in practice."
The band breaks up and they learn the harsh reality the hard way. Good for you. You taught them.
I have no problem helping those 15 yr olds. Do you want to sit through that? (this is directed at no one). I love this site and appreciate all of the knoweledge I gain from people who know way more than I do.

-Rich
Phx, AZ (I really need to update my profile)
Old 6th February 2007
  #49
wes
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i am a 19 year old from salt lake. i opened my studio last septemper. i curently charge $25 an hour and work with all of the high school kids that play in metal and indie bands. these kids are really fun to work with even though most of the time they arent very good. i am glad i can give them a good recording for price they can afford. but i am woried that i dont charge enoufgh and i am undervaluing myself. So go to www.myspace.com/arciverecordingstudio, look at the equipment list and liten to my work then tell me if iam undervalueing myself and am causing harm to the enginnering community.
Old 6th February 2007
  #50
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picksail's Avatar
 

Oh man...

You mean I gotta jump out of another window?
Old 6th February 2007
  #51
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Grand View Post
Dude..that's YOUR opinion. You may not like Britney or Timberlake, but there are lots of people out there who do. Sure, for a big part they like these artists cause of their image, but music plays just as big as a role as marketability. You may not like catchy, radio-friendly pop music, but again.. that's only YOUR opinion. You may consider it crap, but it makes most people sing along, get up and dance, or whatsoever. Ultimately people buy music cause it makes them feel SOMETHING and evokes some kind of emotion in them.

"Image is all you need" is a hoax. I know several people who are signed to majors, and they (the labels) care A LOT about the songs. It's the most important thing. That's why Lesley Roy (new Jive Records signing) gets sent to Sweden to work with Max Martin. The label knows Max Martin will be able to deliver great, catchy songs. Just like he did with Britney, Backstreet Boys, Kelly Clarkson, and other artists. If it wouldnt be about the music, they would've just hired a PR firm, saved a lot of time and money, and still made a lot of money. But it's not that easy. It's still about the music. Without catchy music people wont give a rats ass about your marketing campaign.

And gimme a break. "Underground Hardrock Music" is not about marketing? It's about music? Those bands just do the same as every pop artist out there, they just label themselves "Underground" and say crap like "we dont want to be commercial, we want to keep it real". Still marketing.. just in a different way!

It's not opinion, it's FACT that when a label decides to market something, regardless of whether it's pop, ass-rock, or whatever, they literally shove it down our throats until we're gagging on it. I dunno, maybe you're too young to remember when we actually had choices of music to listen to and not every radio station in the US was owned by the same three companies.

And by the way, who in hell said "Underground Hardrock Music" is not about marketing? Or "Image is all you need"? Don't put words in peoples mouths (or letters on peoples screens =P).....I dislike that nearly as much as the Spice Girls. You're defending a counterpoint nobody actually made!
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