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New Sheryl Crow tune, or is it auto-tune?
Old 20th August 2005
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
Lemmie guess, you're mad cause she's rich and famous and you're not.
dundundunDUN! i am mediocrityman! i am here to use my superpowers to defend all crap when it is attacked!
Old 20th August 2005
  #32
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Hey she makes a product like any other successful business. Would you buy a new car if it wasn't all polished up ??????????????????

That's why they call it "Music Production".

They produced finished, good sounding music.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Even diamonds have to be polished.
Old 20th August 2005
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
Hey she makes a product like any other successful business. Would you buy a new car if it wasn't all polished up ??????????????????

That's why they call it "Music Production".

They produced finished, good sounding music.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Even diamonds have to be polished.

that's just it. i don't relate to music as just another product like suvs or tupperware. so called "finished good sounding" is usually sterile and without texture, personality, soul, or organic qualities. i don't like it and don't buy it. and crowe may well be hot but her music is FAR from diamond like...no matter how much you polish it.
Old 20th August 2005
  #34
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As with any artist, the music is what it is, and finds it's own fan base with those who appreciate it.

If it's not good enough for your precious ears, then don't listen.
Old 20th August 2005
  #35
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Perhaps you would enjoy Kasey Chambers more.....here's a 40 minute studio concert from KCRW , with a short interview....(you'll need Real Player to watch it)

enjoy !!

http://kcrw.com/smil/mb041105Kasey_Chambers.ram


Make sure you catch the last song, the acoustic version of "The Captain"....it's awesome......
Old 20th August 2005
  #36
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It doesn't bother me, I'm all for music production. Taking what is just the ordinary average artist or song and making it something of value. These guys who have a problem with compression, auto-tune, reverb, echo, time stretching or whatever, are trying to take away the tools of which we have to work with by dissing them and the artists that use them to improve the quality of their recordings.

Believe me, even the best singers out there go off key once in awhile....I've heard it...

It's also very much like makeup. Some women need it, some don't...you'll find out in the morning, where would we be without it ????

It's the producer/mixer's job to make whatever artist he is working with, to sound as good as possible, with whatever tools he has available.
Old 20th August 2005
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
It doesn't bother me, I'm all for music production. Taking what is just the ordinary average artist or song and making it something of value. These guys who have a problem with compression, auto-tune, reverb, echo, time stretching or whatever, are trying to take away the tools of which we have to work with by dissing them and the artists that use them to improve the quality of their recordings.

Believe me, even the best singers out there go off key once in awhile....I've heard it...

It's also very much like makeup. Some women need it, some don't...you'll find out in the morning, where would we be without it ????

It's the producer/mixer's job to make whatever artist he is working with, to sound as good as possible, with whatever tools he has available.

holy crap, i think that actually sounds right.


then again what defines "as good as possible" is highly debatable and sometimes the tools that are used for this objective squeeze what little personality there is right out of the music and you are left with something that has nothing unique or organic about it because it is so tuned (with autotune or 20 takes comped together. or both) and metronomic (because of clicks and beat detective) and lacking in dynamic range (because of all the compression and limiting and static quality of the arrangement/playing). sometimes it is the flaws and semi-intentional variations that keep us in touch with the fact that we are listening to a human being making music and that helps make it powerful.

some of my very favorite recordings have lots of funky bits in them and i think they only add to the impact because it puts that actual, real brilliant and technically polished parts of the performance in such stark relief. you think "will they pull it off?" and then they do. that's exciting.
Old 20th August 2005
  #38
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eligit
then again what defines "as good as possible" is highly debatable
Exactly! Look at what happened in the 80ies, what was considered 'modern' and 'as good as possible' then sounds HORRIBLE now in a lot of cases.

I hated it even then and never understood why people felt the need to adopt this production style to be 'contemporary'.

I said it before, if AutoTune really would make things better then I'd be all for it. But it just gives you the illusion of perfection.

I got a CD version of Sinatra's 'In the wee small hours' where the liner notes talk about how Sinatra would use the slight weakness in his voice in a certain register for expressional purposes. A slightly shaky note might be a means for expressing 'doubt' or 'heartbreak'. The problem is that the modern producer never even would consider such an artistic solution in the first place i.e AutoTune in permanent insert.

The 'AutoTune' syndrom is EXACTLY the same thing as the loudness race. 'Perfect' intonation and 'maxed out' mastering are achieved now. So where do we go from here? It's a situation that has no winners. The ones who rightly refrained from using these 'techniques' will be put under pressure by the 'industry' or even their peers: 'Your record isn't loud enough', 'Your singer isn't in tune' and eventually will join the crowd.

And friggin' why is it so damn important to have 'perfect' vocals when everything else is most certainly NOT pefectly in tune? What about Bass? Guitars? Horns?

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch
Old 20th August 2005
  #39
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
It's the producer/mixer's job to make whatever artist he is working with, to sound as good as possible, with whatever tools he has available.
Yes, I like that concept. And, I think the key phrase here is 'good as possible', which I take to mean being as 'good as humanly possible'. Once it crosses the line to become 'good as perfect', the end result is sterile and unattractive. I guess the trick is to find that optimal use of tools to produce stunningly sonic and emotional results. And, if the tools themselves are unintentionally discernible, then those results are not achieved.
Old 20th August 2005
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystr Tiger
Yes, I like that concept. And, I think the key phrase here is 'good as possible', which I take to mean being as 'good as humanly possible'. Once it crosses the line to become 'good as perfect', the end result is sterile and unattractive. I guess the trick is to find that optimal use of tools to produce stunningly sonic and emotional results. And, if the tools themselves are unintentionally discernible, then those results are not achieved.

This is where YOUR mixing skills become art. Discerning what sounds right and good....if a singer hits a squeeky note, sometimes that adds charature to the voice, and should be left in.....

If you listened to the above Kasey Chamber's video, every so often you'll hear a little sqweak, but overall it sounds great and that becomes part of "her sound"......which in her case, is a great feature....
Old 20th August 2005
  #41
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

not a particularly exciting tale, but true nonetheless: while working on my last song, one of the strongest, most important, most emphasized words in the tune was off pitch. not even close; i doubt the waveform would have ever crossed over the correct note on an autontune display.

the word was 'cold', and hit at the tail end of the phrase, 'leaves you cold'.

so i searched for that word / phrase in the other takes, and found several that were done well. but when i comped them in, something very real and very important got lost. it wasn't an editing or continuity thing, i can comp with the best of them. there was just something about that off pitch delivery that gave the whole line a dramatic payoff. despite my discomfort at leaving such a glaring 'mistake' in such a prominent position, i had to leave it in.

ironically, the ME specifically commented to me, 'some of those lines get a little pitchy, maybe they should be re-tracked?'

to which i could only respond, 'i know, and apparently they shouldn't'.

now any time i get fearful about leaving that stuff in, i just drop in some zep or some sinatra and breathe easy. perfection is the death of creativity.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 20th August 2005
  #42
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kevinc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
Lemmie guess, you're mad cause she's rich and famous and you're not.
That doesn`t make sense at all.

The singers that he DOES like were/are probably rich and famous as well.

Stevie Wonder was rich and famous he just didn`t suck. heh

I do think Sheryl has her charm though and I`m not a hater at all.
Old 20th August 2005
  #43
Gear Guru
 

I think it is fascinating that pop music seems to be moving in the direction of greater and greater "sweetness" in terms of pitch. So much so that even presumably competent singers are feeling compelled to digitally tighten up their intonation to the point of sounding like a vocoded robot.

And yet, at the same moment in history, rappers are selling millions speaking their lyrics without any pitch and mashing together samples from songs that are in different keys without a care in the world.

Some heavy bands are composing songs consisting mostly of feedback with hoarse screaming.



Old 23rd August 2005
  #44
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BB Bill's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great
http://entertainment.timesonline.co....743834,00.html

IT is live, but not as we remember it. Pop stars on the forthcoming Live 8 DVD will have their performances “improved” with computer trickery, attracting charges that the official record of the concert is being faked.

During the long hot day of July 2, several singers, including Bono of U2, went briefly off-key while the performance of others, such as Pete Doherty of Babyshambles, was dismissed by critics as an embarrassment.

Blushes will be spared thanks to a computer program called Auto-Tune, described by some as “Botox for the vocally challenged”.
no other live recordings in the history of rock'n'roll have been touched up? please. we were tuning pitchy singers with eventides WAY before autotune. took a lot longer, though.

Quote:
“By cutting up and reassembling notes it can erase the wrinkles and bum notes and make a karaoke drunk sound like Frank Sinatra,” said one technician, who declined to be named.
yeah, right.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #45
Gear Nut
 

what about jazz...they must have been drunk too.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #46
GMR
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All I can say is when I heard her cover D'yer ma'ker by Zeppelin she wasn't autotuned and man was that awful. Her pitch was terrible. They should of autotuned her to death cuz that sucked big time!
Old 23rd August 2005
  #47
Gear Nut
 
Micgiver's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K
My initial were (and still are) regarding Sheryl Crow as an artist and singer....

Blatant Autotune IS a real turnoff... Vibe killer.... Never noticed it being abused on a Sheryl Crow song... I will keep that in mind when I hear this new one.... what is it called?
Really..... never noticed on sheryl crow.......listen to the Alfie soundtrack. Jagger did the whole thing live at abbey road then they placed her voice pro tools direct over it.
F'n terrible.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #48
Gear Addict
 
Waylon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great
Big difference. Punch ins are still recorded performances by the artist. Auto-tune changes the performance.

And no, eq and compression have nothing in common with auto tune. Vibrato and note changes by the singer are part of the performance and artistry. Auto-tune changes these things dramatically.
but, what if the performance had everything, heart soul, timing, but missed a note? Auto tune could actually save it... punchign in in thouse situations is generally detremental to the performance.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #49
Gear Head
 
xtranscendedx's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
Lemmie guess, you're mad cause she's rich and famous and you're not.
for some reason djwayne has a hair across his ass about alot of things,and likes to push things waaay out of bounds and take stuff out of context.Like she's got money blah blah,i hate that response just because we say people suck people always jump up and say "oh its because they got money" noo it's because they suck!! oh and by the way i haven't heard this song in question.

final thing they way i look at music is how you perform is what you get it's our job to make it sonically better but quantizing **** and autotuning the hell out of stuff is bogus and fake period. tutt

ok rant over
Old 23rd August 2005
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute
I have never heard a single crow song that wasnt autotuned dfegad
Including the ones that were done before autotune came out?
Old 23rd August 2005
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtranscendedx
for some reason djwayne has a hair across his ass about alot of things,and likes to push things waaay out of bounds and take stuff out of context.Like she's got money blah blah,i hate that response just because we say people suck people always jump up and say "oh its because they got money" noo it's because they suck!! oh and by the way i haven't heard this song in question.

Hey you guys are the one's trashing people over their music......there's lots of music out there I don't like, but I don't post about it. It's you guys that are attacking people.....knock it off.

Maybe I should make a thread about music that makes me cringe, but I really don't want to do that.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #52
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oh baloney.......you guys have been trashing anybody who doesn't fall in to your clique. bad mouthing an artist or a product seems to be the norm here on gearslutz....geez even the name gearslutz is making me cringe.......
Old 23rd August 2005
  #53
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

The important thing to understand about AutoTune is that it screws up the timing of the vocal and that really can ruin the "feel" of a performance. VocAlign is one solution but that has its sonoc problems too.

Of course a great deal of contemporary tv star vocal phrasing sucks enough that most people don't notice... but that's a different problem...
Old 23rd August 2005
  #54
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and the next thing you guys will be sqwaking about is "Oh no, they applied eq to the voice and it really changed the charaturistics of the natural sound, this is phony, terrible......why can't they do it like they did in the old days. Quick, somebody give me some old Frank Sinatra albums to listen to......boohoohoo, Frank Sinatra never used eq.....why should today's artists use it, I'm really worried about the new talent nowdays, using eq to enhance their voice, it's just not right....boohoohoo.....I must have the same pre-amp and mic Frank Sinatra used.....to get that gloriuos sound......everything else is chopped liver....."



heh heh heh heh heh heh heh


It's not the shoes dudes.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #55
Gear Head
 
xtranscendedx's Avatar
 

for me it's not a "sound" issue it's peopel who can't sing or play in time and there are tools that can fix that for them and thats not right.You are being a FAKE!!
Old 23rd August 2005
  #56
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtranscendedx
for me it's not a "sound" issue it's peopel who can't sing or play in time and there are tools that can fix that for them and thats not right.You are being a FAKE!!

ahh! well here we go...

so what if the song sounded GREAT to you, and it was a GREAT tune and lyrics that had real meaning to you, you loved it and all that, but there was auto-tune and beat detective on it and it was applied so skillfully that you _could _not _tell?

So you listen and enjoy the song for a year and then later you learn that these tools were used to create this song that actually meant something to you. Do you stop liking the song?

just wondering...

Old 23rd August 2005
  #57
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Fake eh ??, Wasn't Frank Sinatra in the mob ?? Isn't that everybody was saying while in his hey day .....

I'll take somebody who uses auto-tune over a gangsta anyday.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #58
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq
ahh! well here we go...

so what if the song sounded GREAT to you, and it was a GREAT tune and lyrics that had real meaning to you, you loved it and all that, but there was auto-tune and beat detective on it and it was applied so skillfully that you _could _not _tell?

So you listen and enjoy the song for a year and then later you learn that these tools were used to create this song that actually meant something to you. Do you stop liking the song?

just wondering...

yeah, that's like all those people who wanted to return their Milli Vanilli records when they learned that Rob and Fab didn't sing; the MUSIC didn't change.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #59
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popmann's Avatar
Quote:
Id like to bang this broad auto tune or no auto tune. I'd especially like to bang her but make her stare at a picture of Limbaugh just to add to the humility.
I like the implication that there's something inheirently humiliating about sex with you...and that the picture would only ADD to it...
Old 23rd August 2005
  #60
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i only think that Mili Vanili should get their Grammys back, ASAP.

neither Ms. Aguilera Simpson Spears and colleagues sung. the engineers made it happen. btw, they use also playback live. what's the difference?

fortunately we'll always have the Crazy Frog.
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